Is there any chance we could do away with the timer in M+? Alot of us don't like it.

[Kaver]

I agree with you, the timer on-screen is pressing players to rush. Please all remember that humans are super emotional, we cannot make rational decisions like "just ignore the timer". It is stressful to meet the deemed expectation. I personally do not like timed activities with others. I recalled I was shit-talked by a rogue for missing the mark by 15 seconds while we all agreed that it's just a loot-only run. It's just natural that way, people cannot be less emotional; someone was pissed =)). In short, I dislike the atmosphere that the timer brings to the group. I simply dislike the feeling of constant pressure, we had enough in real life. I understand the argument by the OP of this thread. I could only dream that they make some sorts of super hard 5men mod like the heroic Cata dungeons were. OR a MAGE TOWER version for a 5 men group, without a timer.

Since I'm not a special snowflake as someone above said, it's fine if Blizzard has no other offer than M+. The majority of people are enjoying it, just leave that alone. I offer no solution as the current version of M+ is near perfect. We could all form groups to do non-timed M+, we just don't need to meet the timer, still get something at the end. Not upgrading the key is fine, as long as all members of the group agreed to that. But again, I'm not sure how that's going to work out in reality, because the timer is still there, hard to ignore it )

I love the timer, but I do think their should be an option where you could push keys just based on the difficulty and not time. The only problem I see right now, is that your key is reduced in level if you don't make the timer. Blizzard could tweak this system a little bit

[Nite92]

It can be better. Learn to have an open mind.

Removing the timer wont do that, because the timer is the foundation of the system, lol.

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I ran an unhealthy amount of 5man content, we're talking well over 1000 runs, in every xpack, in every roles but mostly tanks.

I have NEVER seen not even once, a group where the majority of people wanted to slow down and take their time looking at the scenery or sitting there or seriously I don't know what other kind of time wasting activities you want to do in a dungeon. And I'm talking before M+ existed. People don't want to take more time than necessary to run a dungeon, that's just an insanely silly thing to beg for.

Before timers existed people still wanted to clear dungeons fast, doing things efficiently, quick, is profitable, both in-game and real life. So even if you get that super challenging but no timer mode, people are still gonna want to do it fast because being slow sucks. It just simply fucking sucks, it's not even subjective at this point why the hell would you want to STOP PLAYING AND DO NOTHING TO SLOW THINGS DOWN because that's what "taking your time" inevitably comes down to. If you're not pulling and killing, it means you're not doing anything (aka not playing) because there's nothing else to do in a dungeon other than pulling and killing.

I'm asking this question seriously: what are, in details, the actions you want to do as a player in a dungeon that requires slow gameplay pacing?

And let me tell you this before you reply. The stress caused by a timer is a psychological issue that most people are not affected by, it's not a problem with the game, it's a problem with you. You can get rid of that problem by working on yourself, you don't need the game to be changed. I'm not saying this as an insult, it's a legit psychological issue most likely related to Chronophobia (fear of time) which can manifest itself from things like timers, seeing time passing by, growing old, etc, or Atychiphobia (fear of failure) when you consider the timer running out to be your failure.

You may not be directly or even consciously asking for it but wanting runs with no timer is indicative of "looking for a safe space" for lack of better words, I'm not trying to make a reference to leftism and all that shit but I mean you search for comfort instead of "facing your fears".

Mechanically speaking dungeons (and raids and other content or game modes or even other games) always revolve around doing things quickly, the timer is just a measuring stick to determine different levels of rewards at the end of a run, just like you would get different scores in other games after a mission or something. There never was any incentive in the game to make people want to waste time, that is false in every imaginable levels, we even want to level fast.

If you have problem timing keys and bring out the excuse of "I wanna take my time" then that's a different issue. The concept of "but I want to take my time" is misleading, the keyword is not "time", it's "my", your time is not the same as other people's time, your time is defined by what you are able to do and maybe these capacities are not good enough past a certain level. I mean not everyone can do 25's all the time, right? We all have our limits, play within yours, you get the rewards you deserve for that level and that's it, you're not allowed to complain or ask for more, your first task is to get better or solve your mental blockings in regards to timers. The game and the devs are not here to create tailor made game modes for every type of disabilities out there, they make one product, if you like it then play it, if you don't then stop using it.

