Now that ML is gone, how are all you GM/RL's feeling?

[aikanaro]

On the short term? Personal loot will make the first two weeks easier for the Raid Leader. After that? Much, much harder and a bigger pain in the ass. Our group will practically throw loot at each other, so we're going to have a fine time trying to keep the raid moving while everyone tries to give everything imaginable away to everyone else in the raid. What took us 5 minutes, will probably take us more like 15 minutes.

You may not believe this, and it's your prerogative, but we MADE him go master looter from personal loot AND put him in charge as the sole person on the loot council. That's right, an entire guild just straight up told the guild leader that we trust him to divide everything appropriately and went on our merry way. To everyone in the guild, loot is a tool to getting to the next boss, and the real reward is taking bosses down among friends.

15 minutes? Maybe if you all have downs... you simply ask if anyone needs it they whisper you and you give it to them.. if multiple people need it, have them roll or base it off of their priority stats. For instance give haste gets gear to a vengeance dh but haste mastery gear to a druid..

[Spotnick]

How little do you trust your own people? If you still have to forcefully try to be in control of everything you should maybe just stop. that's just crazy.

I mean i understand the switch to dps loot role etc. that will probably be a common thing but you should at least be able to trust your people to play together.

I was ironic.. but if a BoE drop, I'm sure some people will be tempted to wait for the postman.

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How is it even fun to play in a guild like this?

It's not a question of fun, but what do you want to do? spend 10 minutes instead of doing trash so people can trade stuff between each other or just give it all to 1 person to redistribute it?

Goal of a raid team is to progress the group, not the individuals.. personal loot is completely against team progression as you might gear people who will bench the progression because they came to the farm, so this will result in more people benching instead of raiding to make sure the people who will work on progression will be in the group to get the loot.

I can't see how this will help guild groups.

[Lefrog]

We had a guild discussion about this the other day too. The sense of entitlement was so strong it was crazy. The system is now designed around the player, not the group. If gear drops for someone else, it is their loot, based on rng. Would it be cool if they gave it to you? Sure! But if they give it to their friend instead you shouldn't throw a fit. It was all RNG and you didn't win anything. Better luck next week. You may even end up the best geared player in 3 weeks due to lucky TF drops.

Anyone trying to control personal loot is living in the past or are world first tier...which is very few of us and they care more about guild ranking than gear.

Edit: i.e. there is very little correlation between PL and loot council when it comes to clearing raids for average guilds. You'll kill the boss with enough practice/when most people are not undergeared.

[JackWest]

Spotted, a toxic dictator who pretends he is starving his people for the well of his country.

May I offer you dioptre lens? You are so off the mark, you didnt even hit the target

[aikanaro]

this is why next logical step will be to disable trading of any loot besides BoE.

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this isnt about wow

this is about current generation of games who adore stuff like loot boxes.

just look how much more is blizzard making on lootboxes in hearthstone and overwatch compared to subs in wow.

the era of long grinds if long over - you live in era of lootboxes in rng - many people simply didnt notice the change.

loot what is most popular now - all games build around this model

this is what people want.

I don't play games with loot boxes... lol

[Salty Maud]

I feel that we are going to see a lot of suboptimal gear distribution during early weeks of progression thanks to forced personal loot. Player A gets the bis piece of player B but can't trade it due to it being of higher itemlevel than what he currently has, next boss player B gets the bis piece for player A and the same thing happens. People end up getting itemlevel but having poorly optimized gear. Of course when everyone is mythic geared during later stages of progress and on farm we'll effectively have master looter when most of the loot is tradeable but early in the tier forced personal loot is definitely a hindrance.

And ordering people around, telling them who they should trade their loot to is clumsy af. But blizzard knows better. Blizzard always knows better.

[Kreo]

We mostly used PL anyway, and just shared drop when i wasn't needed. Won't affect us but will screw with high progress guilds.
If you not running pick-up group, gear itself never the problem and it will come anyway. This is no vanilla with 2 items per 40 people.

[kamuimac]

I don't play games with loot boxes... lol

yes you do .

you have 3 loot boxes with literaly random drops at the end of each good time clear of mythic +

or 1 with shitty time

its literaly the definition of lootbox.

same like weekly cache.

[Fayenoor]

Remember how we used to pump gear in to Main tanks back in classic vanilla and tbc ??

And then they left to join the guild which needed 8 tanks for 4 Horsemen.
Remember those days only too well. Glad we moved on from there.

