WoW Necromancer Hero Class

[Ielenia]

Isn't the core of blood magic within necromancy vampirism?

No. There's no such thing as "core of X magic". Especially since BfA showed necromancers using blood rituals/sacrifice and not vampirism.

Cool. Feel free to attach the Bard concept to a WC3 hero as well. Good luck.

Why should I have to? Nothing says we must have a WC3 hero as part of the class creation.

"Ideas surrounding the Necromancer were put into the Death Knight class" is the same thing as "We put the Necromancer concept in the Death Knight class".

Demonstrably false. What Blizzard said is just that they put the ideas they had for the other two classes at the time (runemaster and necromancer) into the death knight class, not that they put the whole necromancer concept into the death knight concept. "Surrounding the concept" means "except the concept itself." If Blizzard really did what you're erroneously claiming they did, then we would not have necromancers in WoW. But we do.

"No class jumped out at us that fit the setting and story of this expansion like Demon Hunters in Legion" is that same as saying "There was no new death class concept that fits the theme of this expansion

Again, demonstrably false. Blizzard never said "theme". They said "story and setting", which are different things.

which revolves around death.

It revolves around the afterlife side of death, which is not what the necromancer class is about. The necromancer is about undeath, not the afterlife.

So instead we amplified the necromancer concepts in the existing DK class".

They did no such thing. At least no more than amplifying "necromancer concepts" within all existing classes. All classes got necromantic abilities, remember?

No, but it is quite a coincidence.

A coincidence that Blizzard has shown they don't give two shits about, considering they completely ignored your "must balance the armor types" arguments with the demon hunter. Not to mention "not having a tri-spec class option" has not been shown to affect the goblin's popularity one iota, especially considering that didn't help the gnomes'.

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Minions are all supplementary to that, with Unholy being the only one that has a defined minion-based gameplay. Frost and Blood don't play off the Ghoul very much, if at all.

In fact, I just wanted to add this: the only reason Frost and Blood death knights summon their ghouls today is because the ability is now off the global cooldown, meaning it doesn't interfere in your rotation, therefore you don't lose DPS by using it.

[Pavions-SilverHand]

Actually I believe necromancer would be a really nice addition

Necromancy is not accepted by anyone is WoW lore unless they are aligned with evil, every possible scenario involving necromancy is never good at any point.
In WoW necromancer makes no sense whatsoever, its a class that is only suited for evil and plays no role in a hero being one.

Might be true that lorewise common people wouldnt accept necromancers, however with all the new knowledge coming from the shadowlands and old practitioners of necromantic and blood magic might come in handy for the light fanatics lurking. This also would support even further the reasembling of the scarlett crusade and spice the conflict even more.

No new classes in WoW are needed, there is already too many that are sidelined because blizzard are unable to balance things properly.

I agree that Blizz always have had difficulties to balance class and specs. Adding a new class with 3 specs won't make it any easier for them. However adding new toys for players may give Blizz some breathing room to get content out

[Teriz]

No. There's no such thing as "core of X magic". Especially since BfA showed necromancers using blood rituals/sacrifice and not vampirism.

Sacrifice is part of blood magic. Death Pact being a prime example. Also DKs have the new ability Sacrificial Pact as well.

Why should I have to? Nothing says we must have a WC3 hero as part of the class creation.

You used Chen as an example. I'm simply asking you to come up with a WC3 hero that could do the same for Bards as Chen did for Monks.

Demonstrably false. What Blizzard said is just that they put the ideas they had for the other two classes at the time (runemaster and necromancer) into the death knight class, not that they put the whole necromancer concept into the death knight concept. "Surrounding the concept" means "except the concept itself." If Blizzard really did what you're erroneously claiming they did, then we would not have necromancers in WoW. But we do.

Which is semantic nonsense. "Surrounding the concept" doesn't literally mean that they have outside ideas and inside ideas, it's the entire idea. Just like you're never going to see a Runemaster class because the ideas surrounding the runemaster went into the DK, the exact same situation applies to Necromancers.

Again, demonstrably false. Blizzard never said "theme". They said "story and setting", which are different things.

Story and setting are a part of a theme.

It revolves around the afterlife side of death, which is not what the necromancer class is about. The necromancer is about undeath, not the afterlife.

You can't say what a necromancer class is or isn't about.

