"Pay to win"

[Argorwal]

You're giving Blizzard irl money to get an advantage over a player who decides to level from scratch. There's nothing more to it, it's literal p2w. If you like it, good for you but don't act like this isn't the case.

It's not even about p2w. They said that any changes added to the game were supposed to be in spirit of what old wow is and a boost is as far away as possible from the "spirit of classic". Even if it was free, it's supposed to be an MMORPG, you build your character from the beginning and up, you don't start from the freaking middle. Blizzard just can't help themselves from utterly ruining and perverting any sort of immersion or dignity that the game may have.

Kevin Jordan, One of the OG vanilla/tbc/wotlk devs literally started laughing and facepalming as soon as they started talking about it.

The “spirit of TBC” is walking through the dark portal on release and experiencing a brand new expansion with everyone else.

The boost let’s people experience the “spirit of TBC” perfectly without being required to grind though the “spirit of classic” which is NOT what is being released and championed.

[csguba]

Blizzard is aware that the majority of their player base is longer in their teens/early 20s with huge amounts of disposable time but rather they've aged and now have full time jobs and family commitments.

Sure, it's a way of further generating revenue for them no doubt, but it allows the people probably most enticed by playing TBC for nostalgia reasons etc a way of doing so with their friends without the time consuming part that has little to no bearing on people that have instead opted to level. They will still be behind level 60s on release. People know the game ins and outs by now and "learning your character" is not the same as it used to be.

I imagine the level grind would put a lot of people off and they'd get to to 30-50ish before quitting, which would be a shame considering they would likely have continued playing had they been able to get into the actual content of the expansion. It's only better for everyone with increased player numbers.

People upset by this are just not wanting others to be happy; it has almost no impact on their own enjoyment of the game. If people wish to use this service to play then great, good for them. I'll likely be using the service myself for an alt.

[arkanon]

You're giving Blizzard irl money to get an advantage over a player who decides to level from scratch. There's nothing more to it, it's literal p2w. If you like it, good for you but don't act like this isn't the case.

This is the point many of us are trying to make - whether you agree with it, disagree with it, or something in between is an entirely different conversation - but as to whether it is P2W? absolutely, 100% the literal definition of P2W.

[last1214]

Because no body wants to level from level on just to play endgame content casually with friends.

[Fisher557]

This is the point many of us are trying to make - whether you agree with it, disagree with it, or something in between is an entirely different conversation - but as to whether it is P2W? absolutely, 100% the literal definition of P2W.

Pet stores, sub fees for multiple accounts, and race changes also 100% literally definition of p2w in your book

[Heathy]

didn't the game become pay to win the moment the wow token became a thing, when ppl used to talk about eve online being pay to win it was in reference to the ability to convert money into ingame assets, and that is exactly what you get out of tradable sub time. buy wow token, sell wow token buy expensive boes 'win'. you get something you wouldn't otherwise have if it wasn't for your real life wallet. you can trade gold for real life currency so the ship already sailed.

pretty sure it wouldn't be hard to dump money into wow tokens and somehow trade that gold over to classic. that probably wouldn't be legal, but selling loads of tokens for gold itself is perfectly fine.

[schwank05]

It's a p2w feature that anyone who wants to be competitive on alliance shaman or horde paladin will have to use, for sure.

It will not work on new Races only on classic races.

[arkanon]

If your buddies want to raid with you then wouldn't it be ideal if they can have a boost so they can jump right in. Rather than have to wait a month as they level to 70 and gear up?

If I would use it, or if others would use it is an entirely different discussion. The entirely fictitious scenario I presented is intentionally absurd to present an example of what I consider to be a very egregious example of P2W, with the only more severe scenario i can think of being purchasing powerful items/buffs that are entirely unobtainable through gameplay.

If a friend wanted to pay real life money to boost a character to play with us I wouldnt be upset or anything, but that doesnt suddenly make it any less P2W.

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Pet stores, sub fees for multiple accounts, and race changes also 100% literally definition of p2w in your book

How is a sub fee P2W? And no, I have already explained it to you - only if the purchase offers an advantage. You can continue to be extremely disingenuous all you want, it doesnt bother me at all. In the end, other users are smart enough to see through your ridiculous hyperbole and silly examples.