The realities of game design in relation to gameplay (specifically loot progression) are this:
If they make a new game mode without timer it either has to give weaker rewards which means most people won't participate or it will be seen as alt catch up mechanic.
If this new game mode gives equivalent reward but has no timer, it needs to be so hard that in reality if you're not able to make the timer in M+ you also won't be good enough to clear that new game mode and therefore get no reward from it. This would also change the entire progression system of the game since we would be talking about basically 5man raid at this point, so all raiding has to be tweaked in consideration. That's a lot of work for a company already struggling, all that just to please people with a fear of timer? Why should Blizzard make efforts and not you? No I'm serious, why should you not make any effort?
Another option is making this new challenging-but-no-timer game mode give the best loot but this means it's the new end game, what happens with raiding and M+? Steps in progression? In this case you're fucked cuz you would need to do the content you don't like in order to reach the content you like. Deleted from the game? This is a development headache and most likely would not end well. Make the new mode scale? Again that's asking for M+ to be deleted and completely ignores the core concept that this new game mode should be challenging.

TLDR The vast majority of players enjoy being efficient, which means clearing runs quick and this has been the case since vanilla. Adding a timer changes nothing to the game mechanically and any issues you have with it is psychological, therefore not Blizzard's responsibility and you can fix it yourself.

M+, gives you an 2nd PvE opportunity to progress and compare yourself to others. You know, if it is so stupid, get like-minded people and play while ignoring the timer.

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There are other ways to keep the dungeons competitive, not just a timer.

Just make them harder, have death limits, no exiting and re-entering (for changing talents/gear and whatnot) etc..

Yes, there are. How many difficulties you want to have for dungeons? 5 more? Well that will go down well, I'm sure.

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I love the timer, but I do think their should be an option where you could push keys just based on the difficulty and not time. The only problem I see right now, is that your key is reduced in level if you don't make the timer. Blizzard could tweak this system a little bit

Oh gosh. NO. GET GOOD if you want to get to higher keys. Just like you need to get better if you cant clear hc but want to. There is reason, why people do not reach the keylevel which gives the highest ilvl reward over a m+ season. And that is: You are not trying, maybe you tell yourself, that you are trying, but you are not. Each person even with less then avg. intelligence can do that easily. You choose to not put effort into the game and thus do not get the reward you want. So there are 2 options. Get good or accept it. Just like you dont get hc loot if you are super shit at the game.

Edit: There is nothing wrong with not wanting to improve, but not wanting to improve and progress further, than your skill level allows, annoys the fuck out of me.

[ShadowHopper]

Yo, crazy idea right here.

What if... The dungeons were difficult, and yielded gear based off of their difficulty? And then even more difficult dungeons were released later in the expac, with even better rewards. You would have to use CC, and group coordination to ensure success.

wait a minute... this idea seems kinda familiar...

[Puupi]

Yes, there are. How many difficulties you want to have for dungeons? 5 more? Well that will go down well, I'm sure.

You do realize you are posting in a thread about mythic+?
How does that concept work....?

[Kaver]

Oh gosh. NO. GET GOOD if you want to get to higher keys. Just like you need to get better if you cant clear hc but want to. There is reason, why people do not reach the keylevel which gives the highest ilvl reward over a m+ season. And that is: You are not trying, maybe you tell yourself, that you are trying, but you are not. Each person even with less then avg. intelligence can do that easily. You choose to not put effort into the game and thus do not get the reward you want. So there are 2 options. Get good or accept it. Just like you dont get hc loot if you are super shit at the game.

Edit: There is nothing wrong with not wanting to improve, but not wanting to improve and progress further, than your skill level allows, annoys the fuck out of me.

Relax my dude. You're really cool and all but you need to get your facts straight tough guy.

I love the timer element and I push high keys all the time. I have no issue personally with the game being very challenging. I also do mythic raiding if that can please your small-minded elitist brain. I bet I could wipe the floor with you in a M+. No need to rage at me

But me being a decent human being (not that you would know anything about that) I also care about other people. And I just feel bad for those who don't like the timer element. There is no need to be a jerk just because someone likes other things than you. Hope that's okay with you superman

[Gaidax]

What would even be the point then?

