Migrants easily cut through Trump's wall with a $100 saw

[zenkai]

One would think then, that with such a significant minority of Spanish speakers the "functional" option is embracing bilingualism.

Canada does it just fine.

Yeah you guys get a long great. lol

[Endus]

It's not about who is first, it's about what is dominant in a current functional society. If we use your logic then we all should be speaking Navajo

This is fundamentally irrational. You're trying to enforce dominance based on it already being dominant. And your motivation is fear that your language will no longer be dominant, which would, in your own argument, mean you'd have to give it up and learn the new language. And I'm sure you wouldn't protest that, right?

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Yeah you guys get a long great. lol

We do. The tensest fights we've had over language have been less testy than, well, basically any issue in American politics.

[Elegiac]

We do. The tensest fights we've had over language have been less testy than, well, basically any issue in American politics.

Canada: Literally conducts an entire government and legal system bilingually.

America: People freak out because there's an option for Spanish on the ATM.

Remind me which is the less rational viewpoint, again?

[zenkai]

This is fundamentally irrational. You're trying to enforce dominance based on it already being dominant. And your motivation is fear that your language will no longer be dominant,

What an ignorant argument, I don't fear anything I am approaching from a logical standpoint.

Move to Japan, and when people complain you didn't bother trying to function in their society use your google translate to tell them they are "motivated by fear?

which would, in your own argument, mean you'd have to give it up and learn the new language. And I'm sure you wouldn't protest that, right?

Now you're not even being unrealistic, such a culture shift to a different language would take generations.

If I move to Mexico I promise you Endus, I would focus on learning Spanish, because that's what a rational functioning adult who want's to contribute to the society they live in would do.

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Canada: Literally conducts an entire government and legal system bilingually.

America: People freak out because there's an option for Spanish on the ATM.

Remind me which is the less rational viewpoint, again?

My wife teaches at a school full of immigrants and refuges, there are 11 different languages spoken in that school. You know how it all works? The fucking kids learn English, the teachers rely on a lot of older students to teach the younger students for translation and teaching, and a lot of kids have to translate for their parents.

Whats your fix, have text books, signs in 11 different languages? LMAO.

[Endus]

What an ignorant argument, I don't fear anything I am approaching from a logical standpoint.

"We have to suppress all languages other than the one I speak because I only speak one language" is not remotely logical, in any respect whatsoever.

Move to Japan, and when people complain you didn't bother trying to function in their society use your google translate to tell them they are "motivated by fear?

While I haven't been to Japan, I have been to Spain, France, Italy, and Greece. None of them were hostile to me for having difficulties with the primary language there.

Now you're not even being unrealistic, such a culture shift to a different language would take generations.

1> No it doesn't. Takes one, and only if the first is resistant to learning a new language.
2> Kind of ironic how you're acknowledging that language shifts can be difficult while simultaneously proposing abusing citizens for not adjusting quickly enough for you.

If I move to Mexico I promise you Endus, I would focus on learning Spanish, because that's what a rational functioning adult who want's to contribute to the society they live in would do.

If you're noticing people using Spanish enough to be bothersome, while living in the USA, same rationale applies.

But you won't be consistent about that, because you're making this irrationally nationalist.

[Captain N]

While I haven't been to Japan, I have been to Spain, France, Italy, and Greece. None of them were hostile to me for having difficulties with the primary language there.

Just to add to this point. In Madrid my wife (who speaks conversational Spanish) had issues ordering a mixed drink in a bar. The bartender wasn't hostile and as the two of them tried to figure out exactly what she wanted a bilingual waitress joined the conversation to make sure the order was right.

In America my kid was going on a tour of French art where the tour guide was also French. My kid who speaks the language fluently conversed with the tour guide in their native language until someone who wasn't even part of the group decided to make the "We speak English here" nonsense.

It's two completely different things with language barriers in the US and without.

[zenkai]

"We have to suppress all languages other than the one I speak because I only speak one language" is not remotely logical, in any respect whatsoever.