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Personalny cant wait for blizz making all loot untradable when toxic people will try to abuse others like this

Wow raiding is a team activity. You share loot with your team. Untradeable loot (just like the current personal loot crap) makes 0 sense.

[SirCowdog]

Reading your post made me realize how lucky we are to have forced PL so that we don't have to deal with nerdi toxic ideologies like yours. Thanks Blizzard.

We are delighted to be free from people's thought on who should get what. It is totally better to shard items you don't need than to have to deal with unfair and toxicness.

You know how you avoid toxic people in videogames? Don't join guilds or groups of them.

Also, who is this "we" you keep speaking of? Are you royalty?

[Nathasil]

Not good.

I'm RL of a f&f HC mode guild raid. We used both PL and ML during Legion...and while PL has advantages (It's fairer for people who come late/leave early, It's easy to pick up PUGs)...there is no way do deny its main selling point is ease of use. It's just great if you are lazy.

When we switched back to using ML it meant a lot of work for me, setting our old DKP system back up, which is arguably overkill for a f&f HC raid - especially with the piss poor difficulty of Antorus - but we felt like progressing together as a group again.

This is the main point, imho: Group Loot (any kind of group loot) makes you feel like a GROUP. You practise together, you kill something together, you loot it together ...and you progress together.

PL progresses each individual on his/her own. Which is not great for the feeling of being a guild and belonging together.

[Scrysis]

15 minutes? Maybe if you all have downs... you simply ask if anyone needs it they whisper you and you give it to them.. if multiple people need it, have them roll or base it off of their priority stats. For instance give haste gets gear to a vengeance dh but haste mastery gear to a druid..

Maybe a portion of us do. ^_- We do have a couple of trolls in the guild that are fairly hard to control.

We do try to prioritize giving gear to people to whom it is the biggest benefit. Not all of us have an optimized stat lists in our heads for every class, and a few lazy people don't know their best stat priorities (although, we did start cracking down on that last bit in Legion). What usually happens with our group on personal loot is that people will post the gear up in raid chat simultaneously, and confusion will reign. Who is rolling for which item? Is that warrior rolling for the pants, or are they rolling for the trinket? How many ilevels does optimized stats give versus giving someone a huge ilevel upgrade? Is it for main spec or off-spec? Is it something the person is experimenting with? Is it a person that is asked to swap specs alot? What about the person who didn't see the items posted to raid chat because it got spammed off screen? Then everyone stops and has to find the person they're trading with. Obnoxious.

RCLootcouncil with master loot made things so much easier. We posted notes to our rolls, the master looter could see what everyone was wearing and the notes, and then distribute it while the rest of the raid dealt with trash.

[Cel]

This is an odd one for me. I think PL promotes a better community over all (at least based off of personal experience), but removing ML so that it isn't even an option without a doubt takes away a groups freedom of how to handle drops (and not all forms of using ML were bad).

Through my past guilds I have experienced both forms of distribution, and while not talking for anyone else, ML was the #1 cause of guild drama, elitism, and people building drama filled hate factions against each other within the guild. But that wasn't exclusive to ML, it was just a function that spurred more negative players to be more vocal about, abuse and have something to cause a negative experience in the game.

I think the people blaming toxic player behavior on PL vs. ML are shortsighted and missing the mark. There are crappy people out there and it isn't ML that causes them to be crappy. Its just that ML is a easy tool for crappy people to take advantage of.


When it comes down to it, if the elitists would get off their high horse, they would realize that PL isn't a 'less fair' option. Its just a option with less freedom, and honestly, easily the fairest option (how can you get more fair the dumb luck?). When you have someone controlling and dictating where loot goes, there's always going to be someone feeling slighted in some way.

I think having PL for all scenarios save for in guild raiding is perfectly fine and ideal. But I do think it was a mistake to take the freedom of ML from dedicated guilds. Let them do things however they want. If it is some garbage guild with f'd up loot rules, leave it to the members subject to those rules to berate the GL/RL and leave that guild empty. Its not like anyone is pressured to stay in a guild unless its a 'want to stick with friends' sort of thing, but even then. Talk to your group of friends, talk to your raid leader and then decide to move on.

ML could be a problem, but I dont think ever was in a guild group as every person knows what they are walking into.

PL is great on everything else.

I disagree with PL making the game more like a solo game. I don't need my rewards to be metered out to me by someone else to feel like I am playing with people. We kill things together, but I don't see any need that we loot things together (unless of course its a unanimous decision by that group).


