Arcane torrent needed nerf but shadowmeld is fine??

[Imurbandaid]

Well, that's how things are. There will always be a "best" racial. So when they nerf shadow meld next mdi all are going for tauren stomp or lightforged laser.
Personally I think for competitions like the MDI racials should not be available by default, just like profession tools are not.

I think that would be completely reasonable. It is a grey area where it is simply too powerful in MDI and hurts the health of it as an Esport. It just is so boring to watch groups run from boss to boss skipping all the hard trash that could be a challenge and possibly kill a few players or cause a wipe. I don't think it is fair to tax the normal players over MDI, but at the same time it really needs to be addressed. Other racials don't have a huge impact like this, so removing racial abilities from MDI would be nice I think.

[melzas]

"Shadowmeld sucks because I'm a Rogue and any time I would ever use it I can just use Vanish instead."

See how silly you're being?

Not at all, because your example is horrible. Vanish is a long and important cd. Having an extra semi-vanish is powerful.

Travel form and cat form dont have any cd. If you run tiger dash, cd on that is super low, if you run charge you have another movement speed cd. If you ever played worgen druid you would understand how niche darkflight is for them.

Comparing usefulness of darklight on druid to shadowmeld on rogue is hilariously bad.

[Mardux]

Yes, everybody and their grandmother was and still IS maining Belf on Horde. Are you intentionally trying to seem ignorant? This game currently is ~80% Horde in ACTIVE players. Of those 80% the biggest portion plays Belf. All of those players who go Nelf for MDI would not touch Nelf outside of the MDI, because they don't give a fuck about the racial at all. The racial is COMPLETLY IRRELEVANT outside the MDI.

The Nelf racial gives you and edge in a timing competition against equally skilled players. Which is NOT what M+ is usually about. Usually it is about clearing the highest keys possible or clearing low keys as fast as possible. And for neither the Nelf racial is anywhere near the best racials in the game. Arcane torrent on the other hand WAS clearly the best racial for all of these cases.

Now i'm sure YOU care a lot about the MDI. But for the game it is more important to make more players roll anything but Belf on the servers the game is actually played on.

You ask about someone being intentionally ignorant, yet claim everybody is still maining a blood elf on horde (they aren't btw, only about 1/3 are belves) while implying it's because of the racial. Can you not understand that they could be belves because it's the only option for dh and was one of *2* options horde were allowed for paladin until less than a year ago (something that despite it's lore backing, alliance players still cried about), 2 classes that make up nearly half of the belf population?

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Bingo, you can even move around with them.

But nope, probably just some Belf players that are jealous that another Elf besides Belves actually get some use.

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Don't even fucking try and pretend it's nearly the same thing. A ability that could make a HUGE difference in PvE and PvP vs a ability that helps you save a little time.

Which potion let's you pull mobs for 20-30 seconds, get to a safe spot, then drop combat? I need to get some of those for when meld is on CD.

[Mixxy]

Not at all, because your example is horrible. Vanish is a long and important cd. Having an extra semi-vanish is powerful.

Travel form and cat form dont have any cd. If you run tiger dash, cd on that is super low, if you run charge you have another movement speed cd. If you ever played worgen druid you would understand how niche darkflight is for them.

Comparing usefulness of darklight on druid to shadowmeld on rogue is hilariously bad.

No one made you pick Worgen/Druid. You could've been any other race-class combination.

But yeah, Darkflight is pretty... meh. It's pretty useful on low-mobility classes but probably not even on the other classes' bars at all. I'm personally hoping the Worgen's upcoming update involve some improvements to their Racial kit.

[Super Kami Dende]

Would rather it not get nerfed because of 1 extremely niche thing like M+ E-sports.

Nerfing fun shit because of something 0.00001% of the playerbase is just fucking stupid.

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Yes, everybody and their grandmother was and still IS maining Belf on Horde. Are you intentionally trying to seem ignorant? This game currently is ~80% Horde in ACTIVE players.

Incorrect. Of all players at 120 the ratio is 53.5:46.5 Horde:Alli. Of those Horde, 36.5% are Blood Elf.

[Mixxy]

Would rather it not get nerfed because of 1 extremely niche thing like M+ E-sports.

Nerfing fun shit because of something 0.00001% of the playerbase is just fucking stupid.

I agree. Especially when the obvious solution to it (and several other issues) is just disabling Racials in the MDI.

[melzas]

No one made you pick Worgen/Druid. You could've been any other race-class combination.

But yeah, Darkflight is pretty... meh. It's pretty useful on low-mobility classes but probably not even on the other classes' bars at all. I'm personally hoping the Worgen's upcoming update involve some improvements to their Racial kit.