Never saying you should suppress a language, I said whatever country you live in you should learn the local language, this isn't rocket science

While I haven't been to Japan, I have been to Spain, France, Italy, and Greece. None of them were hostile to me for having difficulties with the primary language there.

Good, in no way did I say it was Ok to be hostile against people who don't speak your language, in fact I even said it a couple of post up, so why you are bringing up this point is beyond me

1> No it doesn't. Takes one, and only if the first is resistant to learning a new language.
2> Kind of ironic how you're acknowledging that language shifts can be difficult while simultaneously proposing abusing citizens for not adjusting quickly enough for you.

Please show me a country that completely changed languages in one generation.

If you're noticing people using Spanish enough to be bothersome, while living in the USA, same rationale applies.

But you won't be consistent about that, because you're making this irrationally nationalist.

Now you're straight up lying and putting words in my mouth. I am all for people speaking whatever language they want, I am stating everyone should learn a common language.


Imagine if you moved to a country and didn't bother to learn or read their language, how would you communicate your emergency medial issue if you can't speak to them, wait on a translator?

I mean my god man, expecting people to be able to communicate with each other in a functional society is fucking common sense.

What is your irrational fear of expecting people to assimilate in the country they live in?

[lockedout]

How are immigrants supposed to integrate if they don't even understand the country's main language?

I mean not knowing english in 2019 is a pretty big handicap, not just in America.

Not knowing Spanish is a bigger handicap where I live in NJ. Walmart workers speak no English.

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Oh, so you speak Navajo then?

That’s not the local language.

[Endus]

Never saying you should suppress a language, I said whatever country you live in you should learn the local language, this isn't rocket science

No, but it is suppression of language diversity. You saying "no it's not" but demanding subjugation to your own language preference is just you contradicting yourself.

Please show me a country that completely changed languages in one generation.

Why are you moving goalposts? Again? This wasn't what you said, before. We were talking about a single person learning a language. I'm not interested in you taking shots at straw men you've slapped my face onto.

Now you're straight up lying and putting words in my mouth. I am all for people speaking whatever language they want, I am stating everyone should learn a common language.

Which means you're directly contradicting yourself before you even finish that last sentence.

Forcing people to learn a common language is about subjugation other languages; you can't be in favor of them speaking whatever language they want and want to oblige them to speak another.

Imagine if you moved to a country and didn't bother to learn or read their language, how would you communicate your emergency medial issue if you can't speak to them, wait on a translator?

While I haven't moved to such a country, I've visited them, and the same would have been true. You get by. With understanding and empathy. It's not, to use something you just said, rocket science.

I mean my god man, expecting people to be able to communicate with each other in a functional society is fucking common sense.

You're the one insisting that they have to change to communicate with you, rather than taking it upon yourself to make sure you can communicate with them.

You're the one establishing barriers.

What is your irrational fear of expecting people to assimilate in the country they live in?

Bilingualism is not an indication of a lack of assimilation, in the first place. Hence why I said you were engaging in rank nationalism.

[Malaky]

Not knowing Spanish is a bigger handicap where I live in NJ. Walmart workers speak no English.

Isnt that the point?

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I'm against people insisting that others "speak English, because this is America" when English is as foreign a language to the Americas as Spanish.

The point of language is to facilitate communication. "Official Languages" are nothing more than a shibboleth designed to clearly delineate an ingroup and outgroup.

Are you claiming that english isn't the major language in america?

Or arguably the most universally known language in the world?

[zenkai]

No, but it is suppression of language diversity. You saying "no it's not" but demanding subjugation to your own language preference is just you contradicting yourself.

No it's not, the ability to comnicate in a society with other people makes you functional.

Why are you moving goalposts? Again? This wasn't what you said, before. We were talking about a single person learning a language. I'm not interested in you taking shots at straw men you've slapped my face onto.

It isn't a strawman, you made aclaim I asked for proof, now you're dodging it with a bullshit detraction tactic.

Which means you're directly contradicting yourself before you even finish that last sentence.

Forcing people to learn a common language is about subjugation other languages; you can't be in favor of them speaking whatever language they want and want to oblige them to speak another.

