Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[Loveliest]

It's only gonna go when Blizz is gonna implement something instead of it. Not sure what could be implemented, something like commendations in FF15? Probably not, too weak.
No clue how, probably some simple score attached to highest completed. Like 15 in time is 15 points and that's that. And it adds up to a score and people will use that.

[Eosia]

Yet another one of these posts.... they need to die, have the corpse staked through the heart, then chucked into an incinerator. They're getting old and really are only initiated by entitled Karens.



Raider IO is not toxic. Period. Let's get that out of the way. As another poster already said a few pages back, people who complain about it are simply entitled. That is all. They feel entitled to a spot in any group they want when they want. They feel entitled to be carried. They feel entitled to be lesser players without any consequences for that choice. To borrow a line from Tim Gunn, the World of Warcraft owes you... NOTHING.

Gearscore was not toxic either. It was simply an addon that simplified a process that was already happening. Rather than having to inspect you and mousing over your gear, the addon simply created a composite score. Blizzard liked it enough to even make it part of the base UI. Blizzard failed to capture what the addon did because it only looks at item level, not the factors that show you know about your class such as what enchants to get, what gems to use, etc.

People just need to suck it up and actually put forth some effort in this game. You need to learn how to optimize your class/spec. This is not hard to do. There are guides all over the place and addons to help you. Hell, back when reforging was a thing, an addon did the work for you and kept you from having to manually figure out ho to cap your hit/expertise without going over so you could reforge the excess into usable stats.

People also need to learn how to play their characters. Rotations and talents change throughout the course of an expansion. Some specs even get gutted as we saw with Demo lock, Marksman Hunters, BM Hunters, Windwalker Monks, etc. in previous expansions/patches. So what you learned when Patch x.0 goes live might not hold when patch x.1 or x.2 rolls out.

Finally, as much as people whine about how WoW has become a solo player game because of LFD/LFR and such, they really resist finding a guild or friends to group with to do M+ or whatever. Again, they just do not want to put forth the effort it seems.

RaiderIO and GearScore are not nor were they ever toxic. Player laziness is the toxicity.

[Wuusah]

1) Nobody will join a raid with a leader who hasn't killed the boss. Nevermind that raid leading isn't as simple as slapping the tag on yourself. (As many failed N'zoth kills will inform you.)

Sorry but this is utter bullshit. People do join progress groups if they haven't finished their personal progression yet. Those who don't join are those who want a quick carry and it's GOOD that they don't join.

You might have to wait a bit longer because you don't get flooded with players who want a quick carry and immediately leave after a wipe but eventually you'll get a decent enough group to finish the job. That's how I did it. That's how many others did it. And yes, raid leading ain't easy but it's also not so super difficult as you make it seem. You just gotta get out of your comfort zone for once.

It shouldn't be the responsibility of other players to carry the "underperformer" through content. AotC is the most difficult raid content you can do with pugs. It shouldn't be something that people get carried through. It should be something that people earn for themselves or at least have the decency to pay for a carry if they really couldn't be bothered.

[Adam Jensen]

I don't have anything against IO itself.

But for gods sake, if it's less than a 10, don't go checking IO. No one in a 9 or below needs their IO check. Seriously . . .

"LFM Freehold 5, checking IO!" Like really buddy?

[ClassicPeon]

I don't have anything against IO itself.

But for gods sake, if it's less than a 10, don't go checking IO. No one in a 9 or below needs their IO check. Seriously . . .

"LFM Freehold 5, checking IO!" Like really buddy?

Its that or ilvl.

People can fail m+5's you know

[StillMcfuu]

Raider.io isn't really that bad, the problem mainly comes down to the community. Raider.io is a decent enough metric on its own, it rates past performance although the argument could be made its system is flawed in some ways, that isn't the issue.

