Could Tyrande beat Nathanos in the actual lore?

[Super Dickmann]

SDM's got the right train of thought here--Nathanos was given plot armor because Blizz never really addressed their core problem with the Forsaken, that Sylvie was the only one of any noteworthy ability and the rest were just varying degrees of yes-men to her.

It's not really a characterization issue. The races being hiveminds with some exceptions is a given. The Forsaken actually have a decently robust cast, especially compared to how dire the tauren are with having only Baine and Hamuul or the Darkspear having Rokhan and Gadrin, it's just that they don't see much use. That and Blizzard are lazy. Rather than making Belmont, Faranell or Lydon Warfront commanders, we have Sira whining to us about how life is pain. Why? It's not because they don't remember them, they're there. It's because if Sira is a zombie, then they can mirror the boss fight with Maiev.

The real issue is much more basic and much easier to solve by people who can't write for shit. Personal power. There are no Forsaken other than Sylvanas who have a chance against Tyrande or Malf. Tyrande didn't need even more of a power boost. So they either need to buff some up or, what would have been better, have it be something like Maiev vs Nathanos, since they're closer to the same power level. Or you know, the best option, which was to have Tyrande kill Nathanos and have him later raised at the cost of a Val'kyr. It gives the Alliance a win, has the same end result, since the two bints can be raised earlier on and it allows Sylvanas a modicum of depth by giving some of her lifeline away to save her boytoy.

[DemonHunter18]

Sylvanas should have died when she met Malfurion.

she gained buff like no other.

luckily, I follow gameplay lore.

[laplacedemon]

End result - even though Tyrande wins and is shown to be superior to the point where even buffed by the Val'kyr one of our A-list characters can't do much of anything to her, Alliance players are still unsatisfied.

To be honest, if Tyrande and Malfurion were to just plow through the Horde without anyone being able to stop them until the Horde is no more, some Alliance players would go "Yeah but where was Vindicaar?".

It's not only the lack of Horde characters though, it's not like they couldn't provide some buff/character development so Rommath/Thalyssra could go against Jaina or maybe we could see something fun like Liadrin vs Tyrande, but I think they want to keep it close to the Sylvanas' inner circle so they won't even have to redeem those characters involved. If Sylvanas is evil and only actively supported by Nathanos, rest of the Horde is fine -to serve the next evil Warchief.

[Jester Joe]

he was empowered by fodder Valkyrs that no one even heard about.

Sure, but the val'kyr we've seen serving Sylvanas are far weaker than those the Lich King held under his thrall. Alliance redshirts have been able to hold their own against Sylvanas's val'kyr, and an Alliance adventurer early in his career is directly responsible for the death of at least one of the ones personally tied to Sylvanas's respawns.

It wasn't just any old Val'kyr, it was two of the last ones that the Lich King created.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Brynja

Brynja was one of the nine Val'kyr to enter a pact with Sylvanas Windrunner.

The nine Val'kyr were the nine left after the Lich King died.

[DemonHunter18]

no one give two shites about those Valkyr's.

comparing it to Elune...

damn...

[Ielenia]

I just don't get it that Nathanos somehow survived a deity powered being.

Tyrande could beat Nathanos even before her "night warrior" ascendance. Nathanos is nothing but a walking corpse with a bow, while Tyrande, on top of being very skilled with a bow, also has magic as part of her repertoire.

[Reinhart11]

This has to do with how barren the Horde cast is and how overpowered the Alliance one is in turn.

Blizzard decide they want to do a Forsaken v. Night Elf Warfront. On the night elf side, you have two who are already basically demigods in Malf and Tyrande. Forsaken wise, you have one character at that level, that being Sylvanas, and she's off limits because she's A) Warchief, B) Busy being evil. This leaves Nathanos, since all other notable Forsaken are also basically normal people who happen to be skilled. It must be Nathanos because he's the only other A-lister. God knows you're not going to have the Alliance story be about Shandris, Maiev and Tyrande and the Horde one about like Helcular or some shit.

So you set up your Nathanos vs Tyrande fight. Except before you've even started they've decided that Tyrande is going to get an even bigger buff, rather than say, a race-wide one to tie into the night elves reclaiming their identity as something other than doormats and pumpkin farmers. Tyrande would logically win, and she does, but you can't make the Horde guy look entirely useless, that's reserved for our main contenders for Warchief, so Nathanos still raises people even though he loses. End result - even though Tyrande wins and is shown to be superior to the point where even buffed by the Val'kyr one of our A-list characters can't do much of anything to her, Alliance players are still unsatisfied.

Actually, could have been interesting to see for example High Apothecary Faranell's "true abilities" (instead of turning him into a nobody), for example turn him into a guy, that can control the blight on a frightening scale and has some very nasty, strong alchemist skills which pose a lot of danger. Or introduce a Lightslayer character for the Forsaken (although Voss kinda fits that part already), or turn Belmont into a powerful Dark Knight(like they had in the old lore) or Death Knight. They had the opportunity to build up characters through Before the Storm or in the short stories for War of Thorns. All of these potentiell characters would have been better in my opinion, with more potential, compared to someone like Sira. And the Forsaken could definitely use some more proper characters. But this is sadly true for most Horde races.

But these writers are just to incompetent to even accomplish the most simple things.

[Jester Joe]

no one give two shites about those Valkyr's.

comparing it to Elune...

damn...

Tyrande isn't Elune.

Tyrande was empowered by Elune, and Nathanos was empowered by two of the strongest Val'kyrs remaining.
Calling them "fodder val'kyrs" is just false.

