Saurfang vs Sylvanas, after the cinematic!

[neoda911]

I just hope we get to kill Saurfang at some point in this expansion.

crazy how horde players are so easy to kill saurfang lol. He did so much for the horde more then the current leader.

[sam86]

Except Horde was never about being against retreating. Horde was about never surrendering. Blackhand's forces retreated from Stranglethorn. Doomhammer retreated from Lordaeron. Garrosh retreated from Ashenvale. Your blatant misrepresentation of what Lok'tar Ogar is postulates that the Horde is a faction of retards that would die for no reason.

And Horde was never about not fighting dishonorably either. Old Horde used the enemy's dead against them. They used assassination to break Stormwind. They enslaved Red Dragons to fight the Alliance.

If you were looking to RP a viking you chose the wrong franchise. Which was obvious as far back as Warcraft I.

wtf u talking about, Thrall horde is not Guldan horde
lets start with clear points here
1) Doomhammer didn't retreat from Lordaeron, he valued honor about anything else, and that means punish betrayers over even winning battle, hence why he choose to willingly go after Gul'dan over wiping humans
2) The 'assassin' that broke stormwind was brainwashed by a human guardian under Sargeras control due to human ego, horde had no hand in it, blame humans or demons, whichever ur pick (but since u blame orcs for their actions under demon manipulation, why would u blame demons for manipulating humans? u should blame humans then to be fair, yes humans f8cked themselves by summoning orcs to Azeroth, not demons who played both parties)
3) already stated but old horde != new horde, in fact old horde in vanilla wow still existed and was enemy for both playable alliance and horde heroes, many dungeon/raids were against them too

[Minikin]

It still blows my mind that despite the fact that they've taken every step possible to make Sylvanas as evil and reprehensible as possible, then went the extra mile by also making her incompetent as well, she's still neck to neck with someone who was one of the most unambiguously liked Horde characters before this expansion. It takes effort to be this out of touch.

Mob mentality man. To think that saurfang was introduced to only be a quest giver....err...head taker (lol?) for the onyxia thing.

Long way we have come!

- - - Updated - - -

Honorable Orc allied race for the Alliance confirmed!

Blue eyed orcs for the alliance. Alliance gets HIGH orcs!

Edit: sorry, forgot to say confirmed in caps.

CONFIRMED!!

- - - Updated - - -

Not like they can take it back.

But then again I'd love to see how her fanbase deals with it. Let's see how they sell her death and destruction to her fans.

If she survives this expansion we have a tsunami. If she dies we have a tsunami. Either case have a flotation device ready!

[Mixxy]

Except, as has been countlessly repeatedly explained over the last 35 pages Saurfang's behaviour has been the very antithesis of strength and honour. Also, drop the cliche hyperbole already - Saurfang and Memeboi does not equal "all other Horde leaders"

Baine is openly opposed to Sylvanas, Rokhan and Lor'themar have no love for her, Ji is very much anti-war at this point, Thalyssra and Maya are too new to really KNOW Sylvanas yet...
In fact, the only Horde leader that does seem to like her is Gallywix.

And do we really wanna use Gallywix as the moral standard?

- - - Updated - - -

If she survives this expansion we have a tsunami. If she dies we have a tsunami. Either case have a flotation device ready!

My money's on her dying while saving the world from the "real" evil.

[Minikin]

Baine is openly opposed to Sylvanas, Rokhan and Lor'themar have no love for her, Ji is very much anti-war at this point, Thalyssra and Maya are too new to really KNOW Sylvanas yet...
In fact, the only Horde leader that does seem to like her is Gallywix.

And do we really wanna use Gallywix as the moral standard?

- - - Updated - - -

My money's on her dying while saving the world from the "real" evil.

Could be. They say she's not going to be Garrosh 2.0. personally rather than a Kerrigan Windrunner 2.0 I am hoping blizzard does something crazy insane.

Like some faction leader (not Anduin but anyone else is ok, preferrably lorthemar) goes on this quest and comes across some power that like the narru converted calia can convert a forsaken to complete life. So one up from calia (thus negating that intervention).

