Horde Reparations

[Ielenia]

1. Look up "distinction without a difference" and allow yourself to be educated.

Nah. I'll just stick to my explanation how your comparison is faulty.

How many times have we had friendly npc's driven into an uncontrollable rage and we had no choice but to put them down. It's happened frequently going back to classic. Remember Vael?

So you're saying all the orcs should've been killed on sight? You do know there is a big difference between killing ONE individual, and killing every single member of a race/group, right?

Even in the real world we have cases where people killed one another and they weren't severely punished because of diminished capacity, sometimes as simple as one bad day pushing someone too far.

There was still the intent to kill. The orcs are about war and conquest. Even without the demon curse.

Except this was a magical, species wide curse that sent them into such blind rage if they didn't have a target to kill they'd turn on their own people.

Except the blood curse didn't make them go into "such blind rage". It just increased their natural bloodlust. Where did you even get this idea that the orcs would turn on one another?

Not enough sure what your point of the second bullet is.

Shows how little you understand your own comparison, though. You said "Anduin does bad, all of Stormwind is to blame", which is just part of what you got wrong in your comparison, since, again, the orcs in the Horde are the orcs that came through the portal.

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"You brought the clans to ruin."

I mean, it is only a taunt if it is true.

"It is only a taunt if it's true".

So you're saying it's true that Varian whimpered and begged for his life at the Broken Shore? Because Gul'dan taunted the members of the Alliance with those words when they came to face him atop the nightwell.

Also, one thing that I never understood is WHY kilrogg drank the juice since he saw his own death by our hands. 1000 IQ play right there. Jesus...

"The Bleeding Hollow found truth in the surety of their deaths. Upon ascension to ruler of the clan, each Bleeding Hollow chieftain undertook a shamanic vision quest in which they sacrificed their own eye to receive a vision of their own death, but sometimes the vision would show much more. This practice allowed the chieftains to live their life without fear, for they knew the exact day of their demise."

[Minikin]

Nah, it's fine, I was not clear enough about that. I also do not take offense in thos forum anymore, it's just a conversation, it is fine.

That's an admirable way to be on these boards.

I never cared about any point you were trying to make.

You lied to make your point. I called it out.

By far the dumbest thing I've read today.

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Ok Teriz I guess the lore is what you make it and not what the facts and blizzard state. Care to link where I ever said it was all orcs?

Yeah Velen recived a vision, not the other two and he told them maybe they shouldnt join. It still doesn't change the fact that they were tricked or the fact that the orcs also had people saying "maybe we shouldn't do this". Do you seriously not look at any lore and just write fanfiction? I mean you keep claiming the orcs were peaceful when up until like 800ish years ago they were hiding in caves hoping Ogres and other massive creatures don't grab em and do fucked up shit to em. Then they were always fighting shit up until the Draenei came.

Clearly someone needs to teach you orc lore because you seem to know nothing about it. But yeah since you refuse to actually show me any proof I'm wrong while I continually link stuff proving you wrong I'm just going to stop responding as you clearly aren't going to bother to actually look up any info and just say what you feel is right.

You are wasting your time on @Syegfryed. This is not the first thread nor the first time someone has just given up on him either not understanding or just being plainly biased.

As for the rape thing. Draenei weren't even the last. Remember what the zuluhead and nekros did to alexzstraza and the red dragons?

Orcs do have battle as part of their culture but the blood rage did magnify their worst emotions. The frostwolves are prime example that not all want to wage a war of attrition or unjust destruction.