They did no such thing. At least no more than amplifying "necromancer concepts" within all existing classes. All classes got necromantic abilities, remember?

They gave Raise Dead, Chains of Ice, and Death and Decay to every DK spec. They made Lichborne a standard ability in every DK spec. They also gave the class new abilities Sacrificial Pit and Rune of the Apocalypse, Unending Thirst, and Saenguination. That is a demonstration of expanding Necromancer themes, and none of that has anything to do with the Covenants.

A coincidence that Blizzard has shown they don't give two shits about, considering they completely ignored your "must balance the armor types" arguments with the demon hunter. Not to mention "not having a tri-spec class option" has not been shown to affect the goblin's popularity one iota, especially considering that didn't help the gnomes'.

There's way more Gnome players than Goblin players.

[Maw]

I always thought that the 3 DK specs were just too similar. Less of an issue now but definitely more of a problem back in the day when all 3 could tank.

I think the Unholy spec should have played as a range caster, ie a necromancer. It would take some creative balancing in plate but it wouldn’t have been hard.

[kenn9530]

snip

It doesnt prove im wrong a picture that just splits things up doesnt say what the actual source of the magic is, arcane energy is a source of magic which can create shadow, void or whatever, the planets blood itself is arcane magic and the leylines transmit that power throughout the world, so no you have not proved me wrong, everything was made from 2 cosmic forces, shadow, death, order etc are not cosmic forces.

Also, you still haven't answered the question regarding why Dalaran laws affect what happens elsewhere in the world, let alone completely undermines the ability for a class to become playable.

If the factions didnt follow the laws of dalaran where are all the necromancers in the factions, when your allied with a major factions you have to follow a set of rules and cant just do whatever you want.

[Triceron]

If the factions didnt follow the laws of dalaran where are all the necromancers in the factions, when your allied with a major factions you have to follow a set of rules and cant just do whatever you want.

Forsaken say hi.

They have a racial that eats corpses. Where is the moral integrity there? Is that not desecrating a corpse? Are Forsaken not an integrated part of the Horde?

[Raetary]

everything was made from 2 cosmic forces, shadow, death, order etc are not cosmic forces.

Death, Arcane, life, etc. are all cosmic forces.

This is canon.
The image @Ielenia posted is warcrafts official cosmology chart, made by Blizzard, published in chronicle vol. 1.

They even list them as such on the very next page.



Also, your argument about necromancers earlier in the thread is pretty damn flawed.

First of, "hero class" just means the class starts at a higher lvl than normal and has its own unique starting area.
Second of, whether a class is conventionally benevolent has no bearing on becoming a class or not.

Void magic is highly dangerous and looked down upon, yet Shadow priests are a thing. (Hell, we have a void infused playable race even)
Fel is considered just as evil as necromancy, but oh look! Dhs and locks are both playable classes.

Nvm that Dks are already playable, makes your point about a necromancy pretty pointless.

[kenn9530]

Forsaken say hi.

They have a racial that eats corpses. Where is the moral integrity there? Is that not desecrating a corpse? Are Forsaken not an integrated part of the Horde?

the forsaken are already a hated race as it is so not much else is going to make them more hated

[Triceron]

Uh, no they didn't.

You are confusing theme with archetype.

Antipaladin is an archetype. Summoner is an archetype. Necromancy is a theme.

You are arguing as if I said Necromancers are Summoners and you would be saying 'No they aren't, they are themed off scourge and have XYZ Necromantic abilities'. Well duh, because archetypes and themes aren't mutually exclusive.

Right now, every class has Necromancy theme available to them, including Paladins and Priests who have access to Necromantic spells. This doesn't mean they stipped being Holy Warriors or Divine Spellcaster/Healer archetypes.

DK uses diseases in their game mechanics because that is essentially AntiPaladin archetypical gameplay. You are a walking tank oozing with corruption and hatred.

[kenn9530]

snip

It doesnt state what the source of the magic comes from, it doesnt really say anything just a general overview. Arcane magic can be moulded into whatever element the user wants, thats the whole reason why mages can become a warlock so easily because its just a different version of the same magic.

It is not a flawed argument, the player is the hero of the story it doesnt have anything to do with starting at a higher level which doesnt happen anymore, a necromancer is not a class that can be a hero or leader of a factions army thats supposed to be on the side of good.

