Did Tyrande and Thalyssra know each other? Does Suramar remember her and Malfurion?

[Eapoe]

I love that meme of Nathanos sending Tyrande a thank you card for sending him to Sylvanas.

Also, so where's Tyrande? We rescued Baine and we are probably going to rescue Thrall, Anduin, and Jaina sometime soon, but what about Tyrande? Is she going to be a raid boss in 9.2?

Have you not progressed in the story very far this week? Maybe it’s Night Fae only, but I figured they have the stories tied together somehow.

[Maleific]

The players of the alliance from the first day wanted to exchange nightborne for playable blood elves in the alliance. it was an exchange clearly in favor of the alliance the void elves are the most played allied race and the alliance has the model of the most played horde race

I'm still waiting on actual Nightborne on Horde. Alliance now have our most popular race (with better hair) and we have... bug-eyed, half-assed emaciated Night Elves with next to no customisation and shitty racials.

[Rhlor]

I'm still waiting on actual Nightborne on Horde. Alliance now have our most popular race (with better hair) and we have... bug-eyed, half-assed emaciated Night Elves with next to no customisation and shitty racials.

that too! the alliance has the best version of the exchange. and the horde a poor version of the nightborne! now the void elves are the allied race with more and better customizations and the nightborne are one of the races with less customization

[Vaedan]

While I agree that the Horde did get the better set of allied races, they definitely were not given them PURELY due to bias.

It's because Alliance had been crying out for the Blood Elf model for ages so they could play High Elves, and Blizzard found a way to give the Alliance the Blood Elf model without rewriting some half-assed High Elf fanfiction AND without going back on their previous lore that had killed off most significant settlements of High Elves already - But in return, they needed to give the Horde something from the Alliance. This is called an equivalent exchange, not bias - And in fact, is more Alliance bias, since it's at least attempting (even if not directly so) to listen to the Alliance players who wanted a change.

Nobody on the Horde asked to be given the Night Elf model. (Especially after WoD's updates made the male Nelf model hideous.) But if the Alliance were getting the Horde's elves, of course the Horde has to be given the Alliance elves. (Not to mention, two playable sets of Night Elves for one faction seems... Pretty crappy. It already is crappy with Mag'har Orcs which could easily have been customizations for regular Orcs, and Lightforged Draenei are the BIGGEST problem of them all. They basically aren't even different from Draenei.)

Agreed. We asked for vrykul and we got their extra fat sea-faring variant in form of kul tiran. I'd also be way more happy with Broken/Krokun allied race and now with SL lightforged customizations for regular draenei.

I will not even mention that cringe called mechagnomes vs completely unique vulpera, which feels more like core race then an allied race.

that too! the alliance has the best version of the exchange. and the horde a poor version of the nightborne! now the void elves are the allied race with more and better customizations and the nightborne are one of the races with less customization

Nightborne are definitely in need of major rework. I hope they get serious attention while allied race get their turn with new options.

[Jastall]

Considering how he loses it as soon as I kill one of his named in the Maw, I wonder what he feel about Tyrande fucking up his armies in Thorgast.

Tyrande's probably powerful enough to give wedgies to any Mawsworn foolish enough to try assassinating or lifting her up in the sky.

Besides, even the PC can waltz into Torghast and the Jailer doesn't actually seem to mind that much. Certainly less than when we kill his minions in the Maw itself. Maybe because the tower is so impossibly huge he can't keep track of everything that goes on there.

[Rhlor]

Agreed. We asked for vrykul and we got their extra fat sea-faring variant in form of kul tiran. I'd also be way more happy with Broken/Krokun allied race and now with SL lightforged customizations for regular draenei.

I will not even mention that cringe called mechagnomes vs completely unique vulpera, which feels more like core race then an allied race.



Nightborne are definitely in need of major rework. I hope they get serious attention while allied race get their turn with new options.

Above all this matter I just wanted to point out that those who say that there was horde bias is totally false and this exchange was always in favor of the alliance, the horde never asked for nightborne and they gave us the worst version of nightborne. the alliance was the most favored and even now the alliance had more customizations for void elves and the nightborne were at the bottom of the races with less customization. the alliance won in the exchange not the horde.
Hopefully and blizzard improves the nightborne but I wouldn't be surprised if some alliance player complains saying it's horde bias! when also the night elves are the ones with the best customizations of the main races.

[Beloren]

It was more likely that Tyrande knew of Thalyssra, but not the other way round.

Thalyssra was still Suramar's First Arcanist, during the Kaldorei Empire. Tyrande was only a novice Priestess before the War broke out and it was only after the war began, did Dejahna name Tyrande as her successor.

No, I don't think so. I have very good reason to believe Thalyssra would be very much aware of Tyrande.

Tyrande is the one that tried to convince Elisande and the rest of Kaldorei resistance who had chosen to stay in the city to join the resistance armies with the power of the new Nightwell..which she declined

By this point she was High Priestess, she would have been well known. Now the WotA trilogy doesn't cover this detail, but the request to join the priesthood on attacking Zin'Azshari is recorded in chronicles as is Elisande's refusal.


The priesthood marching to the warfront would not be a secret, Suramar is the headquarters of the order of Elune, and they have extensive influence over the empire, it would be greatest in Suramar, they would know the priesthood was leaving for battle, and who it's new leader would be.It is likely a time of great crisis, even of faith. with the previous high priestess slaughtered, one can only imagine some citizens would be unsure who to put their confidence. In steps a young Tyrande, with the very air of Elune around her, should would have been a compelling figure, memorable - a novice becoming High Priestess. Who wouldn't know, especially in those troubling times. Azshara certainly knew, and she was all the way in Zin'Azshari, all of surviving Suramar would know.

Dejhanna dies in the attack that Elisande's efforts ultimately foils ( we only discover in what way in the ToS raid) - I can tell this by correlating the accounts. Tyrande is promoted afterwards. The saved city will all know this and be aware of the high priestesses call to action, remember no one was forced to join the Kaldorei resistance, but many did, we just know that Elisande chose not to after her amazing victory, believing that it was hopeless endeavour.
@DemonHunter18 - so Thalyssra would be aware of Tyrande, it's unlikely Suramar is not aware of the last High Priestess of the Order of Elune, they were venerating the city folk who died defending them by going out to war. Remember for 10k years the Nightborne believed everyone outside the shield had died. The ancient order and the soldiers of the resistance would be venerated heroes to them - this is shy some of the alliance folk find it really hard to accept why the Nightborne have gone horde - but what they fail to understand, is that whether these things are likely or not is really irrelevant, blizzard can choose to make whoever they want go wherever they want, even if they have to write new lore or change them a bit.. and this is exactly what they do.

