(Spoiler) Kil’jaeden and the Shadowlands

[Soon-TM]

I wonder how many people on MMOC have actually ever written a book or narrative game that has been published and has a fanbase that they listen to slavishly, taking every detail that fans expect and inputing them in the work as they expect Blizzard to do?

Ah, the good ol' ad hominem. Nothing like a refreshing dose of fallacies to have fun with during lunch break...

Here is a little excerpt for you:

It is also a fallacious ad hominem argument to argue that a person presenting statements lacks authority and thus their arguments do not need to be considered. As appeals to a perceived lack of authority, these types of argument are fallacious for much the same reasons as an appeal to authority.

[nerv234]

Who says all he cares about is yummy souls?

I mean literally someone on his pay role broke the viel so it likely factors into his plan some how.

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I still really hope they Dreadlord - Revendreth link isnt literally just that

I think that Dreadlords are the ones from Revendreth that was changed a litle bit by fel.

[Soon-TM]

I think that Dreadlords are the ones from Revendreth that was changed a litle bit by fel.

That poses an interesting question: are dreadlords immortal, in that case? Since the PC (and Sylvanas, I guess) are supposed to be the first mortals allowed to freely enter and leave the Shadowlands.

[matrix123mko]

For sure, this is an opportunity to show power of Kil'jaeden. I hope he will be adressed somehow.

[VinceVega]

Demons don't pass through the Shadowlands when they die. They go straight to the Twisting Nether.

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Oh ok. So I have to like the incredibly dumb writing Blizzard has been doing just because you told me to?

You are talking about "lore" you don't know yet... unless you have access to SL as a whole allready... heavens poeple act as if everything in SL is allready common knowledge.
Blizz said they are going to talk about ingame. So... wait for it. If it is as stupid as everyone seems to know already. Fine go have a ball.

Right now you get angry about headcanon. The demons said they made the helm. Yeah because they did. Still is canon. The only thing we don't know is how they got into the maw... which is literally the story of the expansion. Getting into the Maw and SL...

[DemonHunter18]

first reply. correct reply. imo. exactly this.

thanks.

Maybe Blizz thought not a second about consequences of lore. or quality. or overall stories. or... whatever. maybe they just take whats selling good (or what they think that it sells good) and what is already there, since its cheap.

if you did not realize it: last 7-8 years all what blizz did with lore is recycle endless from all that old shit, that was created when blizz wasnt a money makin machine. by metzen and others. in the „creative“ days. aka the „long ago“ past. warcraft lore ended de facto after WotlK, in the books as well as in game. maybe, at max, MoP. since then, its: „take big lore names and form some shit story out of it“. top of that was Legion, where they just spitted in a thousand lore characters or just names/story in different class order hall stuff, i.e. in cheap quests. or at max as cheap quick shit raid bosses. just look how they burned one of the most important lore characters, like kiljaeden, in a quick shit story, like „and here is your final boss for this patch. have fun.“. same with aszhara in BfA. years ago ppl thought aszhara get an own xpac. lol. burned for the masses. big names. recycled shit. selling point. thats it. nothing more.

that said: not a second a sane person can believe that they thought about the overall story and lore and all the implications when they just use some cool maw story shit to attract ppl with, lol, „deep lore“. its cheap shit. over and over. and they give a fuck. its all for the money. nothing more nothing less. thats all. so every cool speculation why and what is around 15-20 years to late, in the wow universe.

so true.

in Legion, it was Kil'jaeden who???

I'm confident that here we will get either of this 3:

1. demons did shit so they just went there and asked the smith to forge it
2. KJ went there himself but got afraid of the Jailer or something so he made a deal with him
3. they just stole it

basically, it will just be about how incompetent Legion is proving out to be like they were in entirety of WoW.

I'm confident it will be either 2 or 3.

Shadowlands realm is already a retcon it's self.

[Wilian]

When it comes to WoW, there is no such thing as canon. There is a relatively linear string of ideas based on what Blizzard perceives as their rule of cool at the time of it's creation. But the string is far from absolute and whatever their latest rule of cool scheme happens to be, they are more than happy to just chop up anything prior to the point of current moment.