DKs made sense since they regained control and it was the best way to control thousands of soldiers, its not a good idea to just allow thousands of powerful soldiers to do whatever they want, at least in a faction they can be controlled, they barely make use of necromancy as it is but a necromancers who class is against anything that is good.

[Triceron]

the forsaken are already a hated race as it is so not much else is going to make them more hated

And Necromancers are a hated class, just as Warlocks are. Forsaken and Warlocks, both hated, both playable.

What makes you think being hated or morally wrong makes it impossible to be playable?

Blizzard making the reviled Death Knights playable wasn't big enough of a hint for you?

[Ielenia]

Sacrifice is part of blood magic. Death Pact being a prime example. Also DKs have the new ability Sacrificial Pact as well.

None of that counters what I said: there is no such thing as "core of X magic".

You used Chen as an example. I'm simply asking you to come up with a WC3 hero that could do the same for Bards as Chen did for Monks.

And I'll ask again: why should we? Why can't we make up a lore character on the spot?

Which is semantic nonsense.

It's not semantic nonsense. You're saying it's "semantic nonsense" when I tell you not to call the sidewalk "street".

"Surrounding the concept" doesn't literally mean that they have outside ideas and inside ideas, it's the entire idea. Just like you're never going to see a Runemaster class because the ideas surrounding the runemaster went into the DK, the exact same situation applies to Necromancers.

Except it means exactly that. If you're trying to shoot a target, and you hit "everywhere surrounding the target", it means you did not hit the target. Blizzard never said they "merged the necromancer and death knight concepts into one".

Story and setting are a part of a theme.

They're not the same thing, though. A necromancer does not fit an afterlife theme. And the necromancer does not fit the story being told, either.

You can't say what a necromancer class is or isn't about.

I love the double-standards, here: "you can't say what a necromancer class is or isn't about. Only I can do that!" Because that is what you have done not only in this entire thread, but in any thread where people discuss necromancers.

They gave Raise Dead, Chains of Ice, and Death and Decay to every DK spec. They made Lichborne a standard ability in every DK spec.

None of that is "expanding necromancer themes" considering the DK already had those abilities to begin with.

They also gave the class new abilities Sacrificial Pit and Rune of the Apocalypse, Unending Thirst, and Saenguination.

Runes. As in, more runemaster stuff.

There's way more Gnome players than Goblin players.

Actually, according to WoW Census from 2020, there are almost fifty percent more goblin players than gnome players. Yes, it's inaccurate data, but it's the only data we have, and it contradicts your claim. Meanwhile, you have not shown any evidence for your claim.

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It doesnt prove im wrong a picture that just splits things up doesnt say what the actual source of the magic is, arcane energy is a source of magic which can create shadow, void or whatever, the planets blood itself is arcane magic and the leylines transmit that power throughout the world, so no you have not proved me wrong, everything was made from 2 cosmic forces, shadow, death, order etc are not cosmic forces.

And yet I've presented infinitely more evidence than you did, considering you got nothing but your own assertions. Only more and more assertions to back up your assertions, never any evidence of that.

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the forsaken are already a hated race as it is so not much else is going to make them more hated

And yet still playable. And so is the death knight class, for that matter, being accepted in both major factions.

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It doesnt state what the source of the magic comes from, it doesnt really say anything just a general overview.

And neither have you shown anything other than a statement of opinion.

[Wangming]

Are we still debating wether Necromancers are possible?

[Raetary]

It doesnt state what the source of the magic comes from

What? The source of each of those magic types is the cosmic force associated with it.

Arcane magic can be moulded into whatever element the user wants

Arcane can manipulate reality is an artificial manner, it doesn't "mold itself" into an element.
The frost elemental frost mages summon are not actual elemental spirits, the heat fire mages produce is not elemental magic either.

because its just a different version of the same magic.

It's not.
Fel magic is NOT arcane magic, as established by chronicle one and beyond.

You still seem to be stuck in 2004 with all the old and retconned lore.
Fel has not been 'corrupted magic' for quite a long while now.

the player is the hero of the story

Yes, yet we still can play "evil" classes and "evil" races.
Let alone commit rather evil acts.

a necromancer is not a class that can be a hero or leader of a factions army thats supposed to be on the side of good.