[Phaine]

The timer IS the challenge of mythic +. Otherwise people would sheep every mob and dps them down one at a time. Hard pass.

Haha, people using cc in dungeons? Haha

[ravenmoon]

It just promotes rush rush rush gameplay, and sets up pugs for toxicity.

Maybe just add an option to run them with one chest at the end, without a timer? That keeps everyone happy.

I think that is what raids give you. M+ and their timer provides a different style of group content I feel is acceptable.

Bei g pressured is part of a challenge, and if it doesnt make you feel good, focus on raids more that provide even better rewards and dont have that pressure.

I dont think the devs should develop a different way, m+ was one of their best new post launch features, making dungeons relevant again. Making new features like Island expeditions and Warfronts an enjoyable and challenging game play alternative to existing raids, dungeons, NGs and Arenas is the way to go

[Timewalker]

Mythic+ stresses me the fuck out. I did a +6 once, and it was just too much. I just hover around +0 to +4 now, never touching anything above no matter what.

[Kumorii]

no... beating content that's hard is satisfying... not racing against a timer that's mostly spent on killing trash... the timer doesn't make the dungeons difficult... you don't run into a wall where the boss will just wipe you over and over... where you won't beat it... you are stopped by the timer, not the difficulty of the encounters... they should just scrap the timer and increase the difficulty on mythic dungeons up a lot... make the bosses actually capable of wiping people in mythic and then they don't get any loot if they can't beat the boss...

You get what you want when you do high keys. At some point the mechanic will one shot you if you do a mistake and if you can't kill the bosses regardless of timer you don't get loot.

[Keashaa]

The timer IS the challenge of mythic +. Otherwise people would sheep every mob and dps them down one at a time. Hard pass.

If a group really requires to sheep every mob, what would be the result
- option 1: they will require a large amount of time. So what's the problem with that? No one will run 10 dungeons if they require that much time. The only "problem" will be that people may get a high level weekly chest...
- option 2: they won't be able to kill a specific boss depending on the affixes

In either case no one (except the players running the dungeon because they need that much time OR won't be able to complete the dungeon) would be harmed by the removal of the timer for all keystone levels below 10.

[Kumorii]

And that's not fun. Getting one shot isn't much of a game. They might as well just put a pillar that immediately kills the group if they start the timer.

Some people actually enjoy doing everything they can to survive despite taking incredible damage, and pushing forward despite that. Ever-increasing damage taken until getting one shotted isn't the solution. Timed runs aren't the solution. Neither of these give a worthwhile feeling of accomplishment at the end, because they're busy stressing you the fuck out without being difficult or challenging. You can either do enough damage to beat the timer, or not. You can either survive the encounters, or you cannot. There's nothing there that makes it much of an accomplishment.

And then you have to repeat it ad-nauseum forever. At what point does it like an accomplishment?

You seemed to miss the "at some point". Which means you can adjust the difficult to what you feel adequate to what you enjoy experiencing.

I don't get the repeat part because that's what you do with dungeons regardless of timer or not. Nor do I get the achievement part either... Either you overcome something or you don't. That's how all games work. If you don't overcome it it's to difficult and you have to improve. Or you lower difficulty. If you don't feel achievement then perhaps you doing to easy of a challenge. Which means increase difficulty. This is true for both timed and non timed content.

[Kumorii]

Not true. Other games have more than the small amount of repetitious content that MMOs have. Other games create additional modes to play when content gets stale. Other games provide ways in which the players can customize their content. Other games don't focus their entire game around one style of play, and ignore all else until the next new shiny thing comes around and their current content, once again, gets tossed to the side to be ignored.

"Ever increasing damage taken until you can't progress" isn't the only solution. "Varying, equally-rewarding content" is the solution.

This has nothing to do with what I said? I never said they focus on one style of gameplay... I said it has varied difficulty in which you, the player, have control of what difficult you want to indulge in by choosing the level of key you want... not sure what this have to do with different content and various modes? WoW has other content and various modes...

We recently got mechagon including it's hard mode AND ironmode on top of that to get the best rewards. However, since this is a RPG you eventually outgear that content so now it's piss easy regardless because you outgear it and since you can't use keys for that mode, well. There is no difficulty curve for it. The challenge is no more.