Once again. I think it was silly Blizzard removed it, but I see the reasoning for. Funny enough, with how causal this game has gotten, I don't see why anyone really has a problem with PL. People that talk about loot priority in a guild in todays content are taking this game way to seriously, just my own thoughts. But for me, the solution isn't to remove ML, its just to not join a guild that is overly anal about a trivial thing. Its less fun, so why would I play in that guild?

I find much more enjoyment of just being relaxed about it. People get what they get and I personally, and the people in my current guild, are more then happy to help out other members with trades when ever they get the chance. Easier, less thought involved, more convenient, more fun.

But for those that want to stress over the game and worry about the right person getting just the right drop (when back in the day it would make a difference but currently, not really) put out the highest possible numbers so they can pretend they are racing someone to a boss kill. Let them. There are people that like to and there are guilds for it.

[MidnyteTV]

What it really boils down to is a lack of choice. For those on here who like the change, it wasn't like guilds didn't have a choice to use PL last expac. Now guilds have lost the choice. That's what sucks.

Every guild is different. Different players, different goals, different attitudes.

If you wanted to be in a guild that used PL, join one. If you can't find one, start one.

Personally I think most guilds outside of Server-first/Top 200 World should be using a EPGP/DKP based system. Loot council should only be for competing guilds. PL for anybody else that wants to use it.

Overall the community will end up just accepting and some may even embrace the overall change. However, there are not as many GMs/RLs left in this game, and very few people capable/willing to actually do it. So taking away their one tool to control their guild is a mistake. But hey, what's done is done. Hopefully those effected by this that are for the change can live with it.

[Deleted]

Posts like this proves the best how needed and urgent this change was. Personalny cant wait for blizz making all loot untradable when toxic people will try to abuse others like this

What? People in raid guilds want to progress. Not being stuck at the patchwork boss cause the dps didn't get the lucky gear they needed to burn the boss fast enough.
Loot distribution happens for a reason and it's not for all the stories you might have heard off which are mostly made up by people who have no clue what is going or completely fabricated to begin with.

All this is going to do is prolong the process of loot distribution.

There is however a chance this will be reverted. They already made azerite armor tradeable. Now if they see what an utter garbage fire they started they might revert it again.

[kooz]

Ok, I am going to make it very easy for you to understand it also on, as you called it, a 'sociological' point of view.
The decision a person has to make towards anything in life drastically changes if a) their life is endangered depending on what decision they take or b) they merely have to switch a guild in an MMORPG resulting on which decision they take. So this concludes that your analogy is very VERY poor and can't be used in that regard.

And again, people had a choice. It's simple, you don't like the loot system a guild has, you leave that guild to join a guild which uses the loot system you like. Can't find a guild who uses the loot system you have? Make your own guild. protip: that's what self-reliable people do when they encounter a problem, they try to fix it by themselves and not wait for someone else to solve their problems.

it was next to impossible to find another guild as most blindly copied ML/council as the way to go, I used to look for epgp guild with no success unless I had to transfer and pay.

[Deleted]

Love how blizzard is delusional in thinking that higher item level is automatic upgrade when in most cases item with 10 ilvl less but good stats is better than higher ilvl item with bad stats and you cant trade it because its your highest and someone in group could have used it. I still have ilvl 300 ring with socket (crafted) that I cant replace because other rings are just terrible stats even 40 ilvl up.

So in the end blizzard is wrong yet again. They should enable trading of all loot and if people want to trade they will.

[JackWest]

it was next to impossible to find another guild as most blindly copied ML/council as the way to go, I used to look for epgp guild with no success unless I had to transfer and pay.

That gives me the impression there ARE guilds with the system you want. You just dont wanna go to them, because its not on your server. Well, guess what. You prioritize and make a choice. If that server is what you care about most, dont go around saying how there are no guilds with your prefered loot method

[kamuimac]

Love how blizzard is delusional in thinking that higher item level is automatic upgrade when in most cases item with 10 ilvl less but good stats is better than higher ilvl item with bad stats and you cant trade it because its your highest and someone in group could have used it. I still have ilvl 300 ring with socket (crafted) that I cant replace because other rings are just terrible stats even 40 ilvl up.

So in the end blizzard is wrong yet again. They should enable trading of all loot and if people want to trade they will.

you are in tiny minority

most of people dont play wow like this anymore.

itlv is king for anyone besides top 1 %

[Deleted]

Posts like this proves the best how needed and urgent this change was. Personalny cant wait for blizz making all loot untradable when toxic people will try to abuse others like this

So because you are so sad you won't leave a toxic guild like that EVERYONE needs to be punished.
Jesus Christ how sad can it get.