Tyrande easily knows of Thalyssra's order, and elves don't forget, it is likely Thalyssra, probably then an understudy or junior met the high priestess at least in the exchange. It is also quite possible they know each other or were acquainted with or aware of each other.

We don't know enough about kaldorei society.. super intelligent arcane enhanced elves would likely have a few little details that could remarkable change how we understand civilised society. It's likely everyone knew everyone or knew of everyone, if not necessarily knowing them personally or having business with them.

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Above all this matter I just wanted to point out that those who say that there was horde bias is totally false and this exchange was always in favor of the alliance, the horde never asked for nightborne and they gave us the worst version of nightborne. the alliance was the most favored and even now the alliance had more customizations for void elves and the nightborne were at the bottom of the races with less customization. the alliance won in the exchange not the horde.
Hopefully and blizzard improves the nightborne but I wouldn't be surprised if some alliance player complains saying it's horde bias! when also the night elves are the ones with the best customizations of the main races.

I fear blizzard might already be shifting elf development to the alliance, they've been getting the better deal progressively since BFA's 8.1, and the new model cusotmisations show it too. At least as far as the elves are concerned. Ofc alliance will argue that blood elves already had tons more customisation initially. Yes, that's true, I'm not begruding the alliance improvements, just observing that the elves are being favoured more on their side. They are getting better roles, better stories, better changes, and better victories. Their involvements are stronger.

Void elves >>>> Nightborne involvement.
Night elves story focus is much stronger than Blood elves too recently
Void elf & Night elf customisations were a lot more than blood elf and nightborne ones

It's a trend that is continuing as far as I can see. I wonder how far blizzard will take it.

[GreenJesus]

Have you not progressed in the story very far this week? Maybe it’s Night Fae only, but I figured they have the stories tied together somehow.

None of the other covenants know what she's doing. I'm at renown 6.

[Rhlor]

No, I don't think so. I have very good reason to believe Thalyssra would be very much aware of Tyrande.

Tyrande is the one that tried to convince Elisande and the rest of Kaldorei resistance who had chosen to stay in the city to join the resistance armies with the power of the new Nightwell..which she declined

By this point she was High Priestess, she would have been well known. Now the WotA trilogy doesn't cover this detail, but the request to join the priesthood on attacking Zin'Azshari is recorded in chronicles as is Elisande's refusal.


The priesthood marching to the warfront would not be a secret, Suramar is the headquarters of the order of Elune, and they have extensive influence over the empire, it would be greatest in Suramar, they would know the priesthood was leaving for battle, and who it's new leader would be.

Dejhanna dies in the attack that Elisande's efforts ultimately foils ( we only discover in what way in the ToS raid) - I can tell this by correlating the accounts. Tyrande is promoted afterwards. The saved city will all know this and be aware of the high priestesses call to action, remember no one was forced to join the Kaldorei resistance, but many did, we just know that Elisande chose not to after her amazing victory, believing that it was hopeless endeavour.
@DemonHunter18 - so Thalyssra would be aware of Tyrande, it's unlikely Suramar is not aware of the last High Priestess of the Order of Elune, they were venerating the city folk who died defending them by going out to war. Remember for 10k years the Nightborne believed everyone outside the shield had died. The ancient order and the soldiers of the resistance would be venerated heroes to them - this is shy some of the alliance folk find it really hard to accept why the Nightborne have gone horde - but what they fail to understand, is that whether these things are likely or not is really irrelevant, blizzard can choose to make whoever they want go wherever they want, even if they have to write new lore or change them a bit.. and this is exactly what they do.

Tyrande easily knows of Thalyssra's order, and elves don't forget, it is likely Thalyssra, probably then an understudy or junior met the high priestess at least in the exchange. It is also quite possible they know each other or were acquainted with or aware of each other.

We don't know enough about kaldorei society.. super intelligent arcane enhanced elves would likely have a few little details that could remarkable change how we understand civilised society. It's likely everyone knew everyone or knew of everyone, if not necessarily knowing them personally or having business with them.

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I fear blizzard might already be shifting elf development to the alliance, they've been getting the better deal progressively since BFA's 8.1, and the new model cusotmisations show it too. At least as far as the elves are concerned. Ofc alliance will argue that blood elves already had tons more customisation initially. Yes, that's true, I'm not begruding the alliance improvements, just observing that the elves are being favoured more on their side. They are getting better roles, better stories, better changes, and better victories. Their involvements are stronger.

Void elves >>>> Nightborne involvement.
Night elves story focus is much stronger than Blood elves too recently
Void elf & Night elf customisations were a lot more than blood elf and nightborne ones

It's a trend that is continuing as far as I can see. I wonder how far blizzard will take it.

It does not bother me that the alliance has good things, I am glad that the void elves have more personalization and that the night elves too.

but someone after all we see in the game come to say that this was a horde bias on the part of blizzard clearly lying! They have the most played allied race that uses the model of the most played race of the horde and that has the best customizations of the allied races unlike the other allied races got a lot of customization at the beginning of the expansion.

blizzard is favoring the alliance, and I don't think bad what bothers me are those who say crazy and absurd things as if those who were favored were the horde.

[Beloren]

It does not bother me that the alliance has good things, I am glad that the void elves have more personalization and that the night elves too.

but someone after all we see in the game come to say that this was a horde bias on the part of blizzard clearly lying! They have the most played allied race that uses the model of the most played race of the horde and that has the best customizations of the allied races unlike the other allied races got a lot of customization at the beginning of the expansion.

blizzard is favoring the alliance, and I don't think bad what bothers me are those who say crazy and absurd things as if those who were favored were the horde.

I think it's more a case that blizzard favours Thalassian elves - they get more stuff done ot them than anyone, but night elves have been getting a lot of attention recently, so who knows.

i think people are so focused on being butt hurt at the stuff the horde has gotten over the years, they're just stuck in that mindset and can't see that it's actually changing before their eyes. And it started with Legion. Granted Nightborne going horde was trend buck, but then void elves went alliance so was it really horde favouritism?

