WoW Necromancer Hero Class

[Ielenia]

The player warlock doesnt consume souls, spending a soul shard is not consuming a soul no matter what you want to believe and the other specs dont use soul shards at all.

What I listed are player abilities, meaning that, yes, the player warlock (and the NPC warlocks) do consume souls. I'm just baffled at your dishonest mental gymnastics to try to say that warlocks actually consuming souls of the living is not actually warlock consuming the souls of the living.

Failed attempts, mind you, but still.

The creation of the arthas deathknights are not even documented so no you cant prove souls were not used to create them.

I can, though. You know how? Many reasons, but the three most important ones are: a) You become a soul when you die as a death knight; b) The death knights still remember their past lives; and c) These are the first words you hear when you start a new non-allied race DK: "A hero... that's what you once were. You stood boldly against the Shadow and purchased another dawn for the world... with your life."

And its a fact not all deathknight abilities are necromancy,

Something you stated several times, and not only have not provided a shred of evidence, but your statements have been debunked already.

A runeblade is not able to hold every single power a deathknight would ever use,

And once again you supplant canon lore with your headcanon. I literally provided you with canon lore statements about the death knight and the runeblade. How it is through the runeblade that death knights command all their powers. All their powers. That same evidence also states that death knights cannot fight without their runeblades.

thats another reason to be infused with a warlock soul to gain more powers that dont require training or a weapon,

No, the third generation of death knights are not warlocks. Evidence of that is that we have draenei, tauren and night elf death knights. And those three races cannot be warlocks.

the player right now is not actually using a runeblade and if you have been a deathknight for a long time you could train to use those abilities without a weapon, main advantage of the runeblade is that it grants access to powers without training.

You're taking gameplay conventions and supplanting lore with it. In lore, death knights literally cannot do anything without their runeblades. The fact I, as a DK player, can pick up a sword from a mob I just killed, equip it, and still use all my powers without having to apply runes to it is just a gameplay concession.

[TheRevenantHero]

Which is...?


And what would constitute "necromancy with an uppercase 'N'"?


How do you know that the void magic animating those puppets is anything different than the arcane magic animating golems in Silvermoon? Because I hope even you would realize there is a difference between yanking a soul out of Shadowlands and forcefully binding it into its corpse, and just animating the corpse without pulling the soul from the Shadowlands.

We don't know the Void ISN'T doing that. Blizzard hasn't really explained what exactly Umbric is doing. But it's clear those dinosaurs are undead and acting without Umbric following along. As for what necromancy with a capital N, it would be practitioners directly channeling Death magic.

[Ielenia]

We don't know the Void ISN'T doing that. Blizzard hasn't really explained what exactly Umbric is doing.

But we have never seen the void do that, either. And the void isn't some new thing that was introