[Spoilers] Safe Haven Cinematic

[Karlz0rz]

your example doesnt apply here

It's magic. It doesn't have to make sense! Maybe hitting the neck in that region disrupted the flow of magic in the nether of the universe and beyond, into infinity, killing it. Why overthink things? Just enjoy the cinematic .
Magic. End. Of.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

It's strange to see that Outland is still somehow inhabitable after all these years of bleeding water and being tossed about in the Twisting Nether.

Was kinda hoping to see him in the Doomhammer armor with the hammer itself returned. Maybe there's hope for that in another cinematic later on down the line.

If Thrall doesn't become Warchief again, then I sincerely hope Baine becomes the next Warchief, and that he's rendered in a cinematic.

Aside from Baine's story, this was the most interesting development in the expansion since the launch event.

[Syegfryed]

it depends of how much damage the twisting neck broken did, im pretty sure a big strong orc would do more than a normal twisting.

for sure undeads have this inconsistency, but this is appropriate, way more than just an arrow like with Zeliek , not a fan of super powered undeads narrative either.

[Thetruth1400]

I'm honestly not quite sure why this merited a cinematic. Nagrand does look good of course and more cinematics is never a bad thing, but this could have been a small in-game scenario. Maybe give the Alliance a cinematic that's 100% about them for a change or something.

The salient story points are quite simple; Thrall does not want to be Warchief again but was more or less persuaded to come fight for (and, well, against because BFAlol) the Horde even before the Forsaken showed up.

Speaking of them, Saurfang followed them? Does that mean Sylvanas really sent assassins to kill a retired Thrall of all people, or were they just anticipating Varok's movements?

It "merited" a cinematic because it's a Horde story line with Blizzard's Mary Sue character returning. It's also progressing one of the main stories that Blizzard wanted to tell this expansion, to give a reason for both factions to go against Sylvanas (*cough* Garrosh 2.0 *cough*) and most likely to set up the next expansion where we go after her.

As for the motives, we have two choices; we believe Saurfang, who has spoke of nothing but honor, and accept that he was the one following the assassins while also looking for an ally or we believe he lied, and that the assassins were either hired by him to kill Thrall or that they followed him and are attacking only after Thrall decided to side with Saurfang.

It's pretty obvious which one is the realistic version of that story; Sylvanas wanted Thrall dead because she knows he will side with honor and the Orcs, and the Horde for that matter, would follow Thrall, even if he didn't want the mantle of warchief again.

[Aucald]

It really is completely inconsistent and difficult to assay - how Forsaken and True Death is treated is probably one of WoW's weakest narrative branches. My personal theory is that Forsaken "die" when they basically give up on unlife, when either the pain of what they're undergoing (be it emotional or physical) becomes so great that the soul finally finishes detaching from the body and floats off into the Shadowlands. I think these two assassins were newer Forsaken, perhaps created solely for this; and as a result they may not have had the endurance that an older Forsaken who had time to adapt to undeath would've had.

That's just speculation on my part, though.

[Syegfryed]

It's magic. It doesn't have to make sense! Maybe hitting the neck in that region disrupted the flow of magic

this actually could be for sure a reasonable explanation, if the magic make then alive, hitting too hard would stop anything and no magic could endure.

[Sangris]

I've given up on trying to find even an ounce of consistency in Blizzard's writing. I have had a lot less headaches since then.

[Jastall]

Forsaken durability is too inconsistent to determine. Some media have them be far more resilient than the living (Garrosh claims that this makes them great cannon fodder), while some have them be no tougher than any living being, such as Zelling dying to a single arrow or the girls in the cinematic dying to a neck snap/totem strike. Sylvanas herself said she was capable of surviving a fall from Icecrown Citadel which looks to be a mile high, but she also said Baine could break her like a twig with his bare hands, and she died to a single bullet.

Even the guys who survived having their legs separated from their bodies say it only works sometimes. So basically, don't try to find any consistency, and IMO assume that Forsaken aren't significantly more durable unless the plot calls for it. The very mechanics of undeath in Warcraft have always been very vague at the best of times anyway.

[Fetus Rex]

They are basically the clergy of orcish society, no need for them to become a leader as they still have a massive influence.



Doesn't matter what i am, it matters what a Shaman is.
Because i'm going to beat the same drum i did when i had this totally amazing discussion with another person:

source for your claims.