Sure some people expected both to be alliance, maybe that's not unreasonable since the elves are an alliance centred race, but i think they are over expectant to think blizz would just lump so much to the alliance all at once.

It is a bit worrying for horde elfdom. People are really appreciating them doing the trolls and Zandalari so well, it's sparked a lot of positive comments for the traditional horde races and horde elf hate has risen sharply in particular amongst the horde as elf fatigue grows. But it's been lapped up by the alliance and i fear is skewing things. How long before they give the night elves a masterpiece like Zin'Azshari, or build something incredible for the void elves? Or worse surrender Silvermoon and Suramar to the alliance in favour of cities like Zul'drak and Farak on the horde - my worry is blizzard would see this and actually agree.

i have no arguments against what the earlier posters have said, only that I would hope the horde elves don't lose their kingdoms but instead they just build nice ones for the alliance (even if it's nicer than what we have), and treat their elves well so this bickering and fighting stops between the elf fans. The fighting should be between humans and orcs mainly. Elves should be the intelligent race able to look beyond hatreds and try to forge peace based on rational thinking, cooler and wiser heads.

That's just my opinion.

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Agreed. We asked for vrykul and we got their extra fat sea-faring variant in form of kul tiran. I'd also be way more happy with Broken/Krokun allied race and now with SL lightforged customizations for regular draenei.

I will not even mention that cringe called mechagnomes vs completely unique vulpera, which feels more like core race then an allied race.



Nightborne are definitely in need of major rework. I hope they get serious attention while allied race get their turn with new options.

That's not a bad thing. Look at the positives.

1. Kul'tiran are actually manageable, vrykul are too big, and kul'tiran was one of hte founding nations of hte human alliance there's lore there

2. Lightforged was something new, tbh, Broken are sub-par - granted they oculd have been a little bit more interesting, i'd have bene happy for the horde to get Lightforged instead of Nightborne. (but I do like having Suramar

3. Mechagnomes are a great gnome addition they come with a new gnome city finally for the gnomes, Trolls got some in BFA, only fitting gnomes did too. Besides, there is plenty of time for alliance to get new unique model allied race, wouldn't be surprised if alliance got the Naz'dorei or naga elf allied race, while horde got lightforged forsaken or someething boring like that. Then everyone would be howling at unfair alliance treatment - just wait your turn. Look for the silver lining,, it's there, add a little patiene and you'll be much happier.. no need to cry unfair at everything.

Nightborne and night elves need a major rework - tbh, Zandalari is the night elf male model done well, they just need to fix the faces of the males, for the Nightborne and Night elves.

[Vaedan]

Above all this matter I just wanted to point out that those who say that there was horde bias is totally false and this exchange was always in favor of the alliance, the horde never asked for nightborne and they gave us the worst version of nightborne. the alliance was the most favored and even now the alliance had more customizations for void elves and the nightborne were at the bottom of the races with less customization. the alliance won in the exchange not the horde.
Hopefully and blizzard improves the nightborne but I wouldn't be surprised if some alliance player complains saying it's horde bias! when also the night elves are the ones with the best customizations of the main races.

If we are talking only about void elf - nightborne couple, then yes, Alliance got way better in the end, at least when it comes to character model and customizations. Nightborne comes with way better background and introduction, but they are marginaly overshadowed by weak racials and ugly appearances.

If we are talking about other allied races, Horde got better most of time and I believe that's where some people call horde bias. It is objectively true that Horde have better allied races over all, but I wouldn't say it is because of some bias. Horde actually got what they were asking for - a request for mag'har and zandalari were there for really long time and players have been asking for vulpera since they were datamined. As I said, there were also many fan requests from the Alliance, like Vrykul (which would be very logical addition thanks to shared ancestry with humans and after Sylvanas' machinations in Stormheim) or broken draenei, but we got not very pleasing kul tirans, awkward mechagnomes and really lightforged draenei, who are the race with one of the least options over all. When you put it all together, it is not hard to imagine why some people find Alliance allied races underwhelming compared to the Horde.

I fear blizzard might already be shifting elf development to the alliance, they've been getting the better deal progressively since BFA's 8.1, and the new model cusotmisations show it too. At least as far as the elves are concerned. Ofc alliance will argue that blood elves already had tons more customisation initially. Yes, that's true, I'm not begruding the alliance improvements, just observing that the elves are being favoured more on their side. They are getting better roles, better stories, better changes, and better victories. Their involvements are stronger.

Void elves >>>> Nightborne involvement.
Night elves story focus is much stronger than Blood elves too recently
Void elf & Night elf customisations were a lot more than blood elf and nightborne ones

It's a trend that is continuing as far as I can see. I wonder how far blizzard will take it.

Well, Legion resolved Nightborne story arc fully, they have actually little to offer now. Their story resemble that of blood elves, so there is not that much potential to show something new. I believe it would be little different if they would be on the Alliance, since they could explore their story of former magic addicts, which was never really touched up on the Alliance, and I can also imagine potential for family reunions (there would be night elves originating from Suramar), etc. Nightborne's addition to the Horde make sense, given the circumstances, but I always felt their addition to the Alliance would be more interesting (just solely for the reason they have very little to offer to the horde which blood elves already did for years now). Horde already have heavily magic oriented elves who had to deal with magic addiction. They were good fit in Nazjatar story and I'm thankful they had their spotlight here... but aside from that, I don't know what else they can offer now.

Blood elves are without clear story for some time now... they for some reason just go with the flow of the Horde, they never ask, they just do what they are told, without much own agenda, which I find sad. Given their later orientation to the Light and their history of devastating invasion of homeland, I wonder why any blood elf did not object to the Burning, or what was their reaction to the whole event after all. It just resemble Scourging of Quel'thalas... Yet they were ready to jump into the war, only to be part of the rebellion against Sylvanas later... their role in BfA was confusing a little. I loved blood elves before, now they are just ordinary portal keepers of the Horde and random paladin fodder, I feel they lost quite much of their appeal. They also need to find new story arcs and new directions.