[Syegfryed]

Again show proof. You can't. Seriously I'm done with you. Ogrim and the Frostwolves refusing to drink the demon blood because they knew shit was up is the same as Velen warning the others.

what a nonsense argument, you know why they didn't? because ner'zhul warned Durotan about it , he could only warn then, and by that and others the frostwolves get exiled, he only knew what Ner'zhul told him and it was "not follow Gul'dan's command at an upcoming clan gathering, or he and his people would suffer a fate worse than death"

And at least Sargeras came to them pretending to be a benevolent being unlike Gul'dan. Your bias is clearly showing.

thats just rich, sargeras came as a benevolent being, so excuse the draeneis, ignoring how kil'jaden - the eredar/draenei - came to the orcs faking to be their ancestors, clearly something who have great impact in the orcs religion, but sure "my bias"

Just because you can't read a link doesn't make it any less accurate. Also wtf you talking about peaceful? Do you not know the definition? Do you seriously think they were constantly holding hands with each other?

yes, they did most of time, you can have minor conflict and still not be in war, is that difficult for you to grasp? you think is either nirvana or world war?

"The orc population exploded, and overpopulation and lack of prey to hunt became a serious issue. Tensions between families simmered, but before war erupted many orcs migrated out of Gorgrond in search of new land to settle. Those who remained in Gorgrond formed the Blackrock, Laughing Skull, Lightning's Blade and Dragonmaw clans.

So, you are ignoring that they chose to just migrate and go to other places instead of raging war against each other?

"For generations, the orc clans lived on the fringes of the Gorian Empire of the ogres, engaging in occasional territorial disputes but never committing to all-out war against the ogres.

and here, you are ignoring how they just engaged in occasional territorial disputes, never going on full war against then,, until of course, the event that i clearly stated before?

Yeah totally peaceful. Get a clue dude the only biased one here is you.

so, lets get straight, orcs uniting themselves to defeat the ogres, who, were fucking up the planet, causing imbalance to the elements, basically, saving draenor from annihilation, in the only full war ever, show they are bloodthirsty monsters who were never in peace, since orcs came to be as a race

and you are telling me with a straight face, that i am biased?

I bet you don't even play both factions.

nice strawman, rly add up to the conversation.

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I got the impression that the major wars were between the Alliance and Horde, or at least their predecessors:

First War: Stormwind vs. Old Horde
Second War: Alliance of Lordaeron vs. Old Horde
Third War: Kalimdor Expedition vs. Thrall's Horde
Fourth War: Grand Alliance vs. Thrall's Horde

really didn't make sense that the Alliance-Horde War isn't the Fourth War

third war is the azeroth forces - alliance expedition, horde and the sentinels/night elves x the Legion

the fourth war is the alliance x horde war that started in wtlk and only ended now

apparently SoO was not the end of the war, just a ceasefire.

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You are wasting your time on @Syegfryed. This is not the first thread nor the first time someone has just given up on him either not understanding or just being plainly biased.

Yeah sure, im biased, if i recall you well, you are in the other thread literally arguing with things that no one had brought up, thinking just because we were pointing other races mistakes, we are, automatically, trying to excuse the orcs and remove all the blame from then

nice way to play the pigeon chess

As for the rape thing. Draenei weren't even the last. Remember what the zuluhead and nekros did to alexzstraza and the red dragons?

right, so can we just use individual and group actions to blame the entire race? the finest example of the Biased Generalizing fallacy?

again, just so you can't use your tactic, no, im not excusing then or trying to remove the orc blame, like i said many times, but saying all the orcs are rapists murderors or that is a just normal behavior from then, or just genetic, is asinine, the draeneis by example, is stated that only the bladewind clan did that with then taking slaves, who by now are all extinct, nonsense in wanting compensation from/blaming the entire orchish race by that.

if we are going any further, rape can be found in any society, more primitive, yeah, we get it, it happened, but he is trying to use as a tool to make the orcs look worse with the appeal to pity, they did shit, they fucked themselves and paid for it, its over, This was supposed to be a "horde reparation from the fourth war/bfa" but people are arguing with shit that happened almost 40 years ago.

[cparle87]

Nah. I'll just stick to my explanation how your comparison is faulty.


So you're saying all the orcs should've been killed on sight? You do know there is a big difference between killing ONE individual, and killing every single member of a race/group, right?


There was still the intent to kill. The orcs are about war and conquest. Even without the demon curse.