[chiddie]

You're giving Blizzard irl money to get an advantage over a player who decides to level from scratch. There's nothing more to it, it's literal p2w. If you like it, good for you but don't act like this isn't the case.

It's not even about p2w. They said that any changes added to the game were supposed to be in spirit of what old wow is and a boost is as far away as possible from the "spirit of classic". Even if it was free, it's supposed to be an MMORPG, you build your character from the beginning and up, you don't start from the freaking middle. Blizzard just can't help themselves from utterly ruining and perverting any sort of immersion or dignity that the game may have.

Kevin Jordan, One of the OG vanilla/tbc/wotlk devs literally started laughing and facepalming as soon as they started talking about it.

Dude it’s a game of 15 years ago. It’s not new stuff. Boost is made for ppl that are interested in TBC but won’t ever touch it if they have to go through Crapnilla.

You don’t win anything apart saving months of useless grind before getting into the expansion, that is the content you are paying for.

[arkanon]

Dude it’s a game of 15 years ago. It’s not new stuff. Boost is made for ppl that are interested in TBC but won’t ever touch it if they have to go through Crapnilla.

You don’t win anything apart saving months of useless grind before getting into the expansion, that is the content you are paying for.

Yes, and skipping those months of grinding gives you an advantage over someone not willing or able to pay the price. Im not arguing whether it is right or wrong, just stating that it very clearly is an example of P2W.

[thunderdragon2]

It's a p2w feature that anyone who wants to be competitive on alliance shaman or horde paladin will have to use, for sure.

you forget the fact that they said it will not work on alliance shaman or horde paladins

[Fisher557]

If I would use it, or if others would use it is an entirely different discussion. The entirely fictitious scenario I presented is intentionally absurd to present an example of what I consider to be a very egregious example of P2W, with the only more severe scenario i can think of being purchasing powerful items/buffs that are entirely unobtainable through gameplay.

If a friend wanted to pay real life money to boost a character to play with us I wouldnt be upset or anything, but that doesnt suddenly make it any less P2W.

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How is a sub fee P2W? And no, I have already explained it to you - only if the purchase offers an advantage. You can continue to be extremely disingenuous all you want, it doesnt bother me at all. In the end, other users are smart enough to see through your ridiculous hyperbole and silly examples.

Yes and race changes and sub fees give you an advantage.

I can pay two sub fees and dual box and solo dungeons or do things other players wouldn’t be able to do. So sub fees are pay to win in your book. Same goes for race changes.

It’s literally in the definition dude come on. It’s all pay to win

[Ludvig]

The “spirit of TBC” is walking through the dark portal on release and experiencing a brand new expansion with everyone else.

The boost let’s people experience the “spirit of TBC” perfectly without being required to grind though the “spirit of classic” which is NOT what is being released and championed.

Hell no. It's an RPG, you don't just skip parts of it to get to the end. In TBC you didn't skip to level 58 because the developers wanted you to experience it above all else. They knew what an RPG was supposed to be like, and to give new players some help in TBC they didn't go for an incredibly lazy and excessively greedy money-grabbing option, they reduced the experience required and added additional content to make things better and more fun in the old world. It's an expansion, not a separate game.

[chiddie]

Yes, and skipping those months of grinding gives you an advantage over someone not willing or able to pay the price. Im not arguing whether it is right or wrong, just stating that it very clearly is an example of P2W.

Life is p2w my friend.

[arkanon]

Yes and race changes and sub fees give you an advantage.

I can pay two sub fees and dual box and solo dungeons or do things other players wouldn’t be able to do. So sub fees are pay to win in your book. Same goes for race changes.

Your sub fee example is embarrassing, and you should feel embarrassed. First off, thats like saying that The Witcher 3 is P2W because you have to purchase the game to play it. Secondly, what dungeons are you soloing? And what advantage does that give you when everyone else can simply bring someone with them. Considering how simple this is, you seem to be having a really tough time understanding it.

If anyone wants an example of being extremely disingenuous for the sake of trying to win an internet discussion, this is the textbook example: "Wow is P2W because it has a subscription" Yikes dude, HUGE yikes.

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Life is p2w my friend.

Lucky we are talking about a video game, and not life.

[Ludvig]

If you didn't boost you'd spend two weeks of your sub (which you pay for) doing nothing of any value whatsoever before you're allowed to play the actual game.

The value is advancing your character. It's an MMORPG, you're supposed to start from zero and improve.