The issue is most people who are making groups with their little 10 key from the previous week, want to be carried to a 12 key with minimum effort on their part. The system is being misused, creating requirements for groups that are way out of line for the level content. Outside of Blizz implementing the system internally and then not allowing inflated group requirements to be placed in the LFD, the issue will persist.
It's true Blizz could just disable the api for Raider.io, but it isn't really a problem, at least not as much as gear score was.
Maybe if R.io could score account wide it would solve a few issues.

[Adam Jensen]

Its that or ilvl.

People can fail m+5's you know

Yeah no, not nearly enough to make checking IO remotely necessary for M5. If your group is failing a freaking 5, it's not an IO problem, it's a lack of brain cells problem.

[dcc626]

I don't have anything against IO itself.

But for gods sake, if it's less than a 10, don't go checking IO. No one in a 9 or below needs their IO check. Seriously . . .

"LFM Freehold 5, checking IO!" Like really buddy?

so, its a cummunity problem, not a raider.io problem. people tend to forget that.

[Twdft]

Yeah no, not nearly enough to make checking IO remotely necessary for M5. If your group is failing a freaking 5, it's not an IO problem, it's a lack of brain cells problem.

And that brain cell problem gets circumvented if I look at players applying for my +5 Underrot if they done it before. Unbound Abo will be hard enough if not enough ticks get stomped and you will fail Zancha if 2 of your DD don't know what to do when they got an arrow on their head. I have no problem teaching tactics up to +3 but if you start getting into keys with 2 affixes I expect you to have done it before. R.IO is no guarentee, but it helps even in low keys.

[Laqweeta]

People who think r.io is toxic fall into these categories:

1. they are bad, know they are bad and feel entitled to a carry from other players because that's how they always played their MMO previously. Just having fun with the boys in a dungeon group like in the good old times. Except that those boys are random players and the dungeon is on a timer and at a higher difficulty than they are used to.

2. they are bad but think they are good. The "ELO hell" argument. Other people are at fault, the system is at fault. Everyone and everything is at fault for their current situation, except they themselves. If it wasn't for r.io then they would get invited into so many more groups (and deplete their keys)...

3. no matter if they are good or bad, they simply don't understand what r.io is and instead of googling for an explanation they just make assumptions.

This. I'm sorry there are mechanics in dungeons that NEED to be followed. Work your way up to 15s, it's seriously not hard. Completing and timing all dungeons on even an 8 has you at or near 1k io lol

[Mitchypoo]

I hate raider io! I never get into groups because of it! Same happens in arena. I apply to a 2700 group but they never accept me. I think your arena rating should be hidden and they should block raider io

[kappalol]

I've timed keys with seconds to spare so yes it does matter .... It's not about being faster or not, it's about completing SUCCESFULLY the content. But I guess everyone times their keys with 20 minutes to spare a la MDI so it's irrelevant right ?

I mean the time you "waste" on an extra phase on the last boss of SOTS can be the difference between a +1 and a deplete. 2nd of UR, an extra tantrum can mean a wipe if you're out of CDs which can be prevented by MORE DPS. If you can't see that I really don't know what to tell you

if you finish the dungeon with few seconds to spare then you had to make several another mistakes which take you more time than someone not being a meta spec or class.

[Azharok]

I hate raider io! I never get into groups because of it! Same happens in arena. I apply to a 2700 group but they never accept me. I think your arena rating should be hidden and they should block raider io

Nice bait !

- - - Updated - - -

if you finish the dungeon with few seconds to spare then you had to make several another mistakes which take you more time than someone not being a meta spec or class.

Not necessarely. But even then, if you made the same mistakes and had less DPS as per your reasoning you still wouldn't time the key, I fail to see how that validates your point more than mine ?

I mean Echo timed WS29 with 7 seconds to spare, I doubt they made many mistakes... No one here is comparing a 29 to a 15. But even with perfect play you wont time a 15 if you don't meet the DPS checks, which have been made easier with how easily you obtain gear but doesn't make them non-existent.

I mean every one is talking about how DPS isn't required because according to them no-one makes mistakes in M+, no one dies in M+.