Where did I ever say force? I said you should how can you force someone to learn a different langue, you make no fucking sense. You either have a hard time grasping the concept I keep repeating or you're playing ignorant.

While I haven't moved to such a country, I've visited them, and the same would have been true. You get by. With understanding and empathy. It's not, to use something you just said, rocket science.

How do you plan on driving when you can't read the road signs, pull out your phone for google translate im the middle of an intersection? Try being realistic.

You're the one insisting that they have to change to communicate with you, rather than taking it upon yourself to make sure you can communicate with them.

Again you're a liar, you know I said it's about learning the local language, who can it be about forcing people to learn my language when I stated if I moved to Mexico I would focus on learning spanish? I mean you're straight up making bullshit assumptions, try arguing honestly.

You're the one establishing barriers.

Trying to learn a language in the country you live in is the opposite of putting up barriers.

Bilingualism is not an indication of a lack of assimilation, in the first place. Hence why I said you were engaging in rank nationalism.\

Yes it is, if you can't function in a society because you refuse to learn their language you're refusing assimilate.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I've yet to see anyone arguing for immigration reform want a properly regulated system. It all basically comes down to Anyone that wants to should be able to move to x/y/z country!.

I've never seen this, ever. If you haven't seen what I'm talking about, you're just plain NOT LOOKING. If you don't think Democrats have introduced some seriously well thought out immigration bills that streamline the immigration system WITHOUT letting everyone in, then you should probably go educate yourself hmm?

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bil...migration/6206

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Just to add to this point. In Madrid my wife (who speaks conversational Spanish) had issues ordering a mixed drink in a bar. The bartender wasn't hostile and as the two of them tried to figure out exactly what she wanted a bilingual waitress joined the conversation to make sure the order was right.

In America my kid was going on a tour of French art where the tour guide was also French. My kid who speaks the language fluently conversed with the tour guide in their native language until someone who wasn't even part of the group decided to make the "We speak English here" nonsense.

It's two completely different things with language barriers in the US and without.

Most countries are EXTREMELY accommodating to language barriers, while I know conversational spanish, japanese and french well enough, there are other places I've been where that wasn't the native language, and people were always happily willing to help me work through what I needed. America is perhaps the only place where fuckwads go "WE SPEAK ENGLISH HERE SO LEARN IT IMMIGRANT SCUM!" even to fucking tourists.

[Endus]

No it's not, the ability to comnicate in a society with other people makes you functional.

Communication runs deeper than just vocal language.

Where did I ever say force? I said you should how can you force someone to learn a different langue, you make no fucking sense. You either have a hard time grasping the concept I keep repeating or you're playing ignorant.

By making it difficult for society to accommodate language differences, you're attempting to force them to adopt your language preference.

This isn't complicated. You just don't like me using terms that paint your views in the light they deserve.

How do you plan on driving when you can't read the road signs, pull out your phone for google translate im the middle of an intersection? Try being realistic.

Again, I've traveled in countries where I didn't speak the language, even where I didn't share the same alphabet.

Signs weren't a problem. You can figure that stuff out pretty easily, if you make even a modicum of effort. And this was in a time before we all had smartphones with translation apps.

Again you're a liar, you know I said it's about learning the local language, who can it be about forcing people to learn my language when I stated if I moved to Mexico I would focus on learning spanish? I mean you're straight up making bullshit assumptions, try arguing honestly.

Right, it's about forcing them to learn the local language, because you want society to refuse to accommodate their preferred language.

I'm not lying, at all. This is what you're talking about; linguistic imperialism.

Trying to learn a language in the country you live in is the opposite of putting up barriers.

Having to learn that language is surmounting a barrier.

So no. It really isn't.

Yes it is, if you can't function in a society because you refuse to learn their language you're refusing assimilate.

Assimilation is primarily driven from the host country, not the immigrant. By being open and accepting of differences, and inviting them to become part of that society regardless.

Here's a simple question; would you be satisfied if the USA declared that both English and Spanish were the official languages of the nation?

[lockedout]

Here's a simple question; would you be satisfied if the USA declared that both English and Spanish were the official languages of the nation?