If you read the first of my posts I qouted, it was in response to someone claiming that having different power levels of racials is fun and that it's one of perks of WoW being a mmorpg.

I used the example of darkflight vs shadowmeld on druid characters, because it's an outlier of how racials that are supposed to add flavour create a situation in which you feel gimped for picking a worse race.

You coming up with a response of "no one forced you to roll worgen" is exactly what I'm talking about. It's a mmorpg game, in which I should be able to play whatever race I want without feeling gimped. This is my understanding of fun. When I have to choose nelf for my druid or otherwise listen to smart asses coming at me with their childish "nO oNE foRcEd yOu tO RoLl woRGen" because I literally gimp myself, then it's a game design I dislike, and as such I support the OP in raising the subject of shadowmeld being too strong for a racial.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Nerfing something because of a very specific thing that happened in a tournament? Hmmmm

[Valysar]

Nerfing something because of a very specific thing that happened in a tournament? Hmmmm

They nerfed Tol Dagor's canons because of the MDI you know.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

They nerfed Tol Dagor's canons because of the MDI you know.

That isn't a racial ...

[Imurbandaid]

Nerfing something because of a very specific thing that happened in a tournament? Hmmmm

No, nerfing something because it is gamebreaking to m+ whether the average player chooses to use it or not. It'd be a good start to have racials removed from MDI, but that doesn't change the fact that its too OP for a racial ability in m+.

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That isn't a racial ...

To be fair, you said "nerfing something for MDI" he presented you an example of them nerfing something for MDI. If it needs nerfed it needs nerfed, whether its for M+, pvp, raids, and whether its a trinket, racial, class ability, etc.

[Renixis]

Whether you think shadowmeld should be changed or not, the problem with comparing it to arcane torrent is that there are several big differences between the two.

Arcane torrent was very strong in pretty much all content, shadowmeld is far more niche and is almost useless in places like raids. Shadowmeld only really shines in one specific place, high end mythic+ with a very organised and practiced team who need access to the ability or something similar. Unlike arcane torrent, where even 1-2 people in a group having it was fantastic.

Only belf have access to arcane torrent, only nelf have access to shadowmeld. Anyone who has followed high end pve knows that horde have dominated it for years with the problem only getting worse as time goes on. A lot of even mid level mythic teams went horde during Legion because they knew they would have an easier time on team red. Even if racials were removed entirely, you would still have far more people interested in that content be horde because the player pool there is far larger. When the faction that is doing far better has unique access to something OP then it is more likely to be changed than if the underdog does. There is a reason that when all these MDI players log back onto live after a cup, they play horde.

[Tomana]

Arcane torrent got gutted because it was "too op for dungeons and m+" but I just watched a team of 5 nelf skip all the trash between boss 2-3 and 3-4 in motherlode during the mdi and crush the time of a +18.

Easy. Arcane Torrent is Horde, so it must be nerfed to the ground. Shadowmeld is Alliance so it's fine.
Biased designers are biased.

[Imurbandaid]

Whether you think shadowmeld should be changed or not, the problem with comparing it to arcane torrent is that there are several big differences between the two.

Arcane torrent was very strong in pretty much all content, shadowmeld is far more niche and is almost useless in places like raids. Shadowmeld only really shines in one specific place, high end mythic+ with a very organised and practiced team who need access to the ability or something similar. Unlike arcane torrent, where even 1-2 people in a group having it was fantastic.

Only belf have access to arcane torrent, only nelf have access to shadowmeld. Anyone who has followed high end pve knows that horde have dominated it for years with the problem only getting worse as time goes on. A lot of even mid level mythic teams went horde during Legion because they knew they would have an easier time on team red. Even if racials were removed entirely, you would still have far more people interested in that content be horde because the player pool there is far larger. When the faction that is doing far better has unique access to something OP then it is more likely to be changed than if the underdog does. There is a reason that when all these MDI players log back onto live after a cup, they play horde.

The fact that far less players in the game play alliance isn't a valid reason to let a racial ability that is clearly OP in m+ and MDI stay OP. My original complaint was for MDI because thats where it has effected me as a viewer of something Blizzard wants to push as an Esport. Other people in this forum have brought up many other circumstances that make it OP in m+ in regular gameplay, if watching MDI isn't your cup of tea. It is due for a change, maybe arcane torrent wasn't THEE BEST example, but it was an example of a racial being OP for m+ and dungeon design that was nerfed. I could have simply put "shadowmeld could use a nerf" as title, which I guess I should have cause everyone likes to bring up the fact that more people play BE than NE as if thats a reason for an OP ability not receiving a nerf.

[ThiagoTorres]

If you read the first of my posts I qouted, it was in response to someone claiming that having different power levels of racials is fun and that it's one of perks of WoW being a mmorpg.

