Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[Palapop]

What I hate MOST about r.io is the fact that it is a 3rd party web site that follows every single character with(out) our will.

[Bozey17]

Really bad idea, go and play a single player game if that is what you want. Mythic+ is group content, just like raiding. If you are having trouble finding groups, join a community, a guild or find friends. It is very quick and easy to get into mythic+ groups if you are semi-serious about it too, I am not in a guild and I play with my brother, we never struggle to get groups and when we were low Raider IO we just made our own groups. Soo many people just can't be bothered with making their own parties, or putting in effort or the scariest thing I find a lot is that quite a few people just don't want social interactions, they don't want to deal with other players... IN AN MMORPG.

1. There is no single player game with the same gameplay, content, and regular updates as WoW.
2. Just because you're in a guild does not guarantee you're going to be able put together a group whenever you feel like
3. You also need to consider varying levels of skill within your guild which will further limit the pool of players
4. Just because its an MMORPG doesn't mean you always need to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with other people. Social interactions is for real life and social media, go on facebook or go to a bar if you want that. For me and many others, a world chat, and the option to play with people is enough.

I get that some people need this game as a replacement for their social lives, but you shouldn't lower the quality of the game just to appease those people. You should have the option to solo stuff with bots, that way people who like to group can do that and the people who don't can go solo, and anything else in-between. .

[ID811717]

What I hate MOST about r.io is the fact that it is a 3rd party web site that follows every single character with(out) our will.

Anyone can use armory and Blizzard API to learn tons of information about your char. I can sit down in my basement for a week and write my own little version of raider.io. The essence of your complaint is about Blizzard making that available to the public, not about raider.io.

As for the raider.io, it actually allows you to disable any information about your char from appearing in addon and on website.

[gaaara]

What I hate MOST about r.io is the fact that it is a 3rd party web site that follows every single character with(out) our will.

Erm that's on blizzard. basically its reading your wowarmory information...if you have an issue with that, take it with blizzard.

Not sure why people hate raider.io, it's basically an experience bar. If i put a key up 20's 25's/etc, IO tells me xyz players experience, so i can decide to build a strong team.

It is amazing how many people sign up to high keys with little to no experience....all IO highlights is..how much effort have you put in, do you know the dungeon. It's not just about YOU, its about 4 other people's time/commitment that will be wasted. Most of which i end up adding to my friends list and we then do our keys as a group....

The only people that would hate this...is people that just want to hop in for a free ride.

[Wuusah]

1. There is no single player game with the same gameplay, content, and regular updates as WoW.
2. Just because you're in a guild does not guarantee you're going to be able put together a group whenever you feel like
3. You also need to consider varying levels of skill within your guild which will further limit the pool of players
4. Just because its an MMORPG doesn't mean you always need to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with other people. Social interactions is for real life and social media, go on facebook or go to a bar if you want that. For me and many others, a world chat, and the option to play with people is enough.

I get that some people need this game as a replacement for their social lives, but you shouldn't lower the quality of the game just to appease those people. You should have the option to solo stuff with bots, that way people who like to group can do that and the people who don't can go solo, and anything else in-between. .

Play FF14. They let you play their (newest) dungeons with bots. I tried it. It's a miserable experience where I started asking myself wtf I'm doing with my life playing an MMO with bots. But maybe you'll like it.

The thing is, FF14 is highly scripted, so it's easy to make a bot there. Bosses always do the same aoe abilities with the openings always on specific places, so you could easily make a bot that just runs to safe zones and never fails. WoW is not scripted like that. Making a bot here would be significantly more work. On top of that, FF14 dungeons are super easy. There is no M+ in that game. Those dungeons are designed to just rush through. It simply wouldn't work in WoW and Blizzard really should not waste their manpower on such a feature.

MMORPGs are a social thing. Saying "go to facebook if you want social interactions" is absurd. MMOs without social interactions are a miserable experience

[Very rare pepe]

1. There is no single player game with the same gameplay, content, and regular updates as WoW.
2. Just because you're in a guild does not guarantee you're going to be able put together a group whenever you feel like
3. You also need to consider varying levels of skill within your guild which will further limit the pool of players
4. Just because its an MMORPG doesn't mean you always need to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with other people. Social interactions is for real life and social media, go on facebook or go to a bar if you want that. For me and many others, a world chat, and the option to play with people is enough.

I get that some people need this game as a replacement for their social lives, but you shouldn't lower the quality of the game just to appease those people. You should have the option to solo stuff with bots, that way people who like to group can do that and the people who don't can go solo, and anything else in-between. .

Sounds like you don't enjoy MMORPG's. I am genuinely dumbfounded by your post. It's a good thing your opinion of what the game should be is a very small minority of people. Honestly, go look at single player games buddy, if you don't want to mix it up with other players, get off MMORPG's. You are making the game worse.

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MMORPGs are a social thing. Saying "go to facebook if you want social interactions" is absurd. MMOs without social interactions are a miserable experience

He wants a miserable experience by the sounds of it. Probably a very anti social person who fears at the prospect of having to sign up to a mythic + group.