Thrall is a young Shaman, he didn't become a leader because he wanted, but because others made him a Leader.
Orgrim named him Warchief, Drek'thar handed the leadership over after he confirmed that he's the son of Durotan and only after he's proven that he's worthy of it.

But Thrall didn't seek those position.

And as said, even Drek'thar scolded him when he asked why he just doesn't use the elements for anything, because that's not what being a Shaman is about.

Orcs don't challenge their leaders because it suits them, take Kilroggs dad for example, that guy, going by the Lords of War episode, wasn't exactly fit anymore, yet no one questioned his rule.



And Orcs generally do not fuck around with their spiritual guide, because elemental worship is part of their culture.
Telling a Shaman to fuck off is like telling a Bishop / Pope to fuck off in medival europe, prickly matter even for rulers.



Doesn't change the fact that he was rejected by the elements due to his ambitions, after all, majority of orcs do not become a Shaman.
Guess there's a reason why a lot of Shaman appear way more passive than regular Orc warriors, because they are different.

A Shamans source of power requires them to be humble.



Gul'dan fooled them, told them it's basically a higher power without any backdraw, KJ himself manipulated popular Shaman like Ner'zhul, dissidents were killed off.
It's not like Gul'dan showed up and asks them: Want some? It was a big political scheme.

Fuck, you are a talker.

But they can and where is is possibility there is will.

Thrall is a cuck so there's that. Yeah yeah in idealistic ritual of bonds and love.

Drek'thar, another frostcuck.

They do it when they want to do it, there are many reasons for it. Yeah, shitty writing, old Kilrogg would die long time ago in a more realistic setting.

So? It doesn't make them more important than a Chieftain.

No, he was rejected for his crazy drive, not ambitions. He lacked few good patches in his brain. I have read about many shamans, they weren't much different.

Humble? MU Gul'dan was humble? Ner'zhul was humble? Magatha is humble? Fucking Zuluhed?

And they have accepted it because they wanted moreeee poweeeer, to realize their thirst.

[enigma77]

Decapitation or even dismemberment is not enough to kill a Forsaken, and many times enemies have to burn the remains of a destroyed Forsaken body. Otherwise, it can reattach its limbs and joints by temporarily melting their skin, knitting muscle and clicking bones back together.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Forsaken#Biology


Just lol @ Blizzard's writers. Is there any doubt that these people are paid amateurs?

[Zandalariprelate]

That's why I feel like it needs a strong, respected leader who can rein even the naughtiest in. Being a Warchief should be the most difficult job on Azeroth, like it was described in ToD. Let the Alliance be coalition based on sharing mutual values, religion and all that jam, while the Horde is kept together through strength and respect. It's essence is supposed to be warrior culture after all.

Nah both values are just relatives crap that anyone can stomp at any time. Sylvanas is theory is a good warchief but her militar might and tactics are leaving too much to desire, the alliance nations shares a lot of values with Anduin(at least the leaders and probably half of their population) and yet they are running out of common folk and at some point they will be near of extinction. Let both factions have golden rules that can't be broken even with dire circumstance and act according to their perception and culture with an common thing for every member(the horde is united by their common ideology of unity makes them stronger but if you want a fight with the bull, then you will get hurt by his horns and the alliance is defeating and assimilating the defeated culture like the marleys from SnK does, that is more grounded and less relative than a warrior culture(blood elves and taurens PUFFF) or the American wayambiguous values of MLP of the alliance

[Kralljin]

Humble? MU Gul'dan was humble?

MU Gul'dan never was a Shaman.
That's been retconned, MU Gul'dans backstory is now the same as AU Gul'dan, only that in MU, he became Ner'zhuls apprentice in order to fool other orcs, but he was a Warlock at this point already.

Ner'zhul was humble?

Later on, no, but he also then stopped being a Shaman, as he also embraced the Warlocks path, despite realizing that Gul'dan and KJ fooled him (which he regretted).

Magatha is humble?

I doubt that Magatha or any of the Grimtotem tribe practice the regular Shamanism, most likely a lot closer to Dark Shamanism.

Fucking Zuluhed?

See above.

The rest of your post is nothing i find worth addressing, you're mostly just insulting characters, consider this the last reply from me on this topic.

[mostvp71]

Thrall looks like a green Mel Gibson for some reason.

Probably the most decent Thrall lore of the last decade, he declined to lead the horde but he'll fight for it and maybe he'll die for it and redeem himself. Hopefully it gets a strong leader.

Saurfang will die, Thrall will feel obligated to lead the horde. It's pretty obvious at this point.