According to? You?
Warlocks would like a word with you.

DKs made sense since they regained control

Yet the Ebon blade still performs morally questionable acts.

[Maw]

Anyone arguing that the morality of necromancers prevents them from being playable/part of the factions is just projecting their own personal desires. Playable characters in both factions already practice necromancy, it’s a core ability of the death knight class and one of the main themes of the forsaken for several expansions.

[Katchii]

If the factions didnt follow the laws of dalaran where are all the necromancers in the factions, when your allied with a major factions you have to follow a set of rules and cant just do whatever you want.

So where is it stated that the nations allied with Dalaran have to follow Dalaran's laws? That's not how "allies" work.

Also, Warlocks, Demon Hunters, Death Knights and Forsaken all say hi..... As they all break some rule or law in Dalaran, but seem to be allied with them just fine.

[Teriz]

You are confusing theme with archetype.

Antipaladin is an archetype. Summoner is an archetype. Necromancy is a theme.

You are arguing as if I said Necromancers are Summoners and you would be saying 'No they aren't, they are themed off scourge and have XYZ Necromantic abilities'. Well duh, because archetypes and themes aren't mutually exclusive.

Right now, every class has Necromancy theme available to them, including Paladins and Priests who have access to Necromantic spells. This doesn't mean they stipped being Holy Warriors or Divine Spellcaster/Healer archetypes.

DK uses diseases in their game mechanics because that is essentially AntiPaladin archetypical gameplay. You are a walking tank oozing with corruption and hatred.

Every class has a Necromancy theme available to them because of the expansion theme. Those are not integral class themes like they are for the Death Knight class, which serves as the necromancer class in WoW.

Again, we play this silly game of semantics when the truth is simply this; The Death Knight is a necromancer class that utilizes a vast amount of necromancer abilities. So much so that there is simply no room for another necromancer class unless Blizzard takes abilities from the existing necromancer class (DKs). They didn't do that in this expansion where they had the prime opportunity to do so, so it is doubtful that another necromancer class will ever be introduced into WoW.

[Shadowferal]

Hmf...retcons rarely mean anything good.
Something not thought out...
Different writers want to diverge from the previous well-constructed outline
Subverting expectations for "gotcha" surprise
Or other reasons.

[Katchii]

It doesnt state what the source of the magic comes from, it doesnt really say anything just a general overview. Arcane magic can be moulded into whatever element the user wants, thats the whole reason why mages can become a warlock so easily because its just a different version of the same magic.

Where's your source that says it comes easily?

It is not a flawed argument, the player is the hero of the story it doesnt have anything to do with starting at a higher level which doesnt happen anymore, a necromancer is not a class that can be a hero or leader of a factions army thats supposed to be on the side of good.

Death Knights are a thing.

DKs made sense since they regained control and it was the best way to control thousands of soldiers, its not a good idea to just allow thousands of powerful soldiers to do whatever they want, at least in a faction they can be controlled, they barely make use of necromancy as it is but a necromancers who class is against anything that is good.

Death Knights are still Death Knights, they're just not under the direct control of the Lich King. They're still cursed people who literally feed off death, they still practice necromancy, they're still only tolerated within their faction.

You're applying a double standard to Necromancers. I mean, Death Knights are literally armored melee Necromancers. Why would a cloth wearing caster necromancer get completely different treatment than armored melee ones?

[Triceron]

Again, we play this silly game of semantics when the truth is simply this; The Death Knight is a necromancer class that utilizes a vast amount of necromancer abilities.

Yes but that is like saying a Death Knight is a Spellcaster because they use magic, or a Healer because they can heal themselves.

You're broadly generalizing to the point you can even call them Demon Hunters because that's also what they are known to do.

You're just ignoring the archetype and broadly generalizing the DK on the basis of their theme and actions, while I am talking about their actual class fantasy and archetype in the game.

Like I said, they are Antipaladins. They use Necromancy too, but they aren't a typical Necromacer archetype just like Dark Rangers use Necromancy but are jot Necromancers either. Same with Covenants, your generalization applies to call every Necrolord Covenant member a Necromancer, which is fine if you are generalizing like calling anyone who fights a Warrior or anyone using magic a Mage. But you can't them try to use that generalization to dismiss the Antipaladin archetype.