On the other hand, BfA was pretty heavy for night elves. They got massacred, their capital burned, so it is actually logical they get attention... I would even welcome more attention to them, since there are still many questions unanswered. It feels now that Burning of Teldrassil was largely swept under the rug and will be used only for night elf storytelling, while that event have much broader potential for whole Alliance and Horde as well. We now see kind of renaissance of night elves in WoW, they are getting more active role, they are scoring wins finaly, which is good... but somehow, we see only stories centered around Tyrande and Night Warrior. I'd like to see how kaldorei society is recovering, what's their new direction, what are they up to now? Those are all serious questions which are still unanswered.

Void elves are blank pages. We saw how they "were born", which is actually unique... and now their chapter is ready to be written, on the contraty to nightborne, whose story is mostly finished. Unfortunately, we got almost no story for them so far. I really think they deserved some attention in the ending phase of BfA, as the old god theme is heavily connected to the Void, which is their niche... similarly how nightborne got their time in Nazjatar.

I also agree alliance elves now have upper hand in customizations too. I think blood elves are not finished yet and more will come in the future. I think if Blizz is working on new features for void elves, they probably do so for blood elves as well, since these races share same model, so it is probably more effective to work on that at the same time... but it is just my opinion, only time will tell if it is correct one.

That's not a bad thing. Look at the positives.

1. Kul'tiran are actually manageable, vrykul are too big, and kul'tiran was one of hte founding nations of hte human alliance there's lore there

2. Lightforged was something new, tbh, Broken are sub-par - granted they oculd have been a little bit more interesting, i'd have bene happy for the horde to get Lightforged instead of Nightborne. (but I do like having Suramar

3. Mechagnomes are a great gnome addition they come with a new gnome city finally for the gnomes, Trolls got some in BFA, only fitting gnomes did too. Besides, there is plenty of time for alliance to get new unique model allied race, wouldn't be surprised if alliance got the Naz'dorei or naga elf allied race, while horde got lightforged forsaken or someething boring like that. Then everyone would be howling at unfair alliance treatment - just wait your turn. Look for the silver lining,, it's there, add a little patiene and you'll be much happier.. no need to cry unfair at everything.

Nightborne and night elves need a major rework - tbh, Zandalari is the night elf male model done well, they just need to fix the faces of the males, for the Nightborne and Night elves.

well, I guess it is a matter of personal taste, but quite a lot of my Alliance friends are at not really sattisfied with Alliance options, while my friends on the Horde are mostly happy with what they got.

1. I don't have problem with Kul Tirans as a nation. I don't like visuals of their models. Males have bulky upper body with huge belly and kind of skinny legs. In most transmogs, they look bad. Females are more consistent, but they look more like some middle-age housewife which does not really like workouts, then a rugged sea-faring moster hunters they were supposed to be. Both males and females would be way more appealing if they would be less fat and more... well, vrykulish. It wouldn't take much actually to bring them closer to that fantasy.

2. Problem with Lightforged is that all they represent could be just implemented to core draenei through new customizations and you'd be just fine. Now with SL we got Wildhammers and various troll tribes baked into core races and honestly, lightforged and highmountain does not feel that different to their core counterparts to be actually really interesting allied races. Both share themes, aestetics and story directions with their parent races and only thing that sets them apart are more nuanced customizations like tattoos and different horn types... which is exactly what is being covering now in Shadowlands. Broken/Krokul actually offers at least different fantasy and different visuals and have been requested by fans for really long time.

3. Again, I don't have problem with mechagnomes as a race. It is logical offshoot of gnomes and it is surely good they finaly got some attention in story (BfA was actually pretty good expansion for gnomes), but their models and customizations are just... meh. They are cool idea with poor implementation. On the other hand, vulpera got pretty good implementation and despite them not being well established, not having much of a culture (safe for being nomadic scavengers) and have little to no ties to any core race of the Horde (safe for the time we spend riding alongside their alpacas, listening that dreadful song), they are way more popular then mechagones.

So... I'd say Horde have better allied races. I'm not saying Alliance allied races are bad, not at all... they have their positives, as you said yourself.

[Rhlor]

I think it's more a case that blizzard favours Thalassian elves - they get more stuff done ot them than anyone, but night elves have been getting a lot of attention recently, so who knows.

i think people are so focused on being butt hurt at the stuff the horde has gotten over the years, they're just stuck in that mindset and can't see that it's actually changing before their eyes. And it started with Legion. Granted Nightborne going horde was trend buck, but then void elves went alliance so was it really horde favouritism?

Sure some people expected both to be alliance, maybe that's not unreasonable since the elves are an alliance centred race, but i think they are over expectant to think blizz would just lump so much to the alliance all at once.

It is a bit worrying for horde elfdom. People are really appreciating them doing the trolls and Zandalari so well, it's sparked a lot of positive comments for the traditional horde races and horde elf hate has risen sharply in particular amongst the horde as elf fatigue grows. But it's been lapped up by the alliance and i fear is skewing things. How long before they give the night elves a masterpiece like Zin'Azshari, or build something incredible for the void elves? Or worse surrender Silvermoon and Suramar to the alliance in favour of cities like Zul'drak and Farak on the horde - my worry is blizzard would see this and actually agree.

i have no arguments against what the earlier posters have said, only that I would hope the horde elves don't lose their kingdoms but instead they just build nice ones for the alliance (even if it's nicer than what we have), and treat their elves well so this bickering and fighting stops between the elf fans. The fighting should be between humans and orcs mainly. Elves should be the intelligent race able to look beyond hatreds and try to forge peace based on rational thinking, cooler and wiser heads.

That's just my opinion.

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That's not a bad thing. Look at the positives.

1. Kul'tiran are actually manageable, vrykul are too big, and kul'tiran was one of hte founding nations of hte human alliance there's lore there

2. Lightforged was something new, tbh, Broken are sub-par - granted they oculd have been a little bit more interesting, i'd have bene happy for the horde to get Lightforged instead of Nightborne. (but I do like having Suramar

3. Mechagnomes are a great gnome addition they come with a new gnome city finally for the gnomes, Trolls got some in BFA, only fitting gnomes did too. Besides, there is plenty of time for alliance to get new unique model allied race, wouldn't be surprised if alliance got the Naz'dorei or naga elf allied race, while horde got lightforged forsaken or someething boring like that. Then everyone would be howling at unfair alliance treatment - just wait your turn. Look for the silver lining,, it's there, add a little patiene and you'll be much happier.. no need to cry unfair at everything.