They use it on sylvanas. Removing her curse. Providing her with her humanity again. Removing her forsaken fantasy land dream. And then she becomes a general faction hero instead of leader. Forsaken go to that desolate council thing.

Why lorthemar? Poor guy needs some work beyond bandying words with alleria or jaina or sylvanas. Needs something of his own.

[Izual45]

My predictions:

* Syl will die off in some raids later and her trapped self will thank you, heroes, for finally releasing her from her prison.
* Saurfang will take over horde as warchief.
* A new threat will surface (Probably old gods) for which alliance and horde will have to put aside difference and work together.

So yes, currently standing with saurfang. He's a good guy, trying to make things right. Syl is just too cowardly, selfish, and, evil.

[Mehrunes]

wtf u talking about, Thrall horde is not Guldan horde

Thrall was passed the mantle of the Warchief by Doomhammer. There's clear continuation from Old Horde to the New Horde. On top of that, Garrosh isn't a member of Gul'dan's Horde anyway and he was the most Lok'tar member to Ogar in the New Horde. He still retreated when necessary.

lets start with clear points here
1) Doomhammer didn't retreat from Lordaeron, he valued honor about anything else, and that means punish betrayers over even winning battle, hence why he choose to willingly go after Gul'dan over wiping humans

Wrong. Doomhammer sent a half of his remaining forces after Gul'dan to punish him. He himself remained with the rest of the troops and kept the siege. When he realized he doesn't have enough men he lifted the siege and retreated to Blackrock. Which, imagine that, is not where Gul'dan went and as such still had nothing to do with him.

2) The 'assassin' that broke stormwind was brainwashed by a human guardian under Sargeras control due to human ego, horde had no hand in it, blame humans or demons, whichever ur pick (but since u blame orcs for their actions under demon manipulation, why would u blame demons for manipulating humans? u should blame humans then to be fair, yes humans f8cked themselves by summoning orcs to Azeroth, not demons who played both parties)

Wrong again. Garona was mind controlled by the Shadow Council, not Medivh.

3) already stated but old horde != new horde, in fact old horde in vanilla wow still existed and was enemy for both playable alliance and horde heroes, many dungeon/raids were against them too

You may state it 623 times and you'll be wrong. The New Horde is a direct continuation of the Old Horde. Even if it wasn't, how is it relevant to the topic of what Lok'tar Ogar means to the Orcs? Did the New Horde come up with it? No. Did they change its meaning? Also no.

And there was no Old Horde in Vanilla. There was Dark Horde that was a splinter faction created by Blackhand's sons. So you got literally everything in your post wrong. Congrats.

[Deleted]

Baine is openly opposed to Sylvanas

Baine is all mouth and no action. Opposed? Yes. A threat? Not remotely.

Rokhan

Has not voiced any negative opinion against Sylvanas openly or in secret - so scratch that.

Lor'themar have no love for her

I'll let Lor'themar explain this one himself:

"Sylvanas Windrunner was our kingdom's protector. Had she and her rangers not met Arthas with such fierce resistance, our people might no longer exist. She paid the ultimate price so that enough of us might escape to rebuild our fallen kingdom. When Arthas raised her as a banshee and turned her against Quel'Thalas, it broke all our hearts. I've had my share of disagreements with Sylvanas... But I will never forget her sacrifice. She was the Ranger-General of Silvermoon. Nothing will ever change that."

So scratch that too.

Ji is very much anti-war at this point, Thalyssra and Maya are too new to really KNOW Sylvanas yet...

That's three more not opposing her then - so, scratch them too.

In fact, the only Horde leader that does seem to like her is Gallywix. And do we really wanna use Gallywix as the moral standard?

An irrelevant question that lends no weight to your argument - your whole point poses that all the Horde leaders are opposing her, but Gallywix is another who is clearly not doing so.


So like I originally said, Saurfang and Memeboi are not "all the Horde leaders", no matter how much you try to headcanon the others into the mix.