Except the blood curse didn't make them go into "such blind rage". It just increased their natural bloodlust. Where did you even get this idea that the orcs would turn on one another?


Shows how little you understand your own comparison, though. You said "Anduin does bad, all of Stormwind is to blame", which is just part of what you got wrong in your comparison, since, again, the orcs in the Horde are the orcs that came through the portal.

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"It is only a taunt if it's true".

So you're saying it's true that Varian whimpered and begged for his life at the Broken Shore? Because Gul'dan taunted the members of the Alliance with those words when they came to face him atop the nightwell.


"The Bleeding Hollow found truth in the surety of their deaths. Upon ascension to ruler of the clan, each Bleeding Hollow chieftain undertook a shamanic vision quest in which they sacrificed their own eye to receive a vision of their own death, but sometimes the vision would show much more. This practice allowed the chieftains to live their life without fear, for they knew the exact day of their demise."

If you don't understand how uncontrollable bloodlust that makes you turn on your own people is mind control I don't know what to tell you. "They weren't mind controlled to kill people, they were just magically enraged so they had to kill people." Distinction without a difference. It's like being accused of lying and going "No, I didn't lie, I just didn't tell the truth."

No, I was using Vael as an prominent example of when people are forced by magical bloodlust to act as they normally wouldn't and why this is bad.

So if you're told by a reliable source that an armed to the teeth marine you stand no chance against is going to gun down you and your entire family tomorrow and the only way you can save anyone is to pick up this clearly magic sword you wouldn't do it because... reasons? And before you try to disregard my analogy, remember in Chronicles version 2 the orcs were on the sidelines watching as the draenei used their advanced tech to blow the ogre capitol of Goria to rubble and there was nothing the ogres could do, said ogres being an enemy the orcs themselves were helpless against. And now they're told that same power is being aimed at their people. Cause that's what happened with the orcs. The Legion made them believe they were facing imminent extinction and powering up using this magic blood was the only way to save their people. Everything that happened after that was completely out of their control.

In one of the books covering events prior to the opening of the Dark Portal but after the draenei genocide, Gul'dan and his Shadow Council minions are having trouble keeping the orc clans in line. The bloodlust is so strong it's causing them to turn on one another in the absence of an external enemy to fight. He remedies this partway by appointing Blackhand as his puppet warchief and sending in ogres to bully the clans into submission. And even then he was worried he was days from losing control of the Horde when the portal Medivh promised him finally opened.

Garona, who was mind controlled above and beyond anyone else, was directly ordered by Gul'dan to kill King Llane Wrynn, something she did not want to do, would not have done otherwise, and regrets having to do. So I used the argument that if someone mind controlled Anduin and made him kill Tyrande that you'd say the night elves are justified in blaming Stormwind for it, even decades later. Cause that's what Shaw, one of the most well informed in universe characters, does in the rescue Baine scenario. He flat out blames the current Horde, Thrall and Thalyssra included, for what Gul'dan made Garona do.

[Sluvs]

Nah. I'll just stick to my explanation how your comparison is faulty.


So you're saying all the orcs should've been killed on sight? You do know there is a big difference between killing ONE individual, and killing every single member of a race/group, right?


There was still the intent to kill. The orcs are about war and conquest. Even without the demon curse.


Except the blood curse didn't make them go into "such blind rage". It just increased their natural bloodlust. Where did you even get this idea that the orcs would turn on one another?


Shows how little you understand your own comparison, though. You said "Anduin does bad, all of Stormwind is to blame", which is just part of what you got wrong in your comparison, since, again, the orcs in the Horde are the orcs that came through the portal.

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"It is only a taunt if it's true".

So you're saying it's true that Varian whimpered and begged for his life at the Broken Shore? Because Gul'dan taunted the members of the Alliance with those words when they came to face him atop the nightwell.


"The Bleeding Hollow found truth in the surety of their deaths. Upon ascension to ruler of the clan, each Bleeding Hollow chieftain undertook a shamanic vision quest in which they sacrificed their own eye to receive a vision of their own death, but sometimes the vision would show much more. This practice allowed the chieftains to live their life without fear, for they knew the exact day of their demise."