[razorpax]

get a guild or join a community

those are literally the only options because raider io wont be dropped

[Drench]

Raider io is the only reason M+ is fun to me.

[Underverse]

Agreed. Loads of players like him in the game who would blame the world before looking at themselves. People like him is why things like raider.io needs to exist. If someone has put in the effort and I can track that with a number, that is great, the only people who oppose that logic are those who don't believe they need to put in the effort to get the rewards(whether that is loot or playing with a decent group).

Bullshit answer that I see parroted a lot here. There are a lot of reasons why a player wouldn't have a high raider io score that have nothing to do with player skill. Here's just a few:

- The player took a break during a mid-expansion patch
- The player is a gladiator pvper and just does some m+ on the side for fun/minor upgrades
- The player is on an alt/alt acct
- The player is a weekend warrior who doesn't do much m+but excels when they do

That said, the above arguments will always lose and those players mentioned above will always be disadvantaged because players are desperate (perhaps rightly so) to make their m+ experience as streamlined as possible, and there is value and tangible incentive to ranking candidates. So, acceptable losses; and the answer may not be to abolish raider io, but instead to make it more comprehensive so special cases like those above are more likely to be included instead of just selecting those people who run m+ all day every day.

[Wavebossa]

Nah, RaiderIO is great.

If someone says 11/12m lead and I look at their io and i see that they are 3/12m, I know that they are full of shit.

When I join a group with 11/12m vs 3/12m, the difference is night and day.
RaiderIO saves me from playing with people who are still progressing on content that I have already cleared.


I want to play with people around my skill level. And that's not elitist... i think if you are 3/12m you should play with 3/12m people as well so you dont get judged poorly.

[Very rare pepe]

- The player took a break during a mid-expansion patch
- The player is a gladiator pvper and just does some m+ on the side for fun/minor upgrades
- The player is on an alt/alt acct
- The player is a weekend warrior who doesn't do much m+but excels when they do

All of the above can be solved by putting in less than 10 hours over the course of a season by doing each dungeon on 15 or higher. Alts also show your mains score if you use the website.

'just selecting those people who run m+ all day every day.' Pure hyperbole, doing 10 15 keys in a season takes 10 hours. That isn't a lot of time over the course of what? 3-5 months? or w.e a season is.

If people feel they have to work up, doing each dungeon at 5's-10s first, and then doing 11-15 after, I suggest making friends and joining a guild.

[Krimzin]

What I hate MOST about r.io is the fact that it is a 3rd party web site that follows every single character with(out) our will.

Its not without your will. You acknowledged that you gave approval for Blizzard to share your character info. Its in the ToS. They are sharing it on the blizzard website and Raider.io is just pulling information off of it.

[Wuusah]

Bullshit answer that I see parroted a lot here. There are a lot of reasons why a player wouldn't have a high raider io score that have nothing to do with player skill. Here's just a few:

- The player took a break during a mid-expansion patch
- The player is a gladiator pvper and just does some m+ on the side for fun/minor upgrades
- The player is on an alt/alt acct
- The player is a weekend warrior who doesn't do much m+but excels when they do

That said, the above arguments will always lose and those players mentioned above will always be disadvantaged because players are desperate (perhaps rightly so) to make their m+ experience as streamlined as possible, and there is value and tangible incentive to ranking candidates. So, acceptable losses; and the answer may not be to abolish raider io, but instead to make it more comprehensive so special cases like those above are more likely to be included instead of just selecting those people who run m+ all day every day.

1. Player took a break:
If the player took a break, then they don't have the routine someone else has who kept playing and kept doing high keys. I can see this with FF14 right now. I came back to that game for a month after a ~6 month break. I'm not on the same level as I was back in the days anymore. I somewhat remember bosses and their abilities, but I'm not playing my rotation flawlessly. You don't have the same high level of skill if you take a long break. That the case with everything. If I do woodcarving and then stop doing woodcarving for a year, I won't be able to just pick it up exactly where I stopped. I'll get worse and have to relearn stuff.

2. Player is a PvP player and does M+ on the side:
A great PvP player will still fail a dungeon if they don't know the mechanics in that dungeon. You can be the best player in the world with the best mechanical skill like a god gamer. If you don't know boss mechanics, you'll make mistakes. Experience is what is needed in dungeons, just as much if not more than "skill".

3. Player is on an alt:
You can link mains and alts in rio. This argument shows that you don't know what you are talking about.

4. Player doesn't play much:
You don't have to play much. Your score doesn't get better if you repeat the same dungeon over and over again. You need to do every dungeon on +15 ONCE and you are 2k rio for the rest of the season. Every weekend warrior should be able to do that if they're good. And rio even shows your score from previous seasons if your score right now is bad.

In general you seem to misunderstand something here. Being a good player does not make you a good M+ player. You could be the best raider in the world and that doesn't make you a good PvP player. Experience is the most important thing everwhere. You don't become a speedrunner by just being good. You become a speedrunner by repeating the same game over and over and over and over and over again until you know each part of the game in and out. That's how you become a good M+ player. That's how you become a good PvP player. That's how you become a good raider. You play so much and analyze everything that is important to becoming better in that part of the game. You don't deserve a high rio rating just because you understand your spec and know how to play it.