Nightborne and night elves need a major rework - tbh, Zandalari is the night elf male model done well, they just need to fix the faces of the males, for the Nightborne and Night elves.

Give the night elves good things would be great.

obviously robbing capital cities of other playable races is something that will not happen

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If we are talking only about void elf - nightborne couple, then yes, Alliance got way better in the end, at least when it comes to character model and customizations. Nightborne comes with way better background and introduction, but they are marginaly overshadowed by weak racials and ugly appearances.

If we are talking about other allied races, Horde got better most of time and I believe that's where some people call horde bias. It is objectively true that Horde have better allied races over all, but I wouldn't say it is because of some bias. Horde actually got what they were asking for - a request for mag'har and zandalari were there for really long time and players have been asking for vulpera since they were datamined. As I said, there were also many fan requests from the Alliance, like Vrykul (which would be very logical addition thanks to shared ancestry with humans and after Sylvanas' machinations in Stormheim) or broken draenei, but we got not very pleasing kul tirans, awkward mechagnomes and really lightforged draenei, who are the race with one of the least options over all. When you put it all together, it is not hard to imagine why some people find Alliance allied races underwhelming compared to the Horde.

the theme is void elf vs nightborne. but if you want to talk about the other allied races I agree that the players of the horde for years asked for maghar but the maghar they wanted were the ones we met in TBC which are led by thrall's grandmother and when it became known that they were not the original maghar many players complained. It was not requested by zandalari, the troll race that for years the players asked were forest troll. I admit that many people asked for vulpera and I love my vulpera shaman but the reality is that in terms of racial the mecha gnomes are much better.

[Beloren]

Give the night elves good things would be great.

obviously robbing capital cities of other playable races is something that will not happen

Agreed, it's amazing, Ravenmoon thinks that stripping the horde of its elven power base effectively and putting it on the alliance elves will solve all kinds of problems, that's just hypothesis, he can't prove that, what I can guarantee is that if they give the Night elves nice things he and many of the alliance fans will just shut up.

Maybe it's time blizzard gives them an actual carrot so we can go back to discussing interesting things instead of fighting over who has what.

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the theme is void elf vs nightborne. but if you want to talk about the other allied races I agree that the players of the horde for years asked for maghar but the maghar they wanted were the ones we met in TBC which are led by thrall's grandmother and when it became known that they were not the original maghar many players complained. It was not requested by zandalari, the troll race that for years the players asked were forest troll. I admit that many people asked for vulpera and I love my vulpera shaman but the reality is that in terms of racial the mecha gnomes are much better.

The Mag'har we got also includes the ones from outland. If they had focused only on the outland model, then all the cool variation sin WoD would not be possible. This way they get both. I don't see a problem with that. And it's not the same as the high elf situation.. when you say things like that you invite responders like Ravenmoon and the alliance team to just tear into this and blow it up well out of proportion. they wanted high elves, and feel void elves was a very different thing, which it was.

It was a cool thing, but many of them wanted high elves. Zandalari was infinitely a better choice than Amani for us, and I'm glad we got Zandalari first, because it required an expansion focus to be done properly, so we got something far better. Amani can always come later, it doesn't require new assets and particular visualisation. so it was the right choice for us. We weren't short changed.

However I disagree Vulpera are better than Mechagnomes. Gnome lovers LOVE the mechagnomes - and not every allied race is going to be great to everyone.. especially if they are mostly based on existing race, popular races like elves and humans would have popular allied races, less popular races would have less popular ones, but their fans would love it, in addition to perchance drawing new fans to the race bracket - like Dark Irons did for dwarves.

Vulpera are unique, so alliance are a bit jealous, but it's not like there will be no more allied races. .. blizzard need that cashcow. If they make the covenant races allied races.. you can bet that Night Fae and Kyrian are going alliance - which leaves Revendreth and Maldraxxus horde - well they may give alliance Revendreth and horde Kyrian, but Maldraxxus will certainly be horde and Night fae alliance, of the 4 of them, only Maldraxxus isn't unique, so alliance would get 2 unique races while horde will get one.. and everyone can say we got our turn when we got Vulpera.

All this whining of unfairness is like little kiddies in a playground.

[Rhlor]

Agreed, it's amazing, Ravenmoon thinks that stripping the horde of its elven power base effectively and putting it on the alliance elves will solve all kinds of problems, that's just hypothesis, he can't prove that, what I can guarantee is that if they give the Night elves nice things he and many of the alliance fans will just shut up.

Maybe it's time blizzard gives them an actual carrot so we can go back to discussing interesting things instead of fighting over who has what.

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The Mag'har we got also includes the ones from outland. If they had focused only on the outland model, then all the cool variation sin WoD would not be possible. This way they get both. I don't see a problem with that. And it's not the same as the high elf situation.. when you say things like that you invite responders like Ravenmoon and the alliance team to just tear into this and blow it up well out of proportion. they wanted high elves, and feel void elves was a very different thing, which it was.

It was a cool thing, but many of them wanted high elves. Zandalari was infinitely a better choice than Amani for us, and I'm glad we got Zandalari first, because it required an expansion focus to be done properly, so we got something far better. Amani can always come later, it doesn't require new assets and particular visualisation. so it was the right choice for us. We weren't short changed.

However I disagree Vulpera are better than Mechagnomes. Gnome lovers LOVE the mechagnomes - and not every allied race is going to be great to everyone.. especially if they are mostly based on existing race, popular races like elves and humans would have popular allied races, less popular races would have less popular ones, but their fans would love it, in addition to perchance drawing new fans to the race bracket - like Dark Irons did for dwarves.

Vulpera are unique, so alliance are a bit jealous, but it's not like there will be no more allied races. .. blizzard need that cashcow. If they make the covenant races allied races.. you can bet that Night Fae and Kyrian are going alliance - which leaves Revendreth and Maldraxxus horde - well they may give alliance Revendreth and horde Kyrian, but Maldraxxus will certainly be horde and Night fae alliance, of the 4 of them, only Maldraxxus isn't unique, so alliance would get 2 unique races while horde will get one.. and everyone can say we got our turn when we got Vulpera.