[Deleted]

* Saurfang will take over horde as warchief.
* A new threat will surface (Probably old gods) for which alliance and horde will have to put aside difference and work together.

Plz no!, i am done with peace just because a other player starts to put mess in the world.
We can be enemies and have war the same time when we fight against a 3e NPC faction, no reason for peace to face old gods ect.

In WotlK we pushed Yogg back and we where enemies of each other.

PS i want a warchief that has more then two exp packs left, Saurfang dies of age soon.

[Ramz]

I might be naive but we have yet to see Saurfang act so while I am not happy that Anduin left him to escape, and I am disappointed that he was putting hope in oh so perfect anduin instead of taking matters in his own hands I believe things could change later.

We're in a really shitty spot. I want to fight for the Horde, but I detest Sylvanas and I also don't want to live under Alliance shadow and get approval from Stormwind. That is not acceptable.
I want some competent leader that could really use some good strategy to take Alliance down without being mustache twirling cringy villain.

There is no win here, no matter what is gonna be done it will be diappointing.

But after thinking about it longer I decided to side with Saurfang on my main after all, I can still act as double agent and with trust I have in Saurfang I could try to actually keep an eye on him and stop him if he actually does something bad, not to mention I don't want poor Zekhan to get in trouble. That's what I'm headcanoning now.

[Evilfish]

My predictions:

* Syl will die off in some raids later and her trapped self will thank you, heroes, for finally releasing her from her prison.
* Saurfang will take over horde as warchief.
* A new threat will surface (Probably old gods) for which alliance and horde will have to put aside difference and work together.

So yes, currently standing with saurfang. He's a good guy, trying to make things right. Syl is just too cowardly, selfish, and, evil.

No, Sylvanas is just good at showing the Alliance how stupid they are.

The fact is that's been the problem since Cataclysm, Allianceboiz with a hardon for killing Sylvanas.

The problem is if they kill her what happens to the forsaken? Are they gonna shit out a new identity for them in a patch? Maybe put them under guard again?

It baffles me how the nelf players cry their eyes out over being kicked, but the forsaken players are silent when they get worse. Hell, Blizz just threw nelfs a bone with the new Warfront where they are heroic and savage, nothing for the Forsaken to look forward to except the story telling them that if you picked forsaken you, you fucking edgelord forsaken, are evil and the Horde and the Alliance hate you. So unless they plan to either do that or reinvent the Forsaken, which is unlikely but I wouldn't put it past the current story team, I suspect that a lot of people are counting on something that does not seem likely to happen.

[sam86]

Thrall was passed the mantle of the Warchief by Doomhammer. There's clear continuation from Old Horde to the New Horde. On top of that, Garrosh isn't a member of Gul'dan's Horde anyway and he was the most Lok'tar member to Ogar in the New Horde. He still retreated when necessary.

U literally have the old horde faction in-game opposing both alliance and horde, every single lore source states that old horde - the one that drunk demon blood and still obey demons - IS enemy to both alliance and horde, how exactly it is same ? what u smocking ? go UBRS and fight see if the old horde will hug u or not, Doomhammer even said he has nothing with horde when he left, and only returned after Thrall show promise of new way for the horde, the horde was nicknamed the new horde btw in early days too to distinguish from the Old Horde (that has ogres, forest trolls, and mainly blackrock orcs and live at Blackrock mountain)

Wrong. Doomhammer sent a half of his remaining forces after Gul'dan to punish him. He himself remained with the rest of the troops and kept the siege. When he realized he doesn't have enough men he lifted the siege and retreated to Blackrock. Which, imagine that, is not where Gul'dan went and as such still had nothing to do with him.

so he sent half of his army after gul'dan, then retreated because it had nothing to do with gul'dan who was busy fighting half of his forces, yeah doesn't make sense
his retreat IS because of Gul'dan, it was either retreat from Lordearon AND kill Gul'dan, or end the war but Gul'dan escape and horde lose its honor, he picked honor (with retreat) over winning

Wrong again. Garona was mind controlled by the Shadow Council, not Medivh.