I used the example of darkflight vs shadowmeld on druid characters, because it's an outlier of how racials that are supposed to add flavour create a situation in which you feel gimped for picking a worse race.

You coming up with a response of "no one forced you to roll worgen" is exactly what I'm talking about. It's a mmorpg game, in which I should be able to play whatever race I want without feeling gimped. This is my understanding of fun. When I have to choose nelf for my druid or otherwise listen to smart asses coming at me with their childish "nO oNE foRcEd yOu tO RoLl woRGen" because I literally gimp myself, then it's a game design I dislike, and as such I support the OP in raising the subject of shadowmeld being too strong for a racial.

Agree, the problem is when a faction have op racials and the others dont, thats why ally is a dead faction in bfa

[Renixis]

Easy. Arcane Torrent is Horde, so it must be nerfed to the ground. Shadowmeld is Alliance so it's fine.
Biased designers are biased.

Horde racials were left much stronger for so long that we saw a giant shift in the faction balance of the playerbase for end game content that is now nearly impossible to fix. I'm sure someone with the signature "BE forever" wouldn't be biased themselves though.

[Garymorilix]

Answer to NadyBro

I do think that's a problem, and yes, it is the very highest, ALTERNATIVE form of some content, which mostly mimics the actuality of it, bear in mind, this is not Mythic+ as is in retail, completely different settings.
How is it different? Well, everyone can play whatever, choosing from all the gear in the game and have it ilvl 445, picking whichever desired comb, race or class they may have, and it's not about, what team can push the highest m+ key within time limit! No, it's who can beat the 18+ key the fastest under the same regulations. So it's not Mythic+ as you know it, it's a limitless version of Mythic+ that offers entertainment value. If there's a problem in MDI, the problem is ONLY in MDI, it does not translate to retail wow, the only problem might be how many people wanna watch it.

Also, let's once more mention Arcane Torrent(Belfs) for Garrosh in SoO, and while we're at it, the fact that everyone for Jaina Mythic progress swapped to trolls cause well, trolls have 20% movement speed slow reduction, making the fight a lot easier, the only ones that didn't was a belf Paladin and belf DH, cause well, they can't be trolls with those classes.

It does, yes, because if an ability native to a race, specc or faction, that faction will have an advantage, there's a reason horde became more populated with the arrival of TBC. It's a very real argument you're neglecting.
This is so far off and completely unrelated to anything that adressing it almost feels ridiculous - the obvious answer is no. And it's got nothing, whatsoever, at all, to do with this discussion.
Once again, when BoD hit the first week, Limits raider all went to alliance to grab that guaranteed 400ilvl piece of gear, now the question is, why didn't they stay alliance, they already paid! The answer - horde is stronger and has better things overall for competetive play, like it or not, that's also why Method back in the day went horde, like so many others.

And the fact alliance isn't dominating the leaderboards for mythic+ tells us a few different things which I will return to after adressing the rest of your message.

Yes, they "nerfed"(not deleted) the subtlety rogue specc, and it was a warranted nerf that came too late in my opinion, why was it warranted? Well, when a class/specc can outperform everyone becayse they have an ability or two, they're OP, way too OP, another problem was that, the damage was only partly based on gear, meaning that even in arena, rogues with 30-50ilvls lower, still had an advantage due to their unreasonable kit - it had to be nerfed, Zul was simply the last drop.
Why was Zul the last drop? Well! I will tell you, because, the top guilds literally class stacked rogues, some having 5-6 rogues in, and those rogues didn't even have to be as geared as the other people in the raid, they could easily be double-digits lower ilvl and outperform due to their kit, which was unreasonable.
And uh, raiding isn't niche content, nor is pvp - both of these represent the by far majority of game-play in WoW. And you say very good players, but as I mentioned already, it didn't take good players, it just took a rogue and knowing the rotation, and you'd outperfom geared people that mechanically outperformed you - that's bad for the game!

Then how to adress it? Also, I am not biased, I prefer horde, but I love how Shadowmeld is FINALLY something usefull!

And please, tell me where else Shadowmeld is really good, in the game? I really wanna hear your thoughts, and let's stay on the topic of Shadowmeld!

First off, let me get this one straight: I don't care whether alliance or horde racials are Op, if they are OP i have a problem with it.

You are clearly biased towards alliance side.

Horde racials being stronger for PvE is not a thing for many years now. This argument holds zero relevance toward this topic at all.
Arcane Torrent was OP for a very long time, and I was one of the people saying it should be nerfed. It was.