That would be ridiculous. Not having an official language makes more sense here since this is the "melting pot."
The problem is when you work in an establishment where everything is advertised in English, the items are only listed in English etc and the workers only speak Spanish.

Then there is a major barrier.

[Kaleredar]

We're getting pretty far afield of the actual point of discussion here, people.

That being... the abject failure of yet another one of Trump's promises. We should focus on that.

[smityx]

$100 saw. They over paid. Can prolly find a good 30' ladder on the cheap. Or just get one of those kids that have scaled it like islanders do with palm trees and tie a hand made rope ladder at the top. Or just walk a mile down the wall and walk across cause no actual new wall has been built only replacing already exiting wall that needed refurbishing.

[Kaleredar]

$100 saw. They over paid. Can prolly find a good 30' ladder on the cheap. Or just get one of those kids that have scaled it like islanders do with palm trees and tie a hand made rope ladder at the top. Or just walk a mile down the wall and walk across cause no actual new wall has been built only replacing already exiting wall that needed refurbishing.

Unfortunately Republicans don't see that as the thorough condemnation of the wall as a concept, and instead as a "WELL WE OBVIOUSLY NEED TO POUR MORE MONEY INTO THIS FAILURE!"

I think it's like a cost-sunk fallacy thing at this point for them.

[Malaky]

Forcing people to learn a common language is about subjugation other languages; you can't be in favor of them speaking whatever language they want and want to oblige them to speak another.

Imagine moving to live in Japan and then bitching and complaining about the japanese people "trying to subjugate you to their language".

Just when I thought this nonsense couldn't get any more ridiculous.

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Right, it's about forcing them to learn the local language, because you want society to refuse to accommodate their preferred language.

They're not forced, they can live their life on signs and understanding 10% of what happens around them.
Wouldn't call that integration though, or even a decent stay.

By the way the reason of the incomprehension here is due to the fact that when Zenkai says "should" Endus hears "must".
Feels like a language barrier, which is quite ironic.

[Blur4stuff]

It doesn't matter how you feel about immigration. A wall on the southern border is just plain dumb. It will not work. It would be a huge waste of resources.

Let's recap:

1. most undocumented do not illegally cross on the southern border

2. no matter how nice the wall, people will go over, through, and under it

3. even if the wall was perfect, people would go around it

4. supposed small government conservatives would have to steal thousands of acres of land

5. it would wreck local ecosystems

6. it would do Zero do stop or even slow drug/cartel related activities

7. it would do Zero to make the country safer from any terrorist related threats


In order to support a wall across the entirety of the southern border you have to completely ignore reality. Even if you're the most hateful, racist anti-immigrant person alive on the planet, you'd still have to agree that a wall makes no sense. There would be several dozen other things to do first that would have more of an impact on immigration.

but a wall works at <insert place here>

that place isn't the US southern border

[Kaleredar]

It doesn't matter how you feel about immigration. A wall on the southern border is just plain dumb. It will not work. It would be a huge waste of resources.

Let's recap:

1. most undocumented do not illegally cross on the southern border

2. no matter how nice the wall, people will go over, through, and under it

3. even if the wall was perfect, people would go around it

4. supposed small government conservatives would have to steal thousands of acres of land

5. it would wreck local ecosystems

6. it would do Zero do stop or even slow drug/cartel related activities

7. it would do Zero to make the country safer from any terrorist related threats


In order to support a wall across the entirety of the southern border you have to completely ignore reality. Even if you're the most hateful, racist anti-immigrant person alive on the planet, you'd still have to agree that a wall makes no sense. There would be several dozen other things to do first that would have more of an impact on immigration.




that place isn't the US southern border

Ah but you forgot the two things it actually does do, and are really all that conservatives care about:

1) Make liberals angry

2) show “brown people” they’re not wanted.

It’s entirely immaterial that the reason it makes liberals angry is because it’s a horrendously stupid waste of time and money, or that the aforementioned “brown people” could do any of the also aforementioned methods of circumnavigating the wall; what matters is that liberals are angry and immigrants are told to stay away.

And for that result, no amount of taxpayer money is too great for the republicans to flush down the crapper.