It Will Be A Different Vanilla

[Fascinate]

FYI we had tools & brains even IN VANILA that even after those years you are UNLIKELY to find a hole in our theorycrafts, calculations etc.

What is different is people might know the content more with expansions having MC, Naxx in them and general mechanics didnt change, but not many have an idea how the content looked alike with vanila numbers, gear, talents and some mechanics were changed that made the fights MUCH harder due to people slight mishaps to whatever they have seen later. Yes the general encounter complexity, design changed, player skill cap increased over the years, but the top players in vanila wouldnt differ that much in terms of current top players.
I can proudly say to myself that since vanila till 2013 when I finished raiding I was a top 10 player worldwide for a class that was considered the hardest to pull the numbers.

FYI we even had calculated what is better, T3 chest or robe of the archmage or other setups for mage on patchwerk based on the fight lenght that would change as your gear progressed. I personally was working hard on theorycraft during MC times to discover pretty early that spelldmg items were BiS untill very late BWL/AQ items.

And anyone pulling their numbers from Private servers, n... please xD

Kids always think they can do it better than their fathers, just let them think their meta is the real vanilla im sure they will have a rude awakening with classic lol.

[Gungnir]

If anything Wolfshead makes things easier, not harder. With Wolfshead Helm you actually have enough energy for a Shred immediately after shifting, which makes it A LOT easier to maintain.

Well yeah it becomes easier to actually do damage, but the general rotation becomes more complex.
I might've worded it a bit iffy.

[Sorcereria]

Well yeah it becomes easier to actually do damage, but the general rotation becomes more complex.
I might've worded it a bit iffy.

The rotation wouldnt be even close to hard to next expansion levels since AFAIremember the shifts were instant compared to later introduced 1.5sec CD on shifting out and in.

[jakeic]

The reason you didn't see druid tanks in "major raiding guilds" is because of one fundamental flaw in "druid tanking": they cannot get "uncrushable" status. There is next to no leather equipment with +defense, and rings, trinkets and neck piece aren't enough to even get close to said status. Which means they get hit by critical strikes. A lot.

And their agility + talents are also not enough to give them a "decent enough" dodge rate to tank raid bosses consistently. And... lack of decent defensive cooldowns, though this last part I'm not so sure of.

I'm pretty sure uncrushable was from shield block, getting defense to a certain level removed crits.

- - - Updated - - -

If anything I just hope people dont take it too seriously, I'm fine with top end guilds losing their rag over minor crap, but if everyone adopts that behavior, we're going to have a shitty release.

There will be some guilds making unreasonable demands and some that won't, the best thing you can do if you want to play some off-meta stuff is befriend someone who is important (like warrior MT or dwarf priest) so that they can include you in whatever. Once you get your foot in, if you show that you're not a moron, most people will accept whatever.

[Mihalik]

When, if crushing blows become a problem the druid can just go with a Defense setup since there are enough gear to get Def capped. It saccrifices a bit of Armor and Health but defenetly reachable.

No they fucking can't. There was never any proper leather tank gear in Vanilla. Druids never had a viable way of preventing crushing blows. The only tanks that could were Warriors (as long as they weren't being hit simultaneously by multiple adds, which is why Stratholme was so difficult on tanks), and Paladins could reduce the chance of getting Crushing blows with using a specific seal+libram, it wasn't 100% safe, but you had a proper chance of not getting squished.

Druids just couldn't. At all.

[Ielenia]

I'm pretty sure uncrushable was from shield block, getting defense to a certain level removed crits.

Yes. You're right. I accidentally conflated the two, but they're separate issues. Which makes the "druid tank" situation even worse. Druids cannot get "uncrittable", because of the severe lack of +defense on leather.

"Crushing blows" are a chance of the mobs 4 or more levels above your character (i.e. raid bosses) dealing 150% their normal damage on you. And yes, crushing blows can crit.

"Uncrushable", if memory serves, was defense, shield block, dodge and parry all put together, and they had to add up to a certain number. Which, again, druid tanks were unable to reach back in vanilla.

I think the number to hit to reach "uncrushable" was 124?

[craigw]

there will be little to no progression in there raids, in the new release of vanilla. it will be a faceroll. shit is different now. there is no need for a community to work together to succeed. there are already guilds formed online waiting for the release. strategies of all bosses are detailed the fuck out. websites already 100% logged all content in the game. thotbot required players to upload their data. thotbot was not that great as some say. yeah it was good after the last raid was released. but all the info was uploaded and all strategies were written out on gamefaqs. barrens chat will not be the same. there will be twice the amount of players now as back then, but we will have 5 times the amount of guilds clearing raids. when real players with unpredictable movement and actions are partly responsible for your nostalgia, it will never be replicated. will I play......damn right I will. Im playing cause im sick of handouts. I want gear to mean something.