[Super Dickmann]

Honor is only a meme if you choose it to be. Personally, I hold little truck with memes - finding them to be on a rung slightly below puns. Funny, sure, but not a part of proper discourse. I also disagree with you as concerns the Horde's state between WC3 and WoW - nothing really changed betwixt the two except for the narrative moving forward as is understandable.

It's a meme in the sense that it has no meaning on its own. To not retread this for the millionth time, but Nazgrim, Garrosh, Thrall and Saurfang all claimed their actions were honorable when pursuing entirely separate goals, and that's just within one race. What's honorable to a Zandalari isn't to an orc. In turn, the civilized established races like Nightborne and Blood Elves have different values and the goblin and Forsaken ones are pretty esoteric. There's no united ethos like there was in WC3, which is why a trait that only encompasses a fraction of the Horde can't be its binding trait, especially when all others in WC3 - the tribal nature, shamanism and close bonds, aren't there. WoW did change this, just by adding the Forsaken, blood elves and goblins, but also by changing up the Kalimdor races' dynamic in Wrath and especially Cata/Mists.

I think the key here is that the door is open to play a character however you want to - from a well-meaning person afflicted with a tragic condition to an evil sadist who sees Sylvanas as the highest good. The door is open for all forms of portrayal.

You can also envision your character to not have raided Garrosh or Sylvanas, not helped Illidan or in a DK's case, not attacked the paladins. But the canon assumes you did the War of Thorns, that the Deathlord, so the DK PC did all the quests and so on. Likewise, the Forsaken quests are written from the standpoint that your character would align with the actions being taken, which exemplify the values you're given in the intro. You can of course roleplay whatever separately, but that's not the standard experience.

My point when referring to the DK and the Forsaken is that this sort of experience was always represented, offered and catered to within the game, which the present narrative fails to take into account or seems to actively despise given the steps it's taken to wholly change the Forsaken. At the same time, if we go by the newly released dev interview on the people's views of Sylvanas, they are writing the Horde as a whole as possessing beliefs that i doubt many people here would have thought they held.

Being evil isn't a character trait? Since when? When did moral alignment stop informing characterization? As for motivation or purpose - it was meant to stop Thrall from being a rallying figure Saurfang could use to put together a coalition to oppose her, in full knowledge that Thrall has both remaining charisma and a long and storied past with the Horde that could make many of her loyalists question their allegiance (e.g. if Thrall opposes her, then what am I doing?) Sylvanas didn't change much at all in BfA if you ask me - she's continued to pursue the same agenda as she's done since her experiences back in Cata, the goal of securing herself against True Death by seeking ways to increase and enhance the Forsaken as her bulwark against eternity. Only her means have changed as a result of her rising star.

Being evil informs actions and motivation, but it was never before Sylvanas' driving force. She didn't gas people because it lowered her score on the karma meter, but to achieve set aims. Similarly, the knots one would have to tie themselves in to assume that a character who didn't want to be Warchief at all and would prefer to just step out is willing to order some dude who was uninvolved and who's state she surely would have no known prior killed in such an incompetent and hamhanded way doesn't hold together. Ditto, she has not expanded the Forsaken numerically in this war and the fact she was willing to give up her main area where she's making them and actually initiate a war where she's set to kick the bucket, in complete contravention to her previous refusal to go to war to not bring this exact result about in Tides of War doesn't hold together either. BFA Sylvanas does evil things for the sake of their evil, ditto that whole retardation concerning Derek and whatever the hell is going on with Baine that you need a Ph.D to comprehend.

Re; the rogues. They do go invisible and were invisible prior. Rogues in Elegy/A Good War also went invisible using shadow magic. It's a canonical skill some rogues have and one we see with our own eyes in the cinematic. And this doesn't cover them not needing sleep whereas Saurfang does.

[Syegfryed]

Saurfang will die, Thrall will feel obligated to lead the horde. It's pretty obvious at this point.

or the other way around, to more chock value

[mostvp71]

or the other way around, to more chock value

Nah, Saurfang is too old to lead the Horde trust me, Thrall will be warchief.

Sylvanas will kill Saurfang, Thrall will tend to him like Grom in WC3 then Saurfang will say "Thrall, this is the death I asked for as a warrior. You need to protect the horde's legacy and traditions. You need to be warchief."

Metzen also seems to want to play warchief again so ya there's that too.