I mean, one thing we know it to be untrue.

But the other we have plenty of evidence in game that corroborates. We beat them at every turn, we killed almost all their leaders and beat their troops back. Ner'zhul? Dead. Kargath? Ded. Blackhand? Super dead. Thunderlord? Also dead. I mean, every meaningful battle that they had with the Alliance and Horde they lost. They lost control over 5 zones out of 7.

Man... WoD had so much potential, I made myself slightly sad.

[Ielenia]

If you don't understand how uncontrollable bloodlust that makes you turn on your own people is mind control I don't know what to tell you. "They weren't mind controlled to kill people, they were just magically enraged so they had to kill people." Distinction without a difference. It's like being accused of lying and going "No, I didn't lie, I just didn't tell the truth."

Except, once again, you're making a faulty comparison. The blood curse was not a "mind control", and did not send the orcs into a "blind rage". The curse was never depicted as such in any of the games or, to my knowledge, any of the books.

No, I was using Vael as an prominent example of when people are forced by magical bloodlust to act as they normally wouldn't and why this is bad.

Except that is not the case of the orcs, is it? We have been shown that the orcs don't act any different, with or without the blood curse.

Garona, who was mind controlled above and beyond anyone else, was directly ordered by Gul'dan to kill King Llane Wrynn, something she did not want to do, would not have done otherwise, and regrets having to do. So I used the argument that if someone mind controlled Anduin and made him kill Tyrande that you'd say the night elves are justified in blaming Stormwind for it, even decades later. Cause that's what Shaw, one of the most well informed in universe characters, does in the rescue Baine scenario. He flat out blames the current Horde, Thrall and Thalyssra included, for what Gul'dan made Garona do.

Except... he doesn't. The moment you're speaking about in the "Rescue Baine" scenario was talking about the fight against Garrosh, not Garrona killing Llane Wrynn:
Shaw: "Not the first time we had to move against a corrupt warchief."
Saurfang: "Or a sovereign king. Slain in his own home."
Shaw: "A home that still stands. Can you say the same about Teldrassil?"

Once again: faulty comparison. Because the orcs are not being blamed by Garona's actions.

[Syegfryed]

Except, once again, you're making a faulty comparison. The blood curse was not a "mind control", and did not send the orcs into a "blind rage". The curse was never depicted as such in any of the games or, to my knowledge, any of the books.

except, they were indeed blood lust driven and they were not thinking straight, they were in blind rage with demon blood forcing in their veins, it is literally stated by Saurfang when he is talking to Garrosh:

High Overlord Saurfang says: I drank of the same blood your father did, Garrosh. Mannoroth's cursed venom pumped through my veins as well.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I drove my weapons into the bodies and minds of my enemies.
High Overlord Saurfang says: And while Grom died a glorious death - freeing us all from the blood curse - he could not wipe away the terrible memory of our past.
High Overlord Saurfang says: His act could not erase the horrors we committed.
High Overlord Saurfang pauses.
High Overlord Saurfang says: The winter after the curse was lifted, hundreds of veteran orcs like me were lost to despair.
High Overlord Saurfang says: Our minds were finally free, yes... Free to relive all of the unthinkable acts that we had performed under the Legion's influence.

once free, with their own minds again, they were able to see what they did, veterans literally died because they could not live with what they have done while in the Legion influence

Saufang even stated that they did not killed just the enemy children:

High Overlord Saurfang says: I am not speaking solely of the children of our enemies...

you think they were thinking straight or they did the same thing in wod? they only did the most terrible acts because they were influenced by the Legion, plain simple

Except that is not the case of the orcs, is it? We have been shown that the orcs don't act any different, with or without the blood curse.

thats completely false since anything done in wod is not nearly as terrible or horrendous that the horde did while influenced by the legion, WoD thing was just "normal" war affair

With the Legion they did not cut their bodies, but their minds, stated by saurfang, they killed even the children and anything in their path, just a comparison, Path of glory was not a thing in WoD, even the dumb gorillas of wod would not want that.

