If Blizzard had reverted to the old talent system

[MasterHamster]

Old talent trees is for RPGs
The new talent trees are for garbage action games and MOBAs.
I hope they go back to the roots at some point. Would also help making leveling less (completely) devoid of RPG elements when dinging, and realize you're probably not going to see any changes to your gameplay whatsoever for 14 more levels.

[mostvp71]

Old talent trees is for RPGs
The new talent trees are for garbage action games and MOBAs.
I hope they go back to the roots at some point. Would also help making leveling less (completely) devoid of RPG elements when dinging, and realize you're probably not going to see any changes to your gameplay whatsoever for 14 more levels.

Yeah, WoW is seriously lacking in the RPG department as of late. They need to at least make it so abilities and passives (baseline class + specialization) unlock with levels as well as the new talent tree + additional 120 talent. Azerite System can stay next expansion but no neck, no ap and convert it into a new glyph system.

[Xath]

That makes no sense at all.

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No, there was not.

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Yes, there is.

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Actaully, not really.

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As you leveled, maybe but that is a very small part of the game and it makes no sense designing a system around leveling. The current system is the same but easier to use, easier to set up and actually gives you reasosn to respec when the fight needs it. The old one was just worse.

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But it does.

It actually makes perfect sense old talent trees were like rpg talent trees if they could have gotten away with it they likely would have been similar to diablo trees but it would have been extremely punishing for new players or anytime they adjusted things if they didn't allow respecs and wow characters take way longer to level.

[Zeek Daniels]

WoW i cant belive people actually like the old talents over what we have now. There was absolutely no choice when speccing back then at least for my class the elemental shaman. AoE or single target was all the same. At least these days i can swap gear and swap specs depending on the situation. Back then i had talents like "regenerate mana equal to 10% of your Int every 5 sec, even while casting, Reduce cast time of lighting bolt and chain lightining, reduce cd of shock spells, reduce fire frost nature damage taken" and loads more uninteresting crap. Now i have things like Ascendance, Stormkeeper, Icefury, Primal elementalist, Storm ele, Call the Thunder, Aftershock. All these abilites i can pick from that are not just X stat gain or reduction.

New talent system is way better. I think blizz said this before. The reason they took out all the bloat in the old talent trees was so they could put it on the gear. All the secondary stats do what the old talent system did. Its baked into gear now. So in other words if we went back to putting that shit in talents secondary stats would be reduced to compensate.

[Chillside]

vanilla tree - my vote
tbc tree - my vote
wrath tree - my vote
cataclysm tree - my vote
mop and anything after that - fuck off.

My subjective opinion

[Noxina]

As you leveled, maybe but that is a very small part of the game and it makes no sense designing a system around leveling. The current system is the same but easier to use, easier to set up and actually gives you reasosn to respec when the fight needs it. The old one was just worse.

You can just as easy respec the old talent tree aswell though. It is some more clicks to be done to do it. They are practically the same thing, except the old one have more "choices", choices that made more sense in Vanilla/TBC when we had stuff like Hit rating. For instance, as a fresh 60 you'd pick all the Hit Rating nodes you could, so you would get that capped, then swap them out later when you got enough hit from gear.
The main difference was the sense of progression, we don't have that anymore. At all.

[MasterHamster]

Yeah, WoW is seriously lacking in the RPG department as of late. They need to at least make it so abilities and passives (baseline class + specialization) unlock with levels as well as the new talent tree + additional 120 talent. Azerite System can stay next expansion but no neck, no ap and convert it into a new glyph system.

Problem is that Blizzards wants every character within a certain spec to be more or less identical, other than talent choices. Talents is quite literally the only kind of choice players have to customize their characters power. Everything else is just a matter of gear. My proposed compromise with the new garbage system is that while leveling, there are smaller, rank talents and you're free to choose which to spend points in first.

But by the time you get to the next row you've filled them all. It's of course not ideal, since it's not really anything that makes any sort of difference at max level, but as long as Blizzard is invested in the current MOBA talent system at least it'd give leveling that tiny bit of satisfaction in spending a talent every time you level up. People want to parrot that it isn't interesting to put a talent to get +5% crit chance on x ability, as if it's more interesting to have those things unlocked right away, in the background.