[Zulatomten]

No they fucking can't. There was never any proper leather tank gear in Vanilla. Druids never had a viable way of preventing crushing blows. The only tanks that could were Warriors (as long as they weren't being hit simultaneously by multiple adds, which is why Stratholme was so difficult on tanks), and Paladins could reduce the chance of getting Crushing blows with using a specific seal+libram, it wasn't 100% safe, but you had a proper chance of not getting squished.

Druids just couldn't. At all.

Now, here's someone who is uninformed. Sure, there wasn't any leather gear with defined defense. But all Gloves, Belts, Helms and Shoulders in the game that had randomized bonuses were and are able to roll "of Defense"
Like "Mighty Gauntlets of Defense", it says it should had 20-21 Defense rating but the website is updated for TBC and in classic they would have 14-15 Defense on them. Shoulders and Helms had 19-20 Defense. Matching them with 3pieces of T2.5 and the other best tanking items(Rings, Enchants, etc) you are able to reach the defense cap.

You could argue the benefit factor of saccrificing stamina and armor for defense. But the fact that Druids arn't able to get defense cap is very wrong.

[tikcol]

And yet there's still a lot of things that you missed.
It's a matter of simple math. You had around two years with the game that was completely new, they've had 7 years with the same game but the same old players.

You're effectively trying to argue against people with nearly 10 years experience of that system.




And yet, this one mage called Vurtne completely revolutionized mage gameplay in PvP because no one else was doing what he did.
Just that tells you a lot about the general skill level back in the day.
You even have videos of cutting edge guilds back then with players that spent their time clicking spells.

I mean shit, just look at Grim who was argued to be one of the better rogues back in the day, and compare him to literally any current day player.
With time comes experience and knowledge. People ALWAYS get better with time, that's a universal constant, that's basic human physiology.


To say that skill level peaked in 2005, in a brand new game, is facetious at best.
That's like saying Counter Strike skill level peaked in 2001 compared to 2011.

Just to illustrate your point further, Vurtne is what you now consider an average mage. Back then he was a god

[Mosotti]

There is only one little problem: you need to find 39 people that will accept you as a druid tank instead of a warrior tank. You need to be really fucking convincing, so I don't think classic will be different from this point of view...

Also there might be some major surprises on the real game, people have been playing for the last 12 years or so on different flavors of private servers, which are really not the same.

[Mihalik]

Now, here's someone who is uninformed. Sure, there wasn't any leather gear with defined defense. But all Gloves, Belts, Helms and Shoulders in the game that had randomized bonuses were and are able to roll "of Defense"
Like "Mighty Gauntlets of Defense", it says it should had 20-21 Defense rating but the website is updated for TBC and in classic they would have 14-15 Defense on them. Shoulders and Helms had 19-20 Defense. Matching them with 3pieces of T2.5 and the other best tanking items(Rings, Enchants, etc) you are able to just reach the defense cap.

You could argue the benefit factor of saccrificing stamina and armor for defense. But the fact that Druids arn't able to get defense cap is very wrong.

You seriously say you could tank, let's say...Twin Emperors or Ragnaros in fucking greens? And your guild would be okay with it?

And that your guild would funnel BiS rings and trinkets into you from AQ40 so you could defense cap and tank Stratholme? You are literally saying you'd need half BiS items and random garbage item to suboptimally tank farm content?

All that, or just get a fucking warrior?

[Canield]

If anything I just hope people dont take it too seriously, I'm fine with top end guilds losing their rag over minor crap, but if everyone adopts that behavior, we're going to have a shitty release.

Its 2019. That's exactly what is going to happen. Look at BFA. Minor dps discrepancy will prevent you from being invited to a +5 key.

[Cempa]

Its very funny when people think that we had no main spec versatile classes not get offspec items for other than raiding on a farm content.

We did, I remember we had decked boomkin, Enh shaman with sulfuras and later with even better weapons having fun on farm content. Was it possible? Yes, was it viable on progress or non farm content? No. The downsides were bigger than the versatality they brought.

Who remembers one of the guilds pulling a CRAZY idea in NAXX having a specially prepared SEMI PUG raid that evolved from theorycrafting?
I bet not many... Let's see who can point what I am talking about. I cant shed more light becouse it will spoil everything. Like we werent creative back than right?
@Zulatomen On some encounters you could have had a druid tank due to the leeway you had on bosses hiting like pussies. On some you didnt - end of story, the druid would have goten 1shoted. Even damn hunter pets could have tanked if we follow the same idea. Possible? Yes. Viable? No.