[GaiusLucian]

Or perhaps the Jailor is a fallen/evil Titan and Sargeras being on his own crusade throughout the living world(s).
It would be easy to have one fallen Titan control the Maw and one fallen Titan (Sargeras, untill his *defeat*) controlling the Universe.
So perhaps Sargeras was like "Hey Jailor, can you lend me some cool stuff from your forge" and the jailer would be "sure thing".
Done.

[Aucald]

That poses an interesting question: are dreadlords immortal, in that case? Since the PC (and Sylvanas, I guess) are supposed to be the first mortals allowed to freely enter and leave the Shadowlands.

Demons would be considered immortal, as they can't be killed under normal circumstances. They're not invulnerable, but they don't age and don't die as a matter of course, even to violence, unless you slay them within the Twisting Nether or via special circumstances.

[formerShandalay]

I think Sargeras made a deal with the Jailer and they deceived each other in the process. Sargeras deceived the Jailer and put him in chains, so the universe could end on his terms and not Death's. Maybe he even stole some kind of power from him and put that into Argus, so he'd be his very own death dealer.
And the Jailer sent some loyal Venthyr with Sargeras to become dreadlords and undermine the efforts, so the universe would fall to Death in the end and not to Sargeras. In doing so, he paved the way for the Scourge to be created at some point, of which the Legion would think they are their tools, but in truth the Jailer always had some say in the matter and nudged them just right to break free from the Legion. When Arthas was killed and Bolvar took over, he couldn't influence the new Lich King in the same way, because he had been ... 'imbued'... with the Fire of Life from Alexstrasza, which is why the Jailer needed Sylvanas. And instead of Bolvar manipulated her. Which is also why she tells Bolvar he is a usurper, because he is no ally of the Jailer, as the Lich King was supposed to be.

[Susanoo]

No.

Speculating about Il'gynoth whispers was fun because they were cryptic and meant to be speculated about.
We did not know when or how we would get answers so it made sense to talk about those.

Speculating about X after Blizzard said "okay guys, we ARE going to explain this in a year" is useless.
You already know when and where you are gonna get your answers so at this point you are just wasting time.

60+ responses give or take disagree with you. But hey whatever floats your boat

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Sheesh. I mean, Blizzard clearly told you will know more about Helm of Domination, the how's, the where's and the why's of this gear that originated from Shadowlands.

Just wait a bit, will ya? The whole expansion is literally triggered by it, of course you will get all the explanations about what it is and how it ended up where it ended up.

If you want to speculate, then there are some very clear similarities between Dreadlords and Venthyr, considering Dreadlords sourced Lich King's gear, I'd say it's a good lead.

I don’t know why some of y’all are reading this as a complaining post. Maybe you are reading to many complaining mmo champ forums lately but all I’m asking is to speculate on how Kil’jaeden did this. He’s a powerful demon lord so there’s a ton of avenues he could of got the helm. Some not even requiring he step foot in the shadowlands.

[Mehrunes]

Or you can try having standards.

Meanwhile at Blizzard: "We don't do that here."

This is mmo-champ, where armchair writers and editors let paid professionals know how bad their work is because it doesn't conform to their headcanon.

Because everyone knows that people working in video gaming, especially in the story side of it, are simply colossi in their field. Also, gotta love the implied "you need to be a professional in the field yourself to criticize things". It magically becomes less fallacious each time it's said in saint-Blizzard's defense. Maybe one day it will even constitute an actual argument!

[Steelangel]

Ah, the good ol' ad hominem. Nothing like a refreshing dose of fallacies to have fun with during lunch break...

Wow, dude. That is not an actual ad hom argument. I asked a rhetorical question.

Also learn to link, because you linked argument from authority, not ad hominem.

Here is a little excerpt for you:

There was no appeal to "lack of authority" in my post. I understand that most colleges and high schools are doing remote work right now, that doesn't mean that you can just phone it in to wikipedia. You get an F.

[Soon-TM]

Demons would be considered immortal, as they can't be killed under normal circumstances. They're not invulnerable, but they don't age and don't die as a matter of course, even to violence, unless you slay them within the Twisting Nether or via special circumstances.

Well yes, but the way @nerv234 lay his idea out, dreadlords wouldn't have been demons by the time they left the Shadowlands.

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Wow, dude. That is not an actual ad hom argument. I asked a rhetorical question.