Whenever I play other RPGs I am reminded just how much Blizzard has removed from WoW in order to make it more streamlined and more "fair" to everyone. We're not playing our own characters anymore, we're playing predetermined, perfect templates, where our own choices account for just a fraction (1 of 3 talents, 7 times). I am playing through Divinity Original Sin 2 and it is amazing what difference it makes knowing that your choices actually matters. If you make poor choices, your character will be worse in some situations. In WoW you're always good, and can only follow some icy veins guide on how to spend your 7 tiny customizations points (talents).

Other than gear, our characters are more or less identical clones. That's what happens when you remove the player out of the equation. Give me all those spell ranks automatically, give me everything I need baseline, let me choose my 7 talents and then the only factor is ilvl.

[Kill Broccoli]

The main difference was the sense of progression, we don't have that anymore. At all.

It's the game. Vanilla was heavily into the rpg, now we're in a mmo. Easier to manage and better on the newbies/casuals of today.

2004 alternatives were really poor so even with a steep learning curve the game grown. Today everyone is doing a open world mmo, think just at how successful is gta online. Did you think that it would have been such a hit if people had to spend 2/3 month levelling and another 2/3 to master their characters?

The progression we want has a cost too high for the current game revenue.

[Aggrophobic]

You can just as easy respec the old talent tree aswell though. It is some more clicks to be done to do it. They are practically the same thing, except the old one have more "choices", choices that made more sense in Vanilla/TBC when we had stuff like Hit rating. For instance, as a fresh 60 you'd pick all the Hit Rating nodes you could, so you would get that capped, then swap them out later when you got enough hit from gear.
The main difference was the sense of progression, we don't have that anymore. At all.

No, there were no choices or rather there was only one right choice and a lot of bad ones. You might not have known what was good or bad but the system was poorly designed and balanced and the new one is just better.

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It actually makes perfect sense old talent trees were like rpg talent trees if they could have gotten away with it they likely would have been similar to diablo trees but it would have been extremely punishing for new players or anytime they adjusted things if they didn't allow respecs and wow characters take way longer to level.

No, it does not. Thats a system that just won't work in a game such as WoW.

[Louz]

LITERALLY SAVED WOW

20M+ PLAYERS

*aggressive dubstep bass drops start playing with businessmen dabbing in the background*

If you make poor choices, your character will be worse in some situations.

Like when you pick a lazy passive over an active ability?
Like when you swap between AoEs and STs?
Like when there's a gimmick fight that utilizes a choice you wouldn't normally use?
Like there's a difference between PvE and PvP?

In WoW you're always good, and can only follow some icy veins guide on how to spend your 7 tiny customizations points (talents).

Let me quote that again just to make sure how idiotic you just sound:

In WoW you're always good

That's why everyone always gets orange parses on wow logs. Or maybe not? B-but they follow a guide?!

You see, my boy, since vanilla, god bless that perfect flawless game, there was this term "cookie cutter build". And websites that offered "talent calculators" where people shared these "cookie cutter" builds.

Yes, while you may have had more customization as far as gimmicky hybrid specs go, it's still a matter of finding these build on the internet and copying them.

What that also means is that if someone spots you not using a build that is generally approved, you're get at least questioned and told to "go look up the right spec".

[valky94]

while i do like choice, the old talents didnt give you much choice, the majority just went online and found the best build, with some alterations between fights (AoE, ST, Cleave), same can be done now with some specs where certain talents are better for AoE etc. the only actuall choice i can remember from old talents were the Weapon specialization talents for combat rogues and arms warriors, everything else was more or less copy/paste from the internet

[MasterHamster]

LITERALLY SAVED WOW

20M+ PLAYERS

*aggressive dubstep bass drops start playing with businessmen dabbing in the background*


Like when you pick a lazy passive over an active ability?
Like when you swap between AoEs and STs?
Like when there's a gimmick fight that utilizes a choice you wouldn't normally use?
Like there's a difference between PvE and PvP?


Let me quote that again just to make sure how idiotic you just sound:

That's why everyone always gets orange parses on wow logs. Or maybe not? B-but they follow a guide?!

You see, my boy, since vanilla, god bless that perfect flawless game, there was this term "cookie cutter build". And websites that offered "talent calculators" where people shared these "cookie cutter" builds.

Yes, while you may have had more customization as far as gimmicky hybrid specs go, it's still a matter of finding these build on the internet and copying them.

