Contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids

[Kaver]

Explain how Warriors aren't hybrid? They were the best tank and possibly the best DPS too, what's not hybrid about this?

Please understand that I’m not arguing that Warriors aren’t hybrid. This is not about what I think or my opinion.

It’s about Blizzard’s definition of hybrids and the hybrid tax in vanilla. Blizzard definition has nothing to do with what I think. I’m completely neutral in this topic.

All I’m saying is that Warriors weren’t a hybrid by Blizzard’s definition because they didn’t define hybrids based on roles back in 2004. They defined hybrids based on classes ability to dps and heal at the same time. This is not MY definition and I’m not saying that definition is correct, I’m just stating the fact that it WAS how Blizzard defined hybrids back then. It has nothing to do with me. I’m only the messenger.

[Segus1992]

If Classic raiding is so easy then why not allow any or more Ret Paladins, Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans?

Feral Druids are fine DPS, and they have unique utility with 3% physical crit chance for the group.

Enhancement COULD get spots because of Improved Weapon Totems, but are weak DPS otherwise.
Retribution Paladins give nothing at all.

The REAL reason why you can't raid as these specs is that while you don't NEED to maximize, what you'll do instead is to just have every Druid/Shaman/Paladin heal, even if they're DPS specced, because even fully DPS specced they'll be a better addition to a team by healing than by DPSing (in raids).

[Diatribe]

With how we know things now and whatnot, once a guild gets back into the groove of things in MC and BWL, then there will be loosening of who comes in at what spec. The proble is that gearing up will sti go priority to main spec vs off spec as set bonus are specced to vanilla ways, not your way. I know as a Shaman, that my T1-T3 set bonus only reward me for healing and not really anything else, but can (in theory) be used as Elemental, but since he's Resto, then I'm gtg. Anyways, Ferals and Rets will still find themselves having to compete against anyone else who can wear those upgrades and those they were a better usage of (i.e. Rogues get priority over Feral because they'll have more of an impact than Feral dps compared to Rogue dps). No, there won't be a huge amount of hybrids running instances because you will have to have tanks and you will have to have healers. No matter how hard they try, the best feral will never out dps a rogue. The best Ret will never out dps a Warrior.

[Geo9999]

Don't go into Classic with out friends to carry you if you plan to play a DPS hybrid.

I played ret in vanilla before anyone really knew better or cared. The mentality is MUCH different today. I still play a paladin in classic, but I do so with the intent of going holy at 60 knowing my class is garbage at everything else and undesirable.

Many pug dungeon groups/raids will avoid inviting hybrid dps like I avoid inviting hunters (for a diff reason). Even if you CAN do the dungeon/raid comfortably with hybrid dps, no one is going to *want* to if you're a pug slowing their clear down because of a sub optimal spec.

Why do you avoid hunters? I play a Hunter and I can pull my weight numerically, and have saved the ass of my group a few times by Distracting Shot a couple mobs off the tank when healer struggled and kiting them. Or putting my pet on a mob or two to help with tank healing.

[Mashanerz]

If Classic raiding is so easy then why not allow any or more Ret Paladins, Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans?

Someone told people that they're not as good and folks with minimal raiding experience in classic are going to parrot what they've been told without question.

In vanilla I used to raid with a ret paladin OT, a prot paladin, a feral druid (2 of them), a shadow priest and a boomkin...

But I also ran with DPS rogues/warriors/mages/locks/hunters that weren't the optimal DPS spec's either. When you run with a mage that is spec'd for PoM/Pyro, a rogue that has 110 energy, or a warrior with mortal strike, then you're not in a position to make arguments against the other classes. Vanilla has fairly low DPS thresholds so all these things are viable and you can look to min/max if you're not meeting those thresholds, but there is no chance in hell your raid is failing a DPS check because you have a ret paladin.

[Nobleshield]

The toxic min/max mindset combined with parroting private server theory crafting "meta". There's zero reason other than being a tryhard to not let people ah what they want, since nothing is tuned for everyone playing optimally.

I would suspect that the majority of guilds will not be able to be as selective or picky as they may think when it comes to deciding who to pick to fill a 40 Man raid

[Pozz]

Even back in Vanilla we used all kinds of classes. Rather have a good player on the 'wrong' class/spec than an average player playing the right one

[DJ117]

The toxic min/max mindset combined with parroting private server theory crafting "meta". There's zero reason other than being a tryhard to not let people ah what they want, since nothing is tuned for everyone playing optimally.

Don’t play if you don’t like it. It’s as simple as that.

[Nobleshield]

Don’t play if you don’t like it. It’s as simple as that.

Or don't try to min-max everything and think it gives you the right to tell somebody else how they should play a game especially when it's been proven that it doesn't matter.

[ghotihook]

The toxic min/max mindset combined with parroting private server theory crafting "meta". There's zero reason other than being a tryhard to not let people ah what they want, since nothing is tuned for everyone playing optimally.

I would suspect that the majority of guilds will not be able to be as selective or picky as they may think when it comes to deciding who to pick to fill a 40 Man raid

This is exactly what I am hoping for. I played an Spriest in Vanilla and I would like to relive it.. Obviously any of the higher end guilds will not allow hybrids, but I am hoping casual 1-2 nights a week guilds won't care.

[FlubberPuddy]

This is exactly what I am hoping for. I played an Spriest in Vanilla and I would like to relive it.. Obviously any of the higher end guilds will not allow hybrids, but I am hoping casual 1-2 nights a week guilds won't care.

Majority of guilds will not be "tryhard min/max" so you won't have trouble finding groups. Another thing I see happening in Classic that probably wasn't happening in Vanilla is a larger amount of PUGs once the server gets most of its population to lv 60.