All this whining of unfairness is like little kiddies in a playground.

he talking about the endgame / mythics. The general population of the horde and the alliance is balanced, but in mythics the pro peyers are mostly in the horde and that happened because the racials of the horde were better in mythic pve. but that population of players is actually small, suppose that you really give the alliance everything that ravenmoon asks for and in truth a large part of the population goes to the alliance, there would be an imbalance in general population the alliance in general it would have more population. but the pro players of mythics would continue in the horde for the racial ones mainly the racial troll. Anyone who plays wow knows that the important thing for the mythic pve are the racials.

If you really want to increase the population of the alliance in mythics, what you have to do is improve the racial

[Beloren]

Well, Legion resolved Nightborne story arc fully, they have actually little to offer now. Their story resemble that of blood elves, so there is not that much potential to show something new. I believe it would be little different if they would be on the Alliance, since they could explore their story of former magic addicts, which was never really touched up on the Alliance, and I can also imagine potential for family reunions (there would be night elves originating from Suramar), etc. Nightborne's addition to the Horde make sense, given the circumstances, but I always felt their addition to the Alliance would be more interesting (just solely for the reason they have very little to offer to the horde which blood elves already did for years now). Horde already have heavily magic oriented elves who had to deal with magic addiction. They were good fit in Nazjatar story and I'm thankful they had their spotlight here... but aside from that, I don't know what else they can offer now.

Blood elves are without clear story for some time now... they for some reason just go with the flow of the Horde, they never ask, they just do what they are told, without much own agenda, which I find sad. Given their later orientation to the Light and their history of devastating invasion of homeland, I wonder why any blood elf did not object to the Burning, or what was their reaction to the whole event after all. It just resemble Scourging of Quel'thalas... Yet they were ready to jump into the war, only to be part of the rebellion against Sylvanas later... their role in BfA was confusing a little. I loved blood elves before, now they are just ordinary portal keepers of the Horde and random paladin fodder, I feel they lost quite much of their appeal. They also need to find new story arcs and new directions.

On the other hand, BfA was pretty heavy for night elves. They got massacred, their capital burned, so it is actually logical they get attention... I would even welcome more attention to them, since there are still many questions unanswered. It feels now that Burning of Teldrassil was largely swept under the rug and will be used only for night elf storytelling, while that event have much broader potential for whole Alliance and Horde as well. We now see kind of renaissance of night elves in WoW, they are getting more active role, they are scoring wins finaly, which is good... but somehow, we see only stories centered around Tyrande and Night Warrior. I'd like to see how kaldorei society is recovering, what's their new direction, what are they up to now? Those are all serious questions which are still unanswered.

Void elves are blank pages. We saw how they "were born", which is actually unique... and now their chapter is ready to be written, on the contraty to nightborne, whose story is mostly finished. Unfortunately, we got almost no story for them so far. I really think they deserved some attention in the ending phase of BfA, as the old god theme is heavily connected to the Void, which is their niche... similarly how nightborne got their time in Nazjatar.

I also agree alliance elves now have upper hand in customizations too. I think blood elves are not finished yet and more will come in the future. I think if Blizz is working on new features for void elves, they probably do so for blood elves as well, since these races share same model, so it is probably more effective to work on that at the same time... but it is just my opinion, only time will tell if it is correct one.

Interesting... I would admit you make some fair points. I think they could generate new stories for blood elves and Nightborne even though their arcs are more or less complete, but it's worrying that it would be easier and more interesting for them on the alliance.

Given all that has happened in the lore and the interest from the alliance, this certainly seems to be the case and there is demand for it. Ultimately blizzard must choose. Although it's not looking bright for horde elf fans. I can almost hear Ravenmoon saying that's because we've had it very bright, there is no more brightness to give us and that it's their turn now.

I did read the essays about Nightborne having more interesting things on the alliance to continue on, especially with changes pre-sundering society and long vigil society meeting together would bring and open up interesting stories as well as re-unifications, goofs and interesting situations - this is very worrying news for Nightborne fans on the horde because we must ask the question what do we really have to offer for blood elves and Nightborne on the horde except frozen picturesquely in a snow globe/glass bottle scenario.

I don't think at all it would be too hard to imagine something new for blood elves and Nightborne on the horde, but tbh, all the interesting suggestions are coming from alliance fans like yourself, Ravenmoon and Mace, and now we must ask ourselves do the horde even want more elven development?

I did like his suggestion that High elves become some sort of light partner counterpart pairing to void elves- because that would shift the light focus of the Thalassians to the high elves, allowing the blood elves to be more arcane orientated. The problem is that the Nightborne provide direct competition for that, and are making that part of the blood elves redundant - which is why we may have to cut one of them loose effectively. I would rather they cut Nightborne loose if I could pick one, but most alliance would rather they cut blood elves loose so they can have high elves.

The introduction of void elves was far more dangerous for us. I watched when horde fans celebrated gleefully because they weren't high elves laughing at the alliance fans, and I remember thinking this would come to bite us back in the arse. Once that gate was opened, the pressure for high elves would build astronomically, it will embolden all the alliance fans previously subdued, their desire would be far greater on their faction than on ours, and blizzard seeing this obvious great demand would keep feeding it. The blood elves have ceased to be necessary on the horde ever since, we became the majority faction, blizzard know that the horde is safe as long as blood elves are playable, it doesn't require blood elves to be popular or have Silvermoon, and Ravenmoon has sniffed this out.

The statistics do show the alliance as the beleaguered faction and moral concerning it at an all time low. With pressure mounting for the elves to be the most desired solution, with void elves proving the case by the numbers, this shift is emboldened further. their huge popularity is extremely attractive, and the interest alone warrants attention cos that leads to more subs, or continued subs at least. They may end up getting everything. Story, assets, interesting developments - blizzard has seen the alliance comes alive with night elves and high elves and the horde is fine with Trolls and orcs being promoted as long as blood elves are accessible.. this I fear is what that night elf addict fan has realised Blizzard has seen or will soon see, and it may spell further misery for us.

I would love to be as magnanimous as @Rhlor at the prospect of alliance elves getting stuff, but i know blizzard, they will poor the truck load on the alliance elves - would i have to switch factions to be part of engaging stories for elves on the horde? Ah well I guess it's only another $20 faction change.