Are u trolling or serious ? Check The Last Guardian book, or even wowpedia her own page, she was brainwashed to kill the king during the disaster attack on Medivh, the same time that Khadgar got aged

You may state it 623 times and you'll be wrong. The New Horde is a direct continuation of the Old Horde. Even if it wasn't, how is it relevant to the topic of what Lok'tar Ogar means to the Orcs? Did the New Horde come up with it? No. Did they change its meaning? Also no.

Page 6 and page 26 of wc3 manual literally describe Thrall horde as the new horde, and even mentioned in Lord of Clans (page 214, 222, 235) too that Thrall horde IS new horde, and quest in-game that Etrigg give u describe the horde as the new horde, on other hand the alliance is considered the continue of the Grand alliance of Lordearon founded in wc2 as chriz metzen said himself, they dropped Lordearon name for obviously there is no more Lordearon

And there was no Old Horde in Vanilla. There was Dark Horde that was a splinter faction created by Blackhand's sons. So you got literally everything in your post wrong. Congrats.

half right half wrong, as u can see in their wowpedia page, they are the literal continue of the old horde (that u don't admit to exist, ignoring literally official cannon and pages i spent hours searching to prove) (source: chapter 7 of the story of warcraft on battle.net page), they aren't a 'splinter faction', they are literal continue of old horde, Thrall's horde is not related at all to old horde as belfs is not consider alliance anymore

[Deleted]

Lets make this clear...
1) There was the Iron Horde on Draenor, uncorrupted, pure.

2) Then they became Fel Horde, after they drank Mannoroths blood. Remnants of this Horde are scattered among whole the Azeroth to this day.

3) When Thrall escaped, he created a new Horde - faction we were playing from Vanilla to end of Wotlk, when Thrall f*cked up everything and gave warchief to unexpericened Garrosh.
3.1) During very early days of Thralls Horde, Grom recreated Fel Horde for few moments, but he was quickly defeated by Thrall + Jaina and he then freed all orcs from Mannoroth by killing him.

4) After Twilight Councils machination Voljin rebelled against Garrosh and recreated with us Thralls Horde by crusing the first version of revitalised Iron Horde of Garrosh.
4.1) Garrosh escaped and created second version of Iron Horde. They were crushed by us. Thrall cheated and killed Garrosh. Remnants of this Horde joined us at the end of WoD.
4.2) During WoD Guldan created his ,, new ,, Fel Horde and they were defeated by us at Hellfire Citadel.

5) Thralls Horde ended when Voljin died and Sylvanas became warchief. She recreated Horde to current form by her own view.
5.1) Saurfang starts rebelion against Sylvanas in attempt to revive Thralls Horde yet again.

--------
So if you count it, we have 5 versions of Horde... Iron, Fel, Thralls, Garrosh, Sylvanas.
Each of them is very different unique.
--------

Now to warchiefs - Ill only mention the ones that led ,, our ,, the Horde in WoW

1) Thrall + Voljin
He is great warchief, but he is too good-natured and naive. His Horde represents the ,, good ,, one.

2) Garrosh
He led the Horde as an true orc would and because of that, many people sees him as evil and cruel person. His Horde represents the effort to ,, make Horde great again ,,. But it backfired a lot, when Twilight council turned other leaders against him.

3) Sylvanas
She is a very pragmatic person with a high intellect. Because of that, she is not affraid to play without rules and sacrifice to gain something. Her Horde represents the ,, evil ,, Horde. But she is not evil, she is not killing because she likes it, but because it is necessary to achieve her goals.


----------
If i had to choose my faction, i would go with Garrosh. Because his Horde is what it was always supposed to be. Not good, not evil, just true Horde.
Thats why I hated to kill him and why I hate current situation where Blizz is trying to force Saurfang to warchief and recreate the ,, good ,, Horde yet again...

[Deleted]

hi there, I am still pretty new to posting on forums and just received an infracted / warning for a reply i made to someone called "Harbour" on first page.
can someone please explain me what exactly i did wrong as i see far worse comments that dont get infracted, maybe i'm missing some nuances as english isnt my native language, i mean i think i'm pretty ok with english but obviously i could be wrong since its ... not my native language and never studied it either.