What that also means is that if someone spots you not using a build that is generally approved, you're get at least questioned and told to "go look up the right spec".

Pretty impressive display of intentionally acting thickheaded, mate.

[mostvp71]

LITERALLY SAVED WOW

20M+ PLAYERS

*aggressive dubstep bass drops start playing with businessmen dabbing in the background*


Like when you pick a lazy passive over an active ability?
Like when you swap between AoEs and STs?
Like when there's a gimmick fight that utilizes a choice you wouldn't normally use?
Like there's a difference between PvE and PvP?


Let me quote that again just to make sure how idiotic you just sound:

That's why everyone always gets orange parses on wow logs. Or maybe not? B-but they follow a guide?!

You see, my boy, since vanilla, god bless that perfect flawless game, there was this term "cookie cutter build". And websites that offered "talent calculators" where people shared these "cookie cutter" builds.

Yes, while you may have had more customization as far as gimmicky hybrid specs go, it's still a matter of finding these build on the internet and copying them.

What that also means is that if someone spots you not using a build that is generally approved, you're get at least questioned and told to "go look up the right spec".

The hybrid gimmicky specs were fun, enjoyable and made the game more flexible. Most of us know old talent tree won't ever return, but Blizzard can still increase class depth if they chose to. As I said multiple times, although I prefer the old system, I'd take the MoP system as well, glyphs, current talent tree, baseline honor talents, more baseline class abilities and spec abilities that are gained through just straight up leveling. I think 90% of us are tired of this Azerite/Artifact power BS, give the classes some depth throughout the entire game not just the end game, specializations are empty shells of what they once were especially at lower level before getting your artifact/heart.

[MasterHamster]

"Cookie cutter build" is always a funny argument. So now, instead of actually having the option to hybrid spec, or make wonky specs that excels at certain thing but seriously lacking in others, now you have cookie cutter builds for each boss, mostly just checking if anything changed from the last boss and changing a row or two.

Yeah nah, I prefer to be able to build hybrid stuff, even if there's always a mathematically optimal cookie cutter spec, because that is literally unavoidable in a game where numbers decide.


Edit:
Muh adapting to every fight

[Louz]

Pretty impressive display of intentionally acting thickheaded, mate.

Just having fun, buddy. I mean this topic pops up every couple of weeks, and people keep repeating the same stuff over and over...
-"It was so good!!!"
-"Not really"

The hybrid gimmicky specs were fun, enjoyable and made the game more flexible. Most of us know old talent tree won't ever return, but Blizzard can still increase class depth if they chose to. As I said multiple times, although I prefer the old system, I'd take the MoP system as well, glyphs, current talent tree, baseline honor talents, more baseline class abilities and spec abilities that are gained through just straight up leveling. I think 90% of us are tired of this Azerite/Artifact power BS, give the classes some depth throughout the entire game not just the end game, specializations are empty shells of what they once were especially at lower level before getting your artifact/heart.

Well, can get your dose of nostalgia once classic comes this summer. Can't wait to play the "weaponmaster warrior" spec, to just dump all the points in all the weapon specs, that'll be so gooooooood. I mean I know it's completely retarded and useless but it's my CHOICE, right?

I can't really associate with what you're saying. I prefer the design where I have about 6 abilities of different cooldowns and additional effects. No need for some arbitrary bullshit like spell ranks or spells from other specs that don't do basically anything, but you put them on the action bars to... fill the space? "Just in case?". For example, I love current enh shammy, and when I remember the times your rotation was made of constant shield refreshing or watching your retarded totem stack debuffs on a target (hoping it actually attacks the one you want to attack), or JUST WAITING FOR A PROC to then dump the rest of the abilities, I just can't not think it's better now.

Not saying the current azerite system is perfect, but it's not as bad as the vocal people paint it. At the moment, I'm curious about the revamp that's supposed to come with 8.2, which, so far, sounds like a mix between azerite traits and old-style talents. Except not shit, like +1/1/1% crit to an ability, but more themed stuff that comes from azerite gear.

[mostvp71]

Just having fun, buddy. I mean this topic pops up every couple of weeks, and people keep repeating the same stuff over and over...
-"It was so good!!!"
-"Not really"



Well, can get your dose of nostalgia once classic comes this summer. Can't wait to play the "weaponmaster warrior" spec, to just dump all the points in all the weapon specs, that'll be so gooooooood. I mean I know it's completely retarded and useless but it's my CHOICE, right?