Same goes with mage tower, difficult at one point, then you outgear it and you require less skill to do it. Same principle. Scaleable content is a necessity when gear is in question. How do we scale it? Numbers, since that's what our gear changes.

It's not 'difficult' to have a mechanic that one shots people. You can't 'improve' past getting one shot - You can only GEAR past getting one shot. You also can't always 'improve' your DPS - There is in fact a simulated, guaranteed, 100% maximum output you can get, and it's gotten by doing a perfect rotation. Which, once again, means at some point you can only GEAR to get higher DPS.

Ofc it's difficult... it's way more difficult than if you can take 10 hits before you die.. it's way more difficult than 2 hits..etc etc. One require perfect execution throughout the entire fight, one allows to have mistakes, which you can recover from and be able to make another 2 or 10 or 100 mistakes.

Then if it's a difficulty curve that YOU enjoy it's a different matter. Doesn't change the fact it becomes more difficult.

Not sure what DPS have to do with this either, except that DPS makes fights easier due to shorten the duration which results in less room for mistakes. And yeah, there is a limit, what's your point? It means that eventually you can't outgear your own skill or execution and you the player matters more in your actions than your gear. Thus increasing skill requirement.

There is no difficulty to gearing, either. It's a roulette wheel. Or, rather, dozens of roulette wheels, of which zero have any interaction with one another. Each different one spins when you do content, but they're all always rolling on the same table, for the same pieces, of which you may or may not already have. You have no control over them.

Didin't make a comment on gearing progression.

And yes. This is true for both timed and non-timed content as well. "Increased difficulty" doesn't mean "increased damage taken." The latter often barely amounts to a difficulty increase at all, until it one shots you, in which case it's literally impassable without gear upgrades.

Exclusively? No, absolutely not...but increasing damage taken increases difficulty, there is no denying that.

"At some point" the game breaks, is what you're saying. The progression of the game breaks "at some point" and we're supposed to just deal with it, is what you're saying.

No i did not say that in the least. Don't be this guy...

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there is no point going that high in mythic plus... loot stops increasing at +15...

Yet people push high keys... probably because they enjoy the increasing challenge and trying to get as high as possible. All through learning and becoming better players through execution and gearing choices depending on key affixes and dungeon you go to.

Almost as if it takes skill.

[Rucati]

no... beating content that's hard is satisfying... not racing against a timer that's mostly spent on killing trash... the timer doesn't make the dungeons difficult... you don't run into a wall where the boss will just wipe you over and over... where you won't beat it... you are stopped by the timer, not the difficulty of the encounters... they should just scrap the timer and increase the difficulty on mythic dungeons up a lot... make the bosses actually capable of wiping people in mythic and then they don't get any loot if they can't beat the boss...

???

If you take away the timer you can Bloodlust and pop all CDs on literally every trash pull in the dungeon. There would be quite literally no difficulty whatsoever. The timer is exactly the thing that makes m+ difficult, because bosses will never be difficult. A boss is hard if you don't know mechanics, once you learn them you do the exact same thing every single time, so sure maybe the first week of the expansion mythics would be hard, but then everyone kills every boss first try and they're nothing but loot pinatas.

Also sounds like you don't do anything over +15, because mechanics that one shot you if you screw them up are on almost every single boss, especially on Tyrannical.

And that's not fun. Getting one shot isn't much of a game. They might as well just put a pillar that immediately kills the group if they start the timer.

Some people actually enjoy doing everything they can to survive despite taking incredible damage, and pushing forward despite that. Ever-increasing damage taken until getting one shotted isn't the solution. Timed runs aren't the solution. Neither of these give a worthwhile feeling of accomplishment at the end, because they're busy stressing you the fuck out without being difficult or challenging. You can either do enough damage to beat the timer, or not. You can either survive the encounters, or you cannot. There's nothing there that makes it much of an accomplishment. More importantly, being UNABLE to do those things is an immediate downer for the rest of the group - If your group wipes, you're VERY likely to lose your group and have to start over at a lower key, because everyone wants the most reward possible, and you're not going to get that in a group that can't +3.

And then you have to repeat it ad-nauseum forever. At what point does it feel like an accomplishment?