That is hardly the case.
On all the runs I've done that were timed I'd say the lowest amount of deaths I've had during the run is 2, and as high a 20 odd something. We had more spare time with 2 deaths than with 20, but 12s are easier to run than 19s and those are much easier than 21s etc.

Besides if you're pushing M+ every run is a challenge to some extent, since they get more difficult the higher you go. If you're 3 chesting 15s yeah sure, play whatever idc, but there's a massive gap between those people and people who struggle to get 15s done for KSM.

[ClassicPeon]

Yeah no, not nearly enough to make checking IO remotely necessary for M5. If your group is failing a freaking 5, it's not an IO problem, it's a lack of brain cells problem.

Ehm. Thats the same reason people fail +10's and + 15's.

[vitor210]

You guyys need to decide. THere's a post here saying Raider.IO needs to be implemented ingame, and then theres this post complaining about it. Come on guys, decide on one or the other

[david0925]

this again.

ok, lets get rid of it. how do i pick my pug then, first 4 people? random?

why shouldnt i have a tool to filter people and need to leave things to chance?

[Naville]

this again.

ok, lets get rid of it. how do i pick my pug then, first 4 people? random?

Inspect ppl and only keep in your group those who have only "Mythic 15" gear equipped.

...

Could have been really like this if raider.io nor armory were available to ease invites. And there would be posts such as "how can I have +15 gear if I never get invited to +15 runs????"

[Toybox]

I think people are misremembering Gearscore - It's a LOT worse than anything Raider.io is doing.

Gearscore had healers rolling on DPS trinkets because it increased their gearscore. Tanks would roll on caster trinkets, casters would roll on agility trinkets, etc... And this was at a time where a lot of people thought increasing their gearscore = increasing their damage, which was simply not the case, especially if you needed on gear unfit for you role.

All raider.io does is give you concise information regarding a persons experience.

They're not even remotely comparable.

[Athulua]

I think people are misremembering Gearscore - It's a LOT worse than anything Raider.io is doing.

Gearscore had healers rolling on DPS trinkets because it increased their gearscore. Tanks would roll on caster trinkets, casters would roll on agility trinkets, etc... And this was at a time where a lot of people thought increasing their gearscore = increasing their damage, which was simply not the case, especially if you needed on gear unfit for you role.

All raider.io does is give you concise information regarding a persons experience.

They're not even remotely comparable.

Idk why R IO gets so much hatred.

It's basically a quicker way to check somebody's armory. It's even more lenient than armory because armory only displays the highest timed key.
If you timed a +6 ages ago when gearing and then ran a +17 out of time recently the armory STILL lists your +6 as the "best" run.
R IO gauges runs by points and that +17 is going to be worth way, WAY more points than +6, even out of time.

Aside from that, it also provides high-end players a competitive environment.
The game itself does not do that. Achievements end at +15, there's nothing to gain beyond this. R IO gives you score. And people are pushing keys for this score, to rank better against others. And to show off this high score in game. If you see a player with 5000 rating you know he's a big D pusher. This is thanks to IO, otherwise all you can see in game is keymaster mount for all 15's. Nothing more.

[Firebert]

this again.

ok, lets get rid of it. how do i pick my pug then, first 4 people? random?

LFD tool.

You have to have a M+ key in order to queue, but M+0 would also be on the LFD tool. You would be grouped with other players either on or one step below your key range. This would be based off the loot that drops out of the M+ chest as below:

*M+2 and 3 (435)
*M+4 (440)
*M+5 and 6 (445)
*M+7 (450)
*M+8, 9, and 10 (455)
*M+11, 12, and 13 (460)
*M+14 and 15 (465)

If a key would be upgraded/depleted, all of the group's keys are upgraded/depleted.

For example, if you had an M+7 key, and joined LFM+, you would be put into one of the following groups:

*Your or another player's M+7 key, with players with M+5 through M+7 keys
*Another player's M+9 key, with players with M+7 through M+10 keys