About the skills of people I wouldnt go too much into having current players having an upper hand. Old games used to be much harder than current stuff. It's very difficult topic and we will never agree on that.

What single boss ability could do that much damage? Druid tank had what 13k or 15k?

In any case a raid is going to have x2 Warrior tanks so why not the 3rd tank be a druid? Some encounters where last stand and shield wall are not needed a Druid could be of value!

[Drusin]

What the fuck is "dual wield fury tank"?

That's not a thing. That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works!

The very first time I tanked I was fury with a shield in Ramps Either BC or Wrath don't remember

[Mihalik]

The very first time I tanked I was fury with a shield in Ramps Either BC or Wrath don't remember

Wrath. BC content was massively neerfed by that point and many of the instagib mechanics and clunky class mechanics were removed or fixed.

Healers also got infinite mana so they could freely spam now max rank by default heals.

If it were BC you would have been murdered by 3rd trash pack or the first Rogue backstab.

[Zulatomten]

You seriously say you could tank, let's say...Twin Emperors or Ragnaros in fucking greens? And your guild would be okay with it?

And that your guild would funnel BiS rings and trinkets into you from AQ40 so you could defense cap and tank Stratholme? You are literally saying you'd need half BiS items and random garbage item to suboptimally tank farm content?

All that, or just get a fucking warrior?

Note that i havent included any items accuired past BWL and ZG to reach Defense Cap.

But yes, i've played on [Private Server] and tanked Ragnaros and several other bosses in both MC and BWL(Razorgore, Broodlord, Drake Trio) during our progress through the content. We wasn't Dreamstate(a Guild on [Private Server]) levels of hardcore but we did have above average progress.
I didn't use any of these pure defense items either, because it wasn't needed. Sure, i wasn't defense capped but that didnt matter anyway. I had so much health and Armor that they were just slightly larger hits. Even though our warriors would stack consumables and other buffs to increase their stats. I still had more than them without the consumables.

But no, unfortunatly we couldn't do testing Twins on the [Private Server] PTR before the server was shut down. Don't think it would have mattered even if i were to tank Twins either. AQ is where Bear gear realy starts to get good.

And on the part of "or just get a fucking warrior?" Since Druids only share a Neck, a Cloak, two Rings and 1 Trinket with other tanks up in all of MC, BWL and ZQ. I'd say it would be stupid not to have a Druid alongside several Warriors. Even if you'd dont use the Druid to be the main tank, having one as an off-tank is just an asset rather than an obstacle.

[czarek]

I recall how rare it was to see Druid tanks in major raiding guilds, and offspecs/hybrids as well.

This time round willing to bet that will change. I think we will see people going for those specs and doing well -especially druid tanks.

https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ntent/35613/96

https://docs.google.com/document/u/2...CDZdxC7lEE/pub

Ofc. Player knowledge about the game is pretty much better now and it is not all about druid tanks but in general. I remember when I and my bro lvled in vanilla 1st chars. We just push all the way stamina at max (hunter and mage :P). I really didnt know what does every spell/skill do for sure back in the days. I didnt know a proper build till i lvled up 60 and do some MC with guildes. Now i know how to build every spec before i run the game :P

[Niwes]

As I said, they're free to play however they want as you are. You are also free to decide who to play with, as do they. What's going to be funny though, is people like you still crying over not getting invites anywhere on these forums, cause you wanted to go down a path that most people told you not to, simply because it does not works as effectively as other classes. Nobody wants to carry someone else's weight just so that they can be a special under-performing snowflake.

And no, corpse runs in raids like MT and AQ40 could take 20 minutes at the very least when you were deep in the instance. It's not just running back, it's rebuffing, people going on small breaks waiting for others, thrash respawn, and all that shit, which is just a mess. It's 40 people after all. Easy way to spot players who never played Vanilla are idiots who say all it takes is 5 minutes to run back to your corpse, SMH.