There is a huge problem with Shadowmelf in MDI because MDI (as you said so) is there to entertain. Shadowmeld cheeses a fundamental part of an M+ run, and if that's the go-to strategy every single time then the show loses entertainment value.
Look at cheese tactics in MOBA games and how fast they are fixed once they start ruining the entertainment on a championship level. Exact same situation.
Problem is, M+ in its current form is here to stay. So Blizz can't just adapt the whole M+ system to one racial, guess what needs to be addressed then.

Raiding has little to no relevance to this topic, but let's see: The big guilds operate at least 4-5 characters per person. That's why Limit went back to horde, they didn't transfer every single one of their characters, just the main ones at that time.
Racial difference in power in current wow is non-existent. The reason why Limit and Method and other big guild are Horde is because: They like that more, and it gives them better recruitment scene. NOT because alliance racials are so garbage that they wouldn't be able to raid. Don't mistake the lack of big Alliance pve guilds to alliance being objectively worse. No correlation there.

You also have to handle last bosses of a raid and M+ differently. Yes, the troll passive was good for Jaina but that's one encounter in one tier and it's a minor passive.
If a boss had a massive raidwide stun on a frequent basis everyone would be orc.
If a boss had a massive raidwide bleed everyone would be Dark iron.
If a boss required constant underwater movement (with no buff like in EP) everyone would be Kul Tiran.
Etc etc etc
These only matter ofc if said bosses are the last bosses in a raid (nobody would care to race change to the first bosses of any raid).
And even then, Trolls didn't trivilize the Jaina encounter. They didn't teleport to the ice arena or anything. It was just very slighty better.
This type of advantage is on the encounter designers, not the class/race balance team.

The problem with Shadowmeld is that the M+ scene won't change. Jaina is a last tier boss now, no-one cares about that. Hell, no-one cared about it after the world first either. Shadowmeld's power will stay because no matter what affix blizz comes up with in 8.3, it won't affect Shadowmeld's ability to trivialize trash packs.

Saying that there is invis potions or shroud or whatever doesn't address the problem either. They are there, and then there is Shadowmeld ON TOP of them. They are not mutually exclusive. If they were (like Shadowmeld shared a cooldown with shroud and invis potions) that would actually solve the problem pretty good imo.
I'd suggest that as a solution, now that I think about it. It's already the case with undead/human racials.

And yes, subtlety rogues WERE deleted (in PvE at least). Tell me when was the last time you saw a sub rogue in any PvE content that required actual group effort.
I can tell you when I did, it was 2018 November. I haven't seen a single sub rogue since then, and I play 3 characters actievely, doing +10 and higher keys and heroic raids every single week.

Shadowmeld doesn't have to be 'really good' anywhere. Like any other racial. Or tell me where Cannibalize, Haymaker, Rocket Jump, Blood Fury, War Stomp, Escape Artist or literally any other active racial is 'really good' to the point that they single handedly cheese end-game content.

[Mixxy]

You coming up with a response of "no one forced you to roll worgen" is exactly what I'm talking about. It's a mmorpg game, in which I should be able to play whatever race I want without feeling gimped. This is my understanding of fun. When I have to choose nelf for my druid or otherwise listen to smart asses coming at me with their childish "nO oNE foRcEd yOu tO RoLl woRGen" because I literally gimp myself, then it's a game design I dislike, and as such I support the OP in raising the subject of shadowmeld being too strong for a racial.

"I'm not having fun, so I don't want anyone else to have fun."

How about, instead of nerfing Shadowmeld (which is already limited to only being useful in exactly one circumstance), we buff the bad racials so that they aren't bad anymore?

[Imurbandaid]

"I'm not having fun, so I don't want anyone else to have fun."

How about, instead of nerfing Shadowmeld (which is already limited to only being useful in exactly one circumstance), we buff the bad racials so that they aren't bad anymore?

Buffing dozens of racials doesn't change the fact that shadowmeld single handedly cheeses end-game content. On top of that, buffing that many racials could cause more balance issues while...again it doesn't solve the fact that shadowmeld hardcore cheeses end-game content.

[Mixxy]

Shadowmeld doesn't have to be 'really good' anywhere. Like any other racial. Or tell me where Cannibalize, Haymaker, Rocket Jump, Blood Fury, War Stomp, Escape Artist or literally any other active racial is 'really good' to the point that they single handedly cheese end-game content.

Interesting example, considering that Racial was the only way to kill M Kil'Jaeden for a while.

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Buffing dozens of racials doesn't change the fact that shadowmeld single handedly cheeses end-game content. On top of that, buffing that many racials could cause more balance issues while...again it doesn't solve the fact that shadowmeld hardcore cheeses end-game content.

Skipping a pack or two in M+ isn't "single-handedly cheesing end-game content".