The Classic servers are here to stay, there's not some 2 year time limit to finish any of the content before TBC comes to re-write over it or the process of getting the server shut down. All players will get geared up to handle all the raids piss-easy, some will just take longer to get there than others and that's expected and normal.

[Malikath]

Explain how Warriors aren't hybrid? They were the best tank and possibly the best DPS too, what's not hybrid about this?

because blizzard's development has always been biased toward the classes that the developers play, in this case warrior gets exempt from the "hybrid-tax"(a flimsy explanation for them being lazy useless shits as proven by their performance over the years) because it's the class afrasiabi is famous for getting hired over.
same goes with mages(specifically frost) and kaplan(mei in OW is the same chill/kill design).

there's about two times this wasn't the case in WoW, wrath when ghostcrawler pushed to change the paradigm to "bring the player not the class", and MoP when the game was it's most developed and balanced prior to WoD fucking everything up and post cata fucking everything up almost as bad as WoD.

other then those two expacs, you can bet a mage warr or rogue spec would be OP at any raid/arena/BG they went into, probably frost arms or ass.

and i should point out, wrath was the most populous expac the game ever had and MoP was the only exapc to stall the post-cata decline causing the game to plateau again until the WoD announcement.

[Argorwal]

warcraftlogs has a classic section already filling up with parses.

Go look at at the deltas yourself and see if you think bringing the hybrids are worth it.

[Unholyground]

Doubt.

Maybe when your dudes wand the skull, rockbiter (pitiful amount of threat per swing) + shock (about x2 threat per damage) is enough to lock one target on you, but i bet one flamestrike will aggro everything off you.

Just as an example - you are level 40 shaman tanking SM (since it's about the level range where shit hits the fan with shaman tanking), your one-hander swings for ~100 (~160 threat every 2 or so seconds, thanks to rockbiter) and you can earth shock every 6 seconds for 225 (450 threat) which is... enough for two fireballs (~800 threat), then mob will start running towards mage, you lose your auto-attacks and rely on earth shock to get aggro back.

Off course you have other tools, like, chain lightning on pull (120 on main target), fire nova totem (200), magma totem (40 every 2 seconds), but it's not enough when compared to x2 threat that warriors get from defensive stance, ~130 threat per sunder armour cast at level 40 and battleshout threat.

Also i have to mention susceptibility to damage (since obviously mail/plate armoured warrior is going to take less damage than leather/mail armoured shaman), it limits your group significantly compared to a group with a warrior (which takes less damage, spend less mana, spend less time eating/drinking), and warriors have one "oh shit" button usable every 30 minutes - retaliation + AoE taunt combo for massive pulls .


Don't take that as i'm trying to insult your choice to play, but a tanking shaman have way less tools to tank than a tanking warrior. Getting complimented is nice, i get complimented for conjuring water, dropping a portal, rooting a feared mob, opening lockboxes regularly, but i don't consider myself better than any other player just because of that.


Agree on that. There were always similar-minded people clumping up to do some quirky stuff. But it's very important to find the right people, instead of pushing your agenda into strangers

- - - Updated - - -



you forget that these two don't have finite resource and have significant boosts for their auto-attacks (weapon mastery, raw damage boost, weapon speed buffs). Again, compared to a ret paladin their auto-attack damage simply scales better.

Regardless, I have tanked for tons of random groups and they all said they would rather have me tank than other tanks, and I found a magical build that allows me to generate more threat than players 10 levels higher than me. Earth Shock is 300 percent damage as threat too, plus a 20+ percent crit allows my rockbiter to hold aggro very easily. I am shifting the paradigm on my server and that was one of my goals going into classic

[Jotaux]

Yes. and im still wondering whoelse hes talking to. "You guys have no clue xD"

You obviously have no clue. The dots aren't a concern because feral druids do not use their dots. It doesn't matter if you play druid or not, the dots are still not going to take a debuff slot because they aren't used. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

[kail]

A hybrid is any class that can do anything else besides DPS.

ie not a hunter, mage, warlock or rogue.

Pure DPS should always do more DPS than a hybrid class.

Cept for warriors apparently.

[Khaza-R]

Blizzard only labeled Paladin, Shaman and Druids as hybrids in Vanilla.

They considered Warriors as primary tanks and Priests as primary healers.

[Coffeh]

Because those hybrid classes are literally THAT useless. It would be the same as not having anyone in that raid spot at all.

Such a ridiculous thing to say, and proof you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

But anyway, to reply to the OP: yes, play what you want. Clearly any raid composition is viable.

[Rixxis]

Idk why this discussion happens every day and goes on forever. If your raid comp can be perfect and you can stack Mages/Warrs/Rogues then yeah you aren't going to take an Enhance Shaman. That is obvious. But virtually every single guild is not going to have the perfect comp. You can barely get the perfect comp in a 5-man group. So in reality you are going to take meme spec players because you aren't capable of filling up 40 slots with ideal classes. Would it be better not to have to do this? Yeah, but who fucking cares, it's an impossibility for virtually every single guild to be in this position so it's worthless to consider it. What boomkin player really expects to be put in over a Mage? As if the majority of guilds have 80 people waiting to get on and the GM has to make tough choices of who to put in. The only thing to come to terms with is that playing a bad DPS spec just makes you lower on loot priority which is the price you pay for playing a bad DPS spec.

[Aphrel]

You obviously have no clue. The dots aren't a concern because feral druids do not use their dots. It doesn't matter if you play druid or not, the dots are still not going to take a debuff slot because they aren't used. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

ill see ya on logs i guess, may the greatest class win.