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he talking about the endgame / mythics. The general population of the horde and the alliance is balanced, but in mythics the pro peyers are mostly in the horde and that happened because the racials of the horde were better in mythic pve. but that population of players is actually small, suppose that you really give the alliance everything that ravenmoon asks for and in truth a large part of the population goes to the alliance, there would be an imbalance in general population the alliance in general it would have more population. but the pro players of mythics would continue in the horde for the racial ones mainly the racial troll. Anyone who plays wow knows that the important thing for the mythic pve are the racials.

If you really want to increase the population of the alliance in mythics, what you have to do is improve the racial

Is he though? Not many players play the alliance at end game, their guilds are empty their server activities lower, at least in my experience compare to us. I think it's more than mythic+ and pro servers. I don't think Ravenmoon is wrong there, I think he is wrong in thinking depriving the horde of elves or transferring most of them over in an elf shift would fix it all. It's a hypothesis he can't really prove, but his reasoning does ask the question. Is it so? I am afraid only blizzard can truly ascertain that.

[Maleific]

that too! the alliance has the best version of the exchange. and the horde a poor version of the nightborne! now the void elves are the allied race with more and better customizations and the nightborne are one of the races with less customization

Wowhead had a customization comparison list recently. Both genders of Nightborne have less options combined than the next highest race gender (Highmountain Tauren male). On the bright side... Male orc customization is through the roof.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=318794/...male-and-night

[Rhlor]

Wowhead had a customization comparison list recently. Both genders of Nightborne have less options combined than the next highest race gender (Highmountain Tauren male). On the bright side... Male orc customization is through the roof.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=318794/...male-and-night

it's great that the orcs are getting love! but it is not the subject of discussion here. The reality is that there were people saying that the absurd things like there were and there is a horde bias because the horde obtained the night elf model and the alliance obtained the void elves who use the model of the most played race of the horde! That was the point, don't tell lies. it was the alliance who came out the winner of the exchange, an exchange that was requested and celebrated by the alliance players! The horde never asked to have the nightborne as a playable race and in the exchange we received the race that is among those with the smallest customizations.

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Interesting... I would admit you make some fair points. I think they could generate new stories for blood elves and Nightborne even though their arcs are more or less complete, but it's worrying that it would be easier and more interesting for them on the alliance.

Given all that has happened in the lore and the interest from the alliance, this certainly seems to be the case and there is demand for it. Ultimately blizzard must choose. Although it's not looking bright for horde elf fans. I can almost hear Ravenmoon saying that's because we've had it very bright, there is no more brightness to give us and that it's their turn now.

I did read the essays about Nightborne having more interesting things on the alliance to continue on, especially with changes pre-sundering society and long vigil society meeting together would bring and open up interesting stories as well as re-unifications, goofs and interesting situations - this is very worrying news for Nightborne fans on the horde because we must ask the question what do we really have to offer for blood elves and Nightborne on the horde except frozen picturesquely in a snow globe/glass bottle scenario.

I don't think at all it would be too hard to imagine something new for blood elves and Nightborne on the horde, but tbh, all the interesting suggestions are coming from alliance fans like yourself, Ravenmoon and Mace, and now we must ask ourselves do the horde even want more elven development?

I did like his suggestion that High elves become some sort of light partner counterpart pairing to void elves- because that would shift the light focus of the Thalassians to the high elves, allowing the blood elves to be more arcane orientated. The problem is that the Nightborne provide direct competition for that, and are making that part of the blood elves redundant - which is why we may have to cut one of them loose effectively. I would rather they cut Nightborne loose if I could pick one, but most alliance would rather they cut blood elves loose so they can have high elves.

The introduction of void elves was far more dangerous for us. I watched when horde fans celebrated gleefully because they weren't high elves laughing at the alliance fans, and I remember thinking this would come to bite us back in the arse. Once that gate was opened, the pressure for high elves would build astronomically, it will embolden all the alliance fans previously subdued, their desire would be far greater on their faction than on ours, and blizzard seeing this obvious great demand would keep feeding it. The blood elves have ceased to be necessary on the horde ever since, we became the majority faction, blizzard know that the horde is safe as long as blood elves are playable, it doesn't require blood elves to be popular or have Silvermoon, and Ravenmoon has sniffed this out.

The statistics do show the alliance as the beleaguered faction and oral concerning it at an all time lore, with pressure mounting for the elves to be the most desired solution, with void elves proving the case by the numbers, this shift is emboldened further. their huge popularity is extremely attractive, and the interest alone warrants attention cos that leads to more subs, or continued subs at least. They may end up getting everything. Story, assets, interesting developments - blizzard has seen the alliance comes alive with night elves and high elves and the horde is fine with Trolls and orcs being promoted as long as blood elves are accessible.. this I fear is what that night elf addict fan has realised Blizzard has seen or will soon see, and it may spell further misery for us.

I would love to be as magnanimous as @Rhlor at the prospect of alliance elves getting stuff, but i know blizzard, they will poor the truck load on the alliance elves - would i have to switch factions to be part of engaging stories for elves on the horde? Ah well I guess it's only another $20 faction change.

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Is he though? Not many players play the alliance at end game, their guilds are empty their server activities lower, at least in my experience compare to us. I think it's more than mythic+ and pro servers. I don't think Ravenmoon is wrong there, I think he is wrong in thinking depriving the horde of elves or transferring most of them over in an elf shift would fix it all. It's a hypothesis he can't really prove, but his reasoning does ask the question. Is it so? I am afraid only blizzard can truly ascertain that.

The same happens in classic the horde surpasses the alliance because endgame / mythics pro players prefer the racial of the horde.You can fill a faction of casuals that are only interested in aesthetics but the endgame is defined by those who have better racials.

[kiramon]

The worst part of Nightborne for me is when you’re doing the sun well part and they get upset at alleria and tharyssia is like “on the contrary you value your traditions” like oh ok sure.

[Vaedan]

Interesting... I would admit you make some fair points. I think they could generate new stories for blood elves and Nightborne even though their arcs are more or less complete, but it's worrying that it would be easier and more interesting for them on the alliance.

Given all that has happened in the lore and the interest from the alliance, this certainly seems to be the case and there is demand for it. Ultimately blizzard must choose. Although it's not looking bright for horde elf fans. I can almost hear Ravenmoon saying that's because we've had it very bright, there is no more brightness to give us and that it's their turn now.