I can't really associate with what you're saying. I prefer the design where I have about 6 abilities of different cooldowns and additional effects. No need for some arbitrary bullshit like spell ranks or spells from other specs that don't do basically anything, but you put them on the action bars to... fill the space? "Just in case?". For example, I love current enh shammy, and when I remember the times your rotation was made of constant shield refreshing or watching your retarded totem stack debuffs on a target (hoping it actually attacks the one you want to attack), or JUST WAITING FOR A PROC to then dump the rest of the abilities, I just can't not think it's better now.

Not saying the current azerite system is perfect, but it's not as bad as the vocal people paint it. At the moment, I'm curious about the revamp that's supposed to come with 8.2, which, so far, sounds like a mix between azerite traits and old-style talents. Except not shit, like +1/1/1% crit to an ability, but more themed stuff that comes from azerite gear.

Boy, you are thick headed, when did I say I wanted to go back and play Vanilla? I personally thought Vanilla was shit. Then again if I was bad and concerned about my class having to actually take skill again with the addition of new abilities I’d probably get defensive and act like a child like you are rn too :^). We get it, you enjoy pressing 6 buttons and calling it “fun” but for the others who enjoyed the game when it wasn’t just mongoing your PvE rotation into other players the game sucks. The adults are talking in this thread go to bed.

[Noxina]

No, there were no choices or rather there was only one right choice and a lot of bad ones. You might not have known what was good or bad but the system was poorly designed and balanced and the new one is just better.

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No, it does not. Thats a system that just won't work in a game such as WoW.

Then HOW is the new one better? It is literally the same amount of choices, either you pick the right one, or you pick the shit ones.

In Vanilla you could go a bunch of different paths to be honest, depending on your playstyle. Don't believe, fine, but that was how it was. Sure there was always that one way to go that would put you ahead, but then you also needed the gear to assist it (ie. having the right amount of hit rating from gear, so you could take a different path in the talent tree).

What I've been saying though, is that back then we had a sense of progression, a sense that we actually got stronger as we played and leveled up. Now you toss in a new talent every 15 levels or what ever it is and that's that.

It felt like an MMORPG, and not an MMOMOBA or what ever you should call current WoW.


Also we had the ability to go hybrid back with the old system. Shockadin as an example. Was it as good as everything else? No, but sometimes a video game is about having fun and not pushing the 0.1% which almost no one here does anyways.
I could bet most of the people playing WoW could pick what ever talents they wanted, and wouldn't notice a DPS/HPS difference, simply because they get the whole class wrong from the start.

[Denso]

It's a trade off. You need to chose either
a) somewhat balanced classes/specs
or
b) really in-depth talent specializations

I prefer the first one so I like today's system. Only criticism I would have is that nothing really has happened since level 100. Could do with at least one, if not, two tiers more on the current tree. I mean sure we have Azerite powers and we had the artifact, but these are temporary things.

[Noxina]

It's the game. Vanilla was heavily into the rpg, now we're in a mmo. Easier to manage and better on the newbies/casuals of today.

2004 alternatives were really poor so even with a steep learning curve the game grown. Today everyone is doing a open world mmo, think just at how successful is gta online. Did you think that it would have been such a hit if people had to spend 2/3 month levelling and another 2/3 to master their characters?

The progression we want has a cost too high for the current game revenue.

Vanilla WoW was a super casual MMO back then, which is why it got to so popular. Now it's so stupid casual a toddler can play it.

[Armourboy]

Honestly I hated the vanilla talent system. In vanilla there is only 1 cookie cutter build that rules them all. There was no depth in them or any real choice.

with current talents, there is a real choice depends on the situation "usually" they are far easier to balance. I am however still unsatisfied with current talent system because I think they can be expanded into more depth.

No there wasn't, in Vanilla you didn't play the same spec all of the time unless all you did was one thing. Raiding specs weren't optimal in PvP, PvP specs could hamstring you in PvE, and often there were talents that were really good for leveling but not for raiding/pvp. That doesn't even bring up farming specs.

If you only used one spec for everything you were not using the best spec in some other part of the game.