Also learn to link, because you linked argument from authority, not ad hominem.



There was no appeal to "lack of authority" in my post. I understand that most colleges and high schools are doing remote work right now, that doesn't mean that you can just phone it in to wikipedia. You get an F.

I linked appeal to authority because that's where the quote I posted came from. Wow, you didn't even read the thing completely. And yes, you very much invoked lack of authority, because you basically said that you can't criticize writing without being a writer yourself, aka dismissing the argument due to the speaker not being an authority. Keep that F for yourself, you've earned it.

[Steelangel]

Because everyone knows that people working in video gaming, especially in the story side of it, are simply colossi in their field. Also, gotta love the implied "you need to be a professional in the field yourself to criticize things". It magically becomes less fallacious each time it's said in saint-Blizzard's defense. Maybe one day it will even constitute an actual argument!

Read it again.
A professional doesn't mean they are a giant in the field, that implication is of your own making.

My argument is, bluntly: amateur (i.e. unpaid, and unemployed by Blizzard) critics criticize professional (i.e. employed by Blizzard) writers for not writing what the amateurs want or expect them to.

Art is not a service unless it is expressly itself a service. You pay (or don't pay, and just hang out on forms) $15 a month for access to the work of individuals. You may or may not like what they produce, but if you're here on MMOC and paying $15 to Blizzard to hate on everything the produce, that's some kind of Stockholm Syndrome.

[Garymorilix]

60+ responses give or take disagree with you. But hey whatever floats your boat

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I don’t know why some of y’all are reading this as a complaining post. Maybe you are reading to many complaining mmo champ forums lately but all I’m asking is to speculate on how Kil’jaeden did this. He’s a powerful demon lord so there’s a ton of avenues he could of got the helm. Some not even requiring he step foot in the shadowlands.

60+ responses?

And where is the speculation in those? Maybe one or two.
The rest is just people telling "blizzard sucks" in different ways that mean nothing.
Some say the exact same thing I do.

Nobody is "speculating" about the actual topic. Cuz we know we are going to get answers. Some people just hate on those answers even before Blizz releases them.

[Steelangel]

I linked appeal to authority because that's where the quote I posted came from. Wow, you didn't even read the thing completely. And yes, you very much invoked lack of authority, because you basically said that you can't criticize writing without being a writer yourself, aka dismissing the argument due to the speaker not being an authority. Keep that F for yourself, you've earned it.

You linked 'appeal to authority' and called the link 'ad hominem'. You can't even get your story right.

My rhetorical statement was not an argument, and in truth you missed the point of it. I asked how many were writers that changed their work based on their fanbase's critiques and headcanons as they expect Blizzard to do. That is not saying that only content creators can critique. The implication is your own invention.

I gave you the F. It's probably the highest grade you've ever earned---frame it.

[ro9ue]

Maybe Jailer works with legion and gave those away willingly.

On just a practical level, it would make sense the Jailer–who wants to eat souls for power–would back the Legion, an organization that wants to kill everyone.

Keep an eye on the Nathrezim here, they will probably be revealed to be far more important than just Legion grunts.

"The cunning ones kneel before 6 masters, but serve only one."

That's the Nathrezim. They serve all 6 cosmic forces, but truly only serve Death.

[Soon-TM]

You linked 'appeal to authority' and called the link 'ad hominem'. You can't even get your story right.

Because the quote I posted came from appeal to authority and not from ad hominem. Blame Wikipedia editors, if you want, not me - I was just quoting. Reading isn't your strong suit now, is it? No wonder you keep getting F's. Dismissed

[Cyanu]

Hello everyone,

Now that it has been revealed that Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination were created in the maw, more specifically inside Torghast, by the forge of domination. My question is how Kil’jaeden or his agents were able to enter the Maw, venture into Torghast and get Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination, and leave. From what blizzard has said no one enters the maw and leave, but clearly Kil’jaeden already did that and not even just the maw but would have had to enter Torghast. Will this question be answered as we explore the maw?

normally i'm with the people asking those questiosns but... it's Kil'Jaeden, he's the mastermind behind the destructions of countless of worlds, for a being already capable of extraplanar travel it's hardly surprising that he can go on a place apparently we can, right?