[Fetus Rex]

MU Gul'dan never was a Shaman.
That's been retconned, MU Gul'dans backstory is now the same as AU Gul'dan, only that in MU, he became Ner'zhuls apprentice in order to fool other orcs, but he was a Warlock at this point already.



Later on, no, but he also then stopped being a Shaman, as he also embraced the Warlocks path, despite realizing that Gul'dan and KJ fooled him (which he regretted).



I doubt that Magatha or any of the Grimtotem tribe practice the regular Shamanism, most likely a lot closer to Dark Shamanism.



See above.

The rest of your post is nothing i find worth addressing, you're mostly just insulting characters, consider this the last reply from me on this topic.

Even before embracing fel he too was not the most of humblest sort, humble guys don't buy into green radiating juice.

But why? It is not as if elements and furies are all benevolnt as proved often by the more raging elementals and throngs of Firelord himself.

Well, they are cucks, whole of wintercuck clan. The absolute imbeciles. Ok, except for Geyarah, that one is honorable. Probably Garrosh fucked Draka in her cocoa orcish ass-cunt.

[Dagoth Ur]

Let both factions have golden rules that can't be broken even with dire circumstance and act according to their perception and culture with an common thing for every member(the horde is united by their common ideology of unity makes them stronger but if you want a fight with the bull, then you will get hurt by his horns

I think with Horde, it's pointless to look for common points in something like culture or religion or common things in general, it's members are just too different. Races that are more compatible together, like Orcs, Trolls and Tauren, work fine, but you gotta fit in the elves and Forsaken too somehow. That's why I'd make it like I said so in my previous post. If you've agreed to be part of the Horde, than you've agreed to play by its hypothetically, more broadly, not-only-blood-oath, previously established rules/code, whatever. In return, Warchief has to be a strong, respected figure who'll enforce those rules and look after so all race's cultures are being respected. If you're messing with that, he'll freaking rein you in. If you're still messing with that, you're out. When I say warrior culture, I mostly mean that. Individual races could still run their internal business however they want, it's just that they'll have to answer to warchief now too.

Like I said, it'd be based on strength, respect and, if absolutely necessary, fear too.

and the alliance is defeating and assimilating the defeated culture like the marleys from SnK does, that is more grounded and less relative than a warrior culture(blood elves and taurens PUFFF) or the American wayambiguous values of MLP of the alliance

As far as I'm concerned, I'd even let them keep the whole good guy act. It'd just throw in a couple of wildcards here and there so it doesn't get completely boring, like it's now. Just let it have its naughty phases too so it doesn't get completely stale.

[Mehrunes]

I don't agree with that. The Forsaken are generally dark-aligned and often evil, but they've always had exceptions to this rule. Kegan Darkmar, Leonid Bartholomew, Alchemist Finklestein, Captain Rupert, Barnabas Grell, and several others are shown that the Forsaken don't follow in lock-step with Sylvanas. The Warcraft universe has been at pains to embrace all kinds of alignments in both the Horde and the Alliance.

So five people (and it's not like Finklestein was exactly some paragon of justice, he was just working with the Crusade) verus what, hundreds of other named Forsaken at this point?

Or, alternatively, Sylvanas has been a villain since her conversion into an undead Banshee and we're only now seeing the extent of that as she's stepped out of the proverbial shadows. Sylvanas has never exactly been presented in a positive light, after all, and she's always been willing to pursue questionable strategies for the purposes of her own agendas all the way back to her first introduction in WC3. Sylvanas hasn't changed much at the end of the day, only the scope of what she's capable of has been greatly enhanced as a result of her ascension to prominence.

Her always being a villain doesn't salvage her doing things solely for the evulz. Because villain doesn't exactly equal braindead moron that kicks puppies because of some inane compulsion to commit evil acts.

[Aucald]

So five people (and it's not like Finklestein was exactly some paragon of justice, he was just working with the Crusade) verus what, hundreds of other named Forsaken at this point?

I don't think the Forsaken have hundreds of prominent NPC's, really. I've already acknowledged the ratio is lopsided, but it's far from zero and those were just a few NPC's I could immediately think of.

Her always being a villain doesn't salvage her doing things solely for the evulz. Because villain doesn't exactly equal braindead moron that kicks puppies because of some inane compulsion to commit evil acts.

She doesn't do things "for the evulz," she does them for the furthering of her own power and to prevent herself from returning to "hell." She has no higher calling and no greater loyalty than that, and if killing every living individual in the Horde could secure that outcome for her she would likely pursue that goal.