[Talrath]

Horde needs to be dismantled. They are stupid enough to follow not just once but twice a crazy warchief. With garrosh a normal orc wouldn't think that garrosh would be nuts, but come on, sylvanis. She is basically nuts on an extreme level. Even if a normal orc wouldn't know her, the forsaken have a reputation of being crazy nut jobs and she is their queen. That is one hell of a warning.

[Rendark]

Man some of you people take this "faction pride" thing way to far.

[Ielenia]

thats completely false since anything done in wod is not nearly as terrible or horrendous that the horde did while influenced by the legion, WoD thing was just "normal" war affair

Yeah. It's totally "normal war affair" in the Warcraft universe to capture civilians, rip their souls out of their bodies, and use those souls to power a portal into another world.

[cparle87]

Except, once again, you're making a faulty comparison. The blood curse was not a "mind control", and did not send the orcs into a "blind rage". The curse was never depicted as such in any of the games or, to my knowledge, any of the books.


Except that is not the case of the orcs, is it? We have been shown that the orcs don't act any different, with or without the blood curse.


Except... he doesn't. The moment you're speaking about in the "Rescue Baine" scenario was talking about the fight against Garrosh, not Garrona killing Llane Wrynn:
Shaw: "Not the first time we had to move against a corrupt warchief."
Saurfang: "Or a sovereign king. Slain in his own home."
Shaw: "A home that still stands. Can you say the same about Teldrassil?"

Once again: faulty comparison. Because the orcs are not being blamed by Garona's actions.

You really don't see distinction without a difference at all. Whatever, moving on.

I'm not going to has over this with you again, since Syg below me did it pretty well. WoD was pretty much pre-WC1 all over again without the blood drinking. Orcs get fooled by a respectable source, don't forget it was one of their own shaman bringing up visions of what Garrosh was warning them about. That a power they could not beat under normal circumstances was going to annihilate them. The difference was the power to fight back was the True Horde technology, not fel blood. And even then the end result was different. In the MU the orcs fought until they were utterly beaten, the blood curse abated, and they fell apart. In this universe without the blood curse there was those who realized they'd been had and stopped fighting, even siding with us in the end, like Grommash did. Can you see a blood cursed orc at the end of WC2 realizing he was in the wrong and siding with the Alliance? No. Because the blood curse wouldn't allow thinking like that.

The blood curse made the entire race who drank it raging killers. Every other time you think you're using for an argument, there WERE orcs who didn't drink the kool aid so to speak and didn't go warmongering. The frostwolves in both universes, orcs who joined Vol'jin's revolution against Garrosh. You're trying to argue the orcs are the same with or without the curse when they're obviously not, because you're ignoring facts to suit your agenda.

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Yeah. It's totally "normal war affair" in the Warcraft universe to capture civilians, rip their souls out of their bodies, and use those souls to power a portal into another world.

Were we ever told what the AU Dark Portal in Tanaan was powered by? Cause to me it looks like it was powered by Gul'dan, Teron'gor, and Cho'gall. Not civilians souls like you're trying to argue. You keep trying to argue that two different things, with different causes, circumstances, and end results are the same thing, this seems to be a problem with you.

[Ielenia]

WoD was pretty much pre-WC1 all over again without the blood drinking. Orcs get fooled by a respectable source, don't forget it was one of their own shaman bringing up visions of what Garrosh was warning them about.

So you're going to equate that having their aggression and rage magically augmented is in the same ballpark of being tricked?

Were we ever told what the AU Dark Portal in Tanaan was powered by? Cause to me it looks like it was powered by Gul'dan, Teron'gor, and Cho'gall. Not civilians souls like you're trying to argue. You keep trying to argue that two different things, with different causes, circumstances, and end results are the same thing, this seems to be a problem with you.

Um... yes, we were:
"This portal is fueled by powers neither mechanical nor arcane.