Completing a +15 in time with your friends for the first time is incredibly rewarding and one of the biggest accomplishments in WoW imo. Doing a +20 is another big one, and then really anything past that feels good. Clearing a high key on alts and barely making time is fun and feels quite good when you succeed, especially if it's a dungeon that gives you a hard time usually and you had to try different strats and routes.

I have absolutely no idea what would make you feel accomplished tbh. If beating hard content doesn't do it, and beating timed content doesn't do it, what are you looking for? Easy content that gives an amazing reward so you can feel good when you equip an item you didn't have to do anything to get?

[Rucati]

so it's a problem if people can do that in dungeons but not be capable of killing the bosses but people doing that in a raid is fine? that is some weird logic you got going there... put a timer on raids then... they have 1 hour to clear it and kill the bosses...

The difference is raids require 20 people and have difficult bosses with a lot of mechanics that everyone must do properly. M+ have relatively easy bosses as long as the 5 players can do the mechanics right.

i don't do anything over 15 because i get no reward from it...

You get extra essences and loot, seems like something to me.

[Rucati]

the difference is it's harder to find 20 people that can play at the same time than doing 5-mans... if they had 5-man raids i would have raided with friends always... that is the main problem with raids... all guilds i have tried dies when they go mythic because they can't get enough players, not because the raid is too difficult for them... .

I mean yeah, getting 20 people together is definitely harder than getting 5 together, but they're also objectively harder content. There's a lot more mechanics you need to look out for and individual performance is just as important as mythic raids as it is for m+. Maybe even moreso, if one person in a raid makes it mistake it can just be a wipe, if one person makes a mistake in m+ you can likely brez them and only be behind 10-15 seconds.

no you don't... i can't even get an upgrade from doing +15 unless it gets a corruption that's an upgrade for me... the upgrades in ilvl comes from the chest...

If you do a +20 you can get more than one piece per run, and you get more Residuum (I said essences, think you know what I meant though) so you can buy the 480 gear you need faster. Sure they'll only be 465 but you can still get BiS stats or good corruptions.

[Exhuman]

They should add a system that metric errors, damage taken, deaths, bres, failure to interrupt, etc

And based on that provide an score

[Izenhart]

Mythic+ stresses me the fuck out. I did a +6 once, and it was just too much. I just hover around +0 to +4 now, never touching anything above no matter what.

This is the level of players in here, saying "if only a +15 didn't have a timer, i could easily do it!!!!". What have we come to.


I didn't know that 42 or even goddamn 49 minute timers were considered "go go go mentality" and whatever other slew of buzzwords and talking points people in here made up to cope with the fact that you want easier rewards for less efforts.

Literally easiest way to spot LFR heroes and 600r.io champs, whenever an idiocy like that is pointed out.

You currently do not need to rush in anything below a +15

You could literally walk boss to boss of a King's Rest +12 key with no skips, no flasks, no potions, shit comp, and still time it easily.

I'm trying to wrap my brains around all the people commenting in here, mentioning +6s, +8s, +10s...

Do you know how unbelievably bad and unfit to play M+ do you have to be to consider the timer problematic in a +8 key?

How many ninjapulls of extra packs, missed interrupts, dying to mechanics, low dps and lack of class knowledge you would have to have to brick 49 holy christing minutes inside Shrine of the Storm?

And you think the TIMER is what is locking you out of enjoying this type of content?

[Rucati]

i said they should make the dungeons harder... do you even read what people say? or do you just quote and pretend they said what you think you're addressing in their post? you shouldn't be racing against a timer which is mostly spent killing trash, you should be unable to get loot because you can't beat the bosses...

What do you think we're talking about? Do you even read?

Dungeons literally can't be made harder. They already one shot you if you make mistakes, how much harder do you want them to be? You get loot whether you beat the timer or not, so I have no idea what you're even talking about honestly because nothing you say makes any amount of sense.

You want m+ to be harder but you haven't said how. You think timers are easy but haven't said why.

[plz delete account]

It just promotes rush rush rush gameplay, and sets up pugs for toxicity.

Maybe just add an option to run them with one chest at the end, without a timer? That keeps everyone happy.

"Can we get the Esport but without the thing that makes the esport difficult"