Probably cause you never got past the first bosses running hybrid builds lol.

it seems you TOTALLY missunderstood my answer lol replace my 5mins (i meant the time solely for running, and even this is sometimes too less) with your 20mins and i say exactly the same as you. i HAVE exactly the same oppinion like you so you must have totally missunderstood me. or i do not get it.

i play this game since may 2005 without any interruption ever (yes, i have that bronze orc statue from blizz) and i have raided a lot in vanilla. so i remember myself very well to the corpse runs through the dessert, down the fat chain, into MC until you finaaaaally reached i.e. majordomus.

some ppl here, that maybe started with MoP, will have a hard wakeup when they start jumping into classic

and no, i would not advise to play some special snowflake hybrid spec in classic you CAN play druid if you are ok to heal in 90% of all raid cases. you CAN play pally, if you are ok to sit a full raid evening to be called for 5mins. you CAN play shaman if you are ok to be a cleanse bot. but otherwise... i would play 1 of 5-7 specific specs

[Maudib]

I don't think I agree with that. I think the skill potential of players then and now aren't significantly different. If you're suggesting the same individuals have a higher skill cap, then again, that contradicts the definition of what a skill cap is. It's essentially like IQ, you can't really change it (aside from lowering it by damaging your brain). If they play better now then they did back then, they just weren't playing at their skill cap then.

Again, I don't think we're disagreeing other than the semantics and you using the term "skill cap" incorrectly.

I'm OK with disagreeing if you are.. If used as an overall measyremnet... skill cap COULD mean the maximum a player will ever be able to achieve.

When used as a measurement over time, a skill cap of a player is as good as they CURRENTLY can play. Increasing your skill cap is done through practice and challenge.

Is the overall skill cap higher today than 15 years ago? How could it not be? As people are exposed to more challenging games and systems (consoles) with complex button sequences.

As many would state, the complexity of raids 15 years ago was considered HARD... and yet... Blizzard continues to increase the complexity expansion after expansion... this is because the player skill cap increases over time with practice and increased challenge. If they were to stop increasing radi difficulty, it would be see as "EASY" or boring.

With that said, there are lazy players... those who complain that the dungeons got too hard in the beginning of Cata. They did not want their skill cap to raise... they do not enjoy challenege... btu rather just "going through the motions" to get rewards.

Blizzard addressed this with 4 difficulties of dungeons and raids. "Something for everyone" Only to find that this approach, providing an easier path for everyone and it's generally accepted that people take the path of least resistance, ended up being detrimental to the game overall.

In he context of this thread... I do believe that people have higher skill cap than they did 15 years ago. This will result in all specs being played to a higher level of performance... allowing some marginal specs to perform better than before.

It really is common sense. I think we just are debating semantics.

[Niwes]

It's cute that you think this way. Sure there were some exceptional players "back then"... but there were also many, many, many keyboard turners. People who wore spirit gear, people with weapon enchants because it glowed.

To say that today's gamers as a whole are not more skilled, knowledgeable, and gaming savvy is just ludicrous.

Of course the encounters back then were much less complicated than today's... and that's because PEOPLE were much less accomplished gamers.

Yes, classes/specs that were deemed unusable back then, may very well be commonly used successfully in Classic. Period.

mmhm... no. lol. just no.

i played at 6 guilds in 2005-2007. none of those guilds was small, because... 40men raids ya know. the stupid ppl „just“ hold their chars up2date by enchanting correct and known their stats etc. the not-so stupid ppl have a lot of excel tables calculating rotations and so on, to do the best possible performance. because it was 2005 and no websites told you what to do cause of armory REST service. hint: armory just not existed.

yeah, there were that guys here and there, running around with agility gear as clothie or something. but these players were not in a guild and if, surely not raided. its the same type of player that you can meet today, just with the difference that they can not have wrong stats or gear, but have nothing enchanted, wrong trinkets, etc. these ppl are the same and same rare but just look different, because game environment changed. the game let look being stupid in 2005 just in another form than in 2019. but the relations and behaviours are the same.

so, i do not know what you wanna argue here, but yes, on classic servers there will be ppl that have no glue. but you will not see much from them, because they hardly become sorted out, because a raid lead/council that have to have manage 40 ppls and their ideal time investment, on a realm (without any cross realm stuff) that have maybe 4-7 raiding guilds, will never even consider inviting them.

obviously you not played at this time in history. otherwise you would have an imagination how much these ppl are gone with the winds. they just not show up anywhere. because you have just 2 things you can do, pve wise: raids and dungeons. in raids these ppl never will show up. and in dungeons, that take around 2 hours btw, these ppl will get kicked out after invited and inspected. and since there is no matchmaking, anonymous lfr and no cross realm, these ppl will not show up often anywhere. and after a while they quit anyway.

but you will see all that on your 2-3 months on classic servers, if you can handle them that long, before going back to live servers do not get me wrong, i do not wanna be salty here. its just that there will be a lot of ppl that test classic servers. but classic is DEFINETELLY not for everyone. especially the younger generations that have low time commitment and are trained to hop in and out in their free time activities. the small crowd of ppl that exists on classic servers after 1 year, will be a special kind of target audience. not the masses.