Sorry if i made inapropriate comments and/or hurt someone's feelings, at this moment i just wanna know what i did wrong so i can avoid this in future comments.

Thanks in advance!

PS my reply is found on page 8

[Izual45]

No, Sylvanas is just good at showing the Alliance how stupid they are.

The fact is that's been the problem since Cataclysm, Allianceboiz with a hardon for killing Sylvanas.

The problem is if they kill her what happens to the forsaken? Are they gonna shit out a new identity for them in a patch? Maybe put them under guard again?

It baffles me how the nelf players cry their eyes out over being kicked, but the forsaken players are silent when they get worse. Hell, Blizz just threw nelfs a bone with the new Warfront where they are heroic and savage, nothing for the Forsaken to look forward to except the story telling them that if you picked forsaken you, you fucking edgelord forsaken, are evil and the Horde and the Alliance hate you. So unless they plan to either do that or reinvent the Forsaken, which is unlikely but I wouldn't put it past the current story team, I suspect that a lot of people are counting on something that does not seem likely to happen.

Well its not just nelf or alliance players but also a lot of horde, disgusted by Syl's genocide craze. She can happily kill her own forsaken and horde to maintain authority. In many ways she is actually worse than Garrosh.

A way of syl's soon de-throwning has been paved by the most recent cinematic. Alliance is appointing your new warchief, weather you like it or not. Azeroth has had enough of genocidal maniacs. I remember the cool minded Thrall who wouldnt go nuts but still didnt take shit from anyone. Its time horde moves from this understable label of universal villian to just another faction trying to survive, while horde fanboiz clinch to their dying goddess that will sacrifice these fanboiz if need be.

Vote Saurfang 8.1, Time to make horde civilized again.

[Deleted]

Well its not just nelf or alliance players but also a lot of horde, disgusted by Syl's genocide craze. She can happily kill her own forsaken and horde to maintain authority. In many ways she is actually worse than Garrosh.

A way of syl's soon de-throwning has been paved by the most recent cinematic. Alliance is appointing your new warchief, weather you like it or not. Azeroth has had enough of genocidal maniacs. I remember the cool minded Thrall who wouldnt go nuts but still didnt take shit from anyone. Its time horde moves from this understable label of universal villian to just another faction trying to survive, while horde fanboiz clinch to their dying goddess that will sacrifice these fanboiz if need be.

Vote Saurfang 8.1, Time to make horde civilized again.

Why I choose Sylvanas any day or https://i.redd.it/q6on2w8itxg11.png

[Furadds]

Why I choose Sylvanas any day or https://i.redd.it/q6on2w8itxg11.png

Did you read BfS ?

[canii]

Did you read BfS ?

Did you read it? I mean, closely. Because MrLogics point still stands while you don't seem to understand Syls motivations at all.

[Furadds]

Did you read it? I mean, closely. Because MrLogics point still stands while you don't seem to understand Syls motivations at all.

I did. And I kinda enjoyed it. And obviously some people enjoy misinterpreating.

[Izual45]

Why I choose Sylvanas any day or https://i.redd.it/q6on2w8itxg11.png

Lillian Voss was raised in an extrmiest group, Scarlet Crusade, which is also at odds with the Alliance. To them nelfs, dwarves, gnomes, worgen, drenai, and even humans that dont believe in their intolerance are enemies.

"The Crusaders are intolerant of all non-human races, regardless of alliance or affiliation. They believe that any and all outsiders are potential carriers of the undead plague - and must be destroyed."

But thats great, a Horde hero, specifically a forsaken is being taken as voice of reason. She wouldnt even have time to rebel before syl gets her killed for her pleasure.

Wrath gate, Before the storm - meeting event, battle for lordaeron, each time syl betrayed Horde by killing their own just for her own goals.

I remember there were garrosh fanboiz justifying his insanity too.

If you really think about it there is little difference between Lich king and syl.

You'll be better off with Saurfang.