[Firebert]

1. There is no single player game with the same gameplay, content, and regular updates as WoW.[...]

Agree with the vast majority of the post; would accept bot-supported content like Comp Stomp if extending the queued content to all forms of content fails again due to community driven issues.

[munkeyinorbit]

What's worse about the current 'system' in RIO then the older systems for pugging?

Before RIO we had gear score and linking the achievement, which famously regularly had groups asking for people with a higher score than what the content dropped and the achievement for clearing it. Meaning they had no reason to be in the content in the first place.

Before gearscore we had the raid/group leader eyeballing your gear and subjectively deciding on the best candidate based on what they thought was good?

I mean neither option is more ideal then RIO.

Thats not the argument. It's that people will abuse any system and that Rio is not better than gearscore. As someone who doesn't use it and who rarely runs mythic plus it doesn't affect me so I wouldn't be able to say if this is true.

[Mosotti]

People who think r.io is toxic fall into these categories:

1. they are bad, know they are bad and feel entitled to a carry from other players because that's how they always played their MMO previously. Just having fun with the boys in a dungeon group like in the good old times. Except that those boys are random players and the dungeon is on a timer and at a higher difficulty than they are used to.

2. they are bad but think they are good. The "ELO hell" argument. Other people are at fault, the system is at fault. Everyone and everything is at fault for their current situation, except they themselves. If it wasn't for r.io then they would get invited into so many more groups (and deplete their keys)...

3. no matter if they are good or bad, they simply don't understand what r.io is and instead of googling for an explanation they just make assumptions.

Funny thing is that the same was being said about GearScore 10 years ago lol

[munkeyinorbit]

Raider.io isn't really the problem. Problems like these actually lie in the M+ system as a whole. Its current design leads to a lot of wasted time bringing in the wrong person. If bringing the wrong person didn't lead to wasted time up to the point where key was killed, or releveling key to the point where it was before, you'd have a little more tolerance and leniency from the community. So really, it comes down to Blizz to figure something out to mitigate that. So again, Raider.io is NOT the problem. M+ time wasting punishment systems are.

That's not true at all. People don't want their time wasted. People don't want to wipe in pug content. If there were no punishment for not completing on time there would still be barriers to entry just as high as they are now. There isn't really anything wrong with a player rating system. It's the players themselves that make it toxic. I would prefer all rating systems to be in game only so it would be easier for group leaders to make a group. But if you don't like Rio then don't use it. Make your own groups and then invite people to the group on the rating that you prefer. Might I suggest only inviting people who have flying mounts? That gets all sorts of people angry.

[Wuusah]

Funny thing is that the same was being said about GearScore 10 years ago lol

Gearscore looked at gear, not at performance. They are two completely different systems.

[munkeyinorbit]

I think people are misremembering Gearscore - It's a LOT worse than anything Raider.io is doing.

Gearscore had healers rolling on DPS trinkets because it increased their gearscore. Tanks would roll on caster trinkets, casters would roll on agility trinkets, etc... And this was at a time where a lot of people thought increasing their gearscore = increasing their damage, which was simply not the case, especially if you needed on gear unfit for you role.

All raider.io does is give you concise information regarding a persons experience.

They're not even remotely comparable.

WRONG. You just described the reason why Rio is the same as gearscore. People are the problem. With gearscore people tried to gimp the system by getting any gear they can to boost the score. With Rio people do anything they can to boost the score. Rio doesn't measure gear so the emphasis is on the run itself. If it's not going to time then people leave. Then the key is depleted. This is a worse result than healers rolling on dps trinkets. Using your argument gearscore is actually better because people will stick around longer because they could still benefit from a better score at the end.

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Comparing gearscore to raider.io is extremely stupid. It just shows that the OP has no idea what he is talking about and is probably just mad that he cannot trick his way into groups to get boosted.

TBH if you don't understand the argument you shouldn't come on in and start attacking others. Please actually read the thread and try again.

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What, exactly, is your idea of trust? Because actively making the game worse by removing the basic ability to form your own fucking group and adding M+ to a fucking matchmaking queue is such a brazen and insultingly terrible approach that it's actually hard to believe you're serious.

Could you describe one pve match making system that has stopped you from forming your own group.

[Anchorite]

Gearscore was terrible for the community for multiple reasons back in Wrath. Specifically, it made a divide in the player base that was unnecessary and promoted elitism.

We are witnessing Gearscore 2.0 with Raider.IO. While yes, it is helpful to have so you choose people who have the relative experience to what you key you are looking to push, it also diminishes the value of the player experience as a whole. We tend to choose players who have higher IO's than others, we choose players who are playing "meta" specs over others who may have a higher IO, but they are playing a Shadow priest. So, they are not chosen for the DPS spot.

We as a community have failed one another once again. I hope that Blizzard will step in at some point and remove Raider IO as a whole just as they did with Gearscore. Or, Blizzard will incorporate their own version of this addon into the game itself.

If I can't see the experience levels of the person putting the group together I'm not joining, I'll only run with guildies. Does that seem like a good trade?