[Fisher557]

Your sub fee example is embarrassing, and you should feel embarrassed. First off, thats like saying that The Witcher 3 is P2W because you have to purchase the game to play it - completely idiotic. Secondly, what dungeons are you soloing? And what advantage does that give you when everyone else can simply bring someone with them. Considering how simple this is, you seem to be having a really tough time understanding it.

If anyone wants an example of being extremely disingenuous for the sake of trying to win an internet discussion, this is the textbook example: "Wow is P2W because it has a subscription" Yikes dude, HUGE yikes.

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Lucky we are talking about a video game, and not life.

Lol wait now you’re bringing in another party to this? Ok so what’s so different about bringing a friend to boost me through dungeons how is this an advantage?

See I could buy two subs and boost myself, that’s pay to win. I have the advantage over someone who doesn’t have two subs and has to level themselves. If you’re bringing in another person for your example and say there’s no advantage, then those players who don’t buy the boost should just get someone to boost them so there’s no advantage.

I know you probably don’t see this, but you literally just dismantled your entire argument.

Your own definition was if it gets you an advantage of any kind and it’s pay it’s pay to win.

Having two accounts gives you an advantage, full stop. And it’s behind a pay wall. That’s pay to win in your book.

[Ludvig]

Boost is made for ppl that are interested in TBC but won’t ever touch it if they have to go through Crapnilla.

You don’t win anything apart saving months of useless grind before getting into the expansion, that is the content you are paying for.

Leveling was part of TBC. If they don't wanna spend a couple weeks (not months) advancing their character from scratch they shouldn't be playing MMORPGs.

[chiddie]

Your sub fee example is embarrassing, and you should feel embarrassed. First off, thats like saying that The Witcher 3 is P2W because you have to purchase the game to play it. Secondly, what dungeons are you soloing? And what advantage does that give you when everyone else can simply bring someone with them. Considering how simple this is, you seem to be having a really tough time understanding it.

If anyone wants an example of being extremely disingenuous for the sake of trying to win an internet discussion, this is the textbook example: "Wow is P2W because it has a subscription" Yikes dude, HUGE yikes.

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Lucky we are talking about a video game, and not life.

It does not make much difference.

People buy time every day, for everything. I didn’t touch Vanilla because I could not stand again the 1-60 tedium, if there would have been a “buy a level 60” boost I would have probably given it a try again, just in name of old memories.

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Leveling was part of TBC. If they don't wanna spend a couple weeks (not months) advancing their character they shouldn't be playing MMORPGs.

Please, there’s no way you can get 1-60 in two weeks unless you play 5-6 hours a day plus perfectly know what to do, how and where and with the right class/spec.

That’s exactly why the boost exists.

[arkanon]

Lol wait now you’re bringing in another party to this? Ok so what’s so different about bringing a friend to boost me through dungeons how is this an advantage?

See I could buy two subs and boost myself, that’s pay to win. I have the advantage over someone who doesn’t have two subs and has to level themselves. If you’re bringing in another person for your example and say there’s no advantage, then those players who don’t buy the boost should just get someone to boost them so there’s no advantage.

I know you probably don’t see this, but you literally just dismantled your entire argument.

Your own definition was if it gets you an advantage of any kind and it’s pay it’s pay to win.

Having two accounts gives you an advantage, full stop. And it’s behind a pay wall. That’s pay to win in your book.

I didnt introduce another party - you offered a scenario where you believed you had an advantage by having 2 accounts - but you dont, and i pointed out why. I can elaborate since it seems a bit beyond you. You said you would solo dungeons, you said nothing about "I would use my max level character to boost my low level character through dungeons", this you added on after. Fact remains the same - it isnt an advantage - and ironically, you proved why in your first sentence - just ask a friend to do it, or pay someone gold if you need to. Until you can pay for the gold with real money, there is no advantage there. You REALLY want there to be, your entire argument depends on it, but there isnt.

It does not allow you to complete any content that anyone else cannot complete just as easily, if not easier.

There WAS an advantage to someone running 5+ accounts and farming mats using botting programs - Blizzard agreed, so they completely crushed that. Sure, players are working on ways around it, but Blizzard agreed that although multiple accounts are fine, as they offer no real advantage, having multiple accounts all controlled by one keyboard CAN and DOES offer an advantage.