Well, of course they could generate new story arcs... but it comes with a price. For a new compelling story to be told, it needs a catalyst. Look at night elves - they were stomped into ground, hit the bottom and now, they are on the rise. If horde elves are about to have new interesting stories, they need to endure some hardship. Without it, all you will get are minor and forgetable stories and very limited involvement in major stories. I think horde elves deserve attention too, elves are not alliance exclusive feature anymore... and while I believe they dilluted Horde's identity and made it less consistent, they served their purpose and I accept that.

I have my suspicions that Sunwell may be endangered in the future (most possibly in Light vs Void expansion, if that ever happens). That may be good rallying point for blood elves to rise again.

I did read the essays about Nightborne having more interesting things on the alliance to continue on, especially with changes pre-sundering society and long vigil society meeting together would bring and open up interesting stories as well as re-unifications, goofs and interesting situations - this is very worrying news for Nightborne fans on the horde because we must ask the question what do we really have to offer for blood elves and Nightborne on the horde except frozen picturesquely in a snow globe/glass bottle scenario.

I don't think at all it would be too hard to imagine something new for blood elves and Nightborne on the horde, but tbh, all the interesting suggestions are coming from alliance fans like yourself, Ravenmoon and Mace, and now we must ask ourselves do the horde even want more elven development?


I did like his suggestion that High elves become some sort of light partner counterpart pairing to void elves- because that would shift the light focus of the Thalassians to the high elves, allowing the blood elves to be more arcane orientated. The problem is that the Nightborne provide direct competition for that, and are making that part of the blood elves redundant - which is why we may have to cut one of them loose effectively. I would rather they cut Nightborne loose if I could pick one, but most alliance would rather they cut blood elves loose so they can have high elves.

The problem is that while blood elves and nightborne get along pretty well thanks to their shared ancestry and magical affinity, it is also the biggest obstacle of their development in the same faction. As you said, blood elves now have to share their spotlight with nightborne when it comes to magic, which was usually their place to shine within the Horde. For that reason, I would prefer nightborne on the Alliance, where they could easily fit into the role of aristocratic spellcasters without larger competition and blood elves would be undisputed masters of arcane on the Horde. I also believe that with certain changes in their introduction, void elves could be interesting addition to the Horde in the end, they could bring blood elves closer to their original representation, which is something many players has been asking for lately.

As it stands now, blood elves have the only thing still unique for them - their usage of fel magic, but I don't think this will be the direction of blood elves in any near future.

The introduction of void elves was far more dangerous for us. I watched when horde fans celebrated gleefully because they weren't high elves laughing at the alliance fans, and I remember thinking this would come to bite us back in the arse. Once that gate was opened, the pressure for high elves would build astronomically, it will embolden all the alliance fans previously subdued, their desire would be far greater on their faction than on ours, and blizzard seeing this obvious great demand would keep feeding it. The blood elves have ceased to be necessary on the horde ever since, we became the majority faction, blizzard know that the horde is safe as long as blood elves are playable, it doesn't require blood elves to be popular or have Silvermoon, and Ravenmoon has sniffed this out.

I was also not really fan of faction swaping elf models originaly, but after a while, I grow accustomed to void elves and now I think Alliance have upper hand in elf options, mostly because these two groups are all distinct enough to stand on its own and fill its own niches. I also remember reactions of Horde fans back then and as you say, it starts to swing you right into back now. Elf faction swap was a pandoras box indeed.

I would love to be as magnanimous as @Rhlor at the prospect of alliance elves getting stuff, but i know blizzard, they will poor the truck load on the alliance elves - would i have to switch factions to be part of engaging stories for elves on the horde? Ah well I guess it's only another $20 faction change.

Alliance getting development does not have to mean anything bad for the Horde... Blizz just need to find a way to develop Horde too. I think problem of story development now lies in the fact that Blizz is pushing larger faction stories, with focus of prominent characters and neglect development of races. I realized that when I played classic for few month. Stories of classic WoW deal mostly with racial focus, which eventually brings you to the world better then generalized faction story or a story of a well known hero, who is a special case.

[Rhlor]

Well, of course they could generate new story arcs... but it comes with a price. For a new compelling story to be told, it needs a catalyst. Look at night elves - they were stomped into ground, hit the bottom and now, they are on the rise. If horde elves are about to have new interesting stories, they need to endure some hardship. Without it, all you will get are minor and forgetable stories and very limited involvement in major stories. I think horde elves deserve attention too, elves are not alliance exclusive feature anymore... and while I believe they dilluted Horde's identity and made it less consistent, they served their purpose and I accept that.

I have my suspicions that Sunwell may be endangered in the future (most possibly in Light vs Void expansion, if that ever happens). That may be good rallying point for blood elves to rise again.




The problem is that while blood elves and nightborne get along pretty well thanks to their shared ancestry and magical affinity, it is also the biggest obstacle of their development in the same faction. As you said, blood elves now have to share their spotlight with nightborne when it comes to magic, which was usually their place to shine within the Horde. For that reason, I would prefer nightborne on the Alliance, where they could easily fit into the role of aristocratic spellcasters without larger competition and blood elves would be undisputed masters of arcane on the Horde. I also believe that with certain changes in their introduction, void elves could be interesting addition to the Horde in the end, they could bring blood elves closer to their original representation, which is something many players has been asking for lately.

As it stands now, blood elves have the only thing still unique for them - their usage of fel magic, but I don't think this will be the direction of blood elves in any near future.



I was also not really fan of faction swaping elf models originaly, but after a while, I grow accustomed to void elves and now I think Alliance have upper hand in elf options, mostly because these two groups are all distinct enough to stand on its own and fill its own niches. I also remember reactions of Horde fans back then and as you say, it starts to swing you right into back now. Elf faction swap was a pandoras box indeed.




Alliance getting development does not have to mean anything bad for the Horde... Blizz just need to find a way to develop Horde too. I think problem of story development now lies in the fact that Blizz is pushing larger faction stories, with focus of prominent characters and neglect development of races. I realized that when I played classic for few month. Stories of classic WoW deal mostly with racial focus, which eventually brings you to the world better then generalized faction story or a story of a well known hero, who is a special case.

I like the nightborne to work together! I liked how the blood elves seem to mentor the nightborne in that new experience that is for them to explore the world.

I also liked that thalyssra and lorthemar are now a couple!