Look to either side of us, <name>. The screaming souls of slain prisoners are being channeled into the heart of the portal itself.

And they are channeling these souls through the body of Gul'dan.

Find a way into the chamber beneath us, and do whatever it takes to get Gul'dan to stop his channeling. Our last hope rests on you, <name>."

[schwank05]

Best care scenario is Forsaken break free and join Sylvanas or Break free and become their own Faction then we can have 3 factions Horde, Alliance, and Forsaken. Not the Pussified version for the Forsaken we have today, but rather the plague spreading and ruthless Forsaken Pre CATA.

[Syegfryed]

The blood curse made the entire race who drank it raging killers.

not even just who drank it, there was lots of orcs who didn't, but they got corrupted and in the same state or blood rage, the only ones who escaped that where frostwolves barely, cause they still became green.

Yeah. It's totally "normal war affair" in the Warcraft universe to capture civilians, rip their souls out of their bodies, and use those souls to power a portal into another world.

capturing people and killing then is normal war affair, period, people do that all the time in their wars, using enemy souls every warlock do and the alliance still have then.

using then as energy is bad but not nearly as fucked up as what happened in MU universe

[Soon-TM]

So you think people with severe cognitive disorders are the same as heroine junkies?

The hot takes keep on coming

Not the same, but comparable to the extent that neither holds complete dominion over themselves, so they are therefore less guilty, and at times, even non guilty - even under our current (western) laws.

Even Kael, who did all sorts of wicked !@#$ back in BC, wasn't sent to the Maw, but to Revendreth, implying that he can still be redeemed. Chances are that him being under the effects of some strong Fel cigars has played a part in it... or not. We will see soon enough.

[Syegfryed]

So I guess all those people sitting in jail right now for manslaughter because they hit somebody while driving drunk should feel better since they are ''less guilty'' according to you

Also this tangent is getting out of control, the main point, before we spiraled out of control, was about a bunch of orcs that took demon steroids in order to be better killing machines, but then after they lose going "wait its not our fault we are the victims here cuz the blood made us do it"

The main comparison was people actively taking a drug to commit atrocities is in no way comparable to a person born with down syndrome

you are saying "tangent is getting out of control" then literally proceed to spiral out of control grasping at straws and making false comparisons, while ignoring everything what was being said before to "no they bad"

[Syegfryed]

Like the guy above me said, didn't they power the portal to even enter Azeroth to commit said atrocities

always using the bad words trying to make it worse, you don't need that.

with the souls of thousands of draenei prisoners.

and where is said it is thousands? as far i checked no numbers were given

Ya know, women and children. Murdered. Souls stolen from their lifeless corpses after the fact. A path made from the bones of their thousands of innocent victims.

yeah, lets keep adding bad words to increase the pity, go for the feels and make it look worse(despite no draenei children were in the black portal wandering with the other souls, as far i checked), say did did with babies too, so

add more fancy words too like, traumatizing their minds, ripping their souls to the very bbodies still alive while they laugh with pleasure blablblabla

Yeah you right the orcs are just misunderstood lol

Gimme a break.

except no one said that, you guys should stop going for blatantly strawman like this, since you are already adamant in this subject, there is no reason for you to keep repeating those things

[Ielenia]

capturing people and killing then is normal war affair, period, people do that all the time in their wars, using enemy souls every warlock do and the alliance still have then.

using then as energy is bad but not nearly as fucked up as what happened in MU universe

It's exactly just as bad, because it's exactly what happened in the MU universe: the souls of the draenei were used to power the Dark Portal.

[Verdugo]

It's exactly just as bad, because it's exactly what happened in the MU universe: the souls of the draenei were used to power the Dark Portal.

I thought it was powered by meme energy, what with them being spartan kicked into the pit.

[DatToffer]

Were NE asked for reparations after they broke the world in pieces ?

No, they got rewarded with immortality, immunity to disease, a link to the Emerald Dream and a job as big tree trimmers.

I don't think anyone owes them anything.

Except the writers, they owe them better storylines.