[Super Dickmann]

It's not only the lack of Horde characters though, it's not like they couldn't provide some buff/character development so Rommath/Thalyssra could go against Jaina or maybe we could see something fun like Liadrin vs Tyrande, but I think they want to keep it close to the Sylvanas' inner circle so they won't even have to redeem those characters involved. If Sylvanas is evil and only actively supported by Nathanos, rest of the Horde is fine -to serve the next evil Warchief.

Nathanos is a weirid case. He's the Horde character with the most lines and screen time and there are moments where you're clearly meant to back him - see for example him going all "For the Horde" to his orcish buddy in the Darkshore trailer, and his various dubious looks when Sylvanas does something especially evil. On the other hand, he shoots Zelling and while that might be perfectly justified given his conduct, Blizzard don't want us to see it that way. He's the one character I'm not sure if he'll get Nazgrim'd or not. I hope he makes it, since he'd be able to maintain the Forsaken's identity as compared to their massacreing by Calia.

Onto keeping evil contained to Sylvanas' inner circle, eh, all Horde races do it and do it with gusto all the time. I doubt that's the ground.

@Reinhart11

Voss is funnily enough a character with a decent level of power who'd do for that kind of thing. Beefing up Belmont to be a proper Lightslayer or introducing one of the RPG Shadow Ascendants could be cool. As could making the Apothecaries pull some Putricide-style body modification on demand. This would all fit with the Rule of Cool Blizzard write by, it's not all that hard. But I think the reason they're not bothering is because in the event Calia takes over all the prior Forsaken characters are going to the bin.

[DemonHunter18]

Tyrande isn't Elune.two of the strongest Val'kyrs remaining.

feats anywhere???

still no match for regular Tyrande.

it was BS, simple as that.

[Jester Joe]

feats anywhere???

still no match for regular Tyrande.

it was BS, simple as that.

It's literally stated.
They don't NEED to accomplish anything at that point.
You're flat out told "Hey these are the last 9 Val'kyr made by the Lich King. That makes them stronger and they're the only ones that are able to bring back Sylvanas if she dies again".

I don't know what more you want. She killed one, that doesn't mean TWO with the Horde champion isn't enough to at least delay her, which is what happened.

[Coronius]

Nathanos is a ranger, whose only redeeming qualities in Sylvanas eyes is unconditioned loyalty. He didn't get hand-picked due to his combat prowess or power.

[DemonHunter18]

It's literally stated.
They don't NEED to accomplish anything at that point.
You're flat out told "Hey these are the last 9 Val'kyr made by the Lich King. That makes them stronger and they're the only ones that are able to bring back Sylvanas if she dies again".

headcanon.

also, Nathanos is a b*** man.

[Reinhart11]

@ Super Dickmann

Sadly, that will probably be the case. No blight for you anymore! You have to love humans now! Maybe some of them survive, if Sylvanas doesn't die and goes her own way, no longer being part of the Horde. I don't expect the writers to kill Sylvanas like they did with Garrosh. I expect more something like turning her into a Death Goddess, who will be redemed at the end etc. Something cringeworthy like that.

[DemonHunter18]

I'm confident my char would solo Nathanos LoL.

[Super Dickmann]

Sadly, that will probably be the case. No blight for you anymore! You have to love humans now! Maybe some of them survive, if Sylvanas doesn't die and goes her own way, no longer being part of the Horde. I don't expect the writers to kill Sylvanas like they did with Garrosh. I expect more something like turning her into a Death Goddess, who will be redemed at the end etc. Something cringeworthy like that.

Sylvanas achieving apotheosis and becoming a Helya-equivalent for the Forsaken who ensures they don't burn in hell when they die is something I'd unironically support. It'd mean the Forsaken don't have to change and can maintain their current identity, it means she's finally out of the plot without some hamhanded redemption story where she realizes the glory of human potential. Sure, it'd be awful for her in-story opposition, but fuck 'em, they're a lost cause. It won't happen though because it flies in the face of the message about muh honor they're shoving down our throats.

[Verdugo]

I'm confident my char would solo Nathanos LoL.

I am confident you would not, since you needed to be saved from him.

[Jester Joe]

headcanon.

also, Nathanos is a b*** man.

Why are you on the lore forums if you're going to argue based on your feelings and not actual facts.
It's not headcanon, you're just wrong.

After the defeat of the Lich King, only nine of his Val'kyr remained. These nine bound themselves to Sylvanas. To seal the pact, the strongest Val'kyr Annhylde sacrificed herself to save Sylvanas. In Silverpine, Agatha, Daschla and Arthura sacrificed themselves to revive the Dark Lady once more.[16] In Andorhal, Aradne was killed by Alliance forces.[17] In Darkshore, Brynja was killed by Tyrande Whisperwind.[18] Of the nine, only three Val'kyr are left who are strong enough to revive Sylvanas: Signe, Kyra, and one other.

Multiple Lesser Val'kyr maidens were spotted in the skies during the Battle for Andorhal, and though they can raise corpses[19] these lesser Val'kyr are not part of the original pact and are thus not strong enough to revive Sylvanas. How exactly they are created remains unknown, and where they dwell now is a mystery.[20]

[DemonHunter18]

I am confident you would not, since you needed to be saved from him.

PIS.

plain and simple.

got a lag in the middle of a fight.

- - - Updated - - -

Why are you on the lore forums if you're going to argue based on your feelings and not actual facts.
It's not headcanon, you're just wrong.

you don't understand fam so I will stop here.

[Verdugo]

PIS.

plain and simple.

got a lag in the middle of a fight.

Sure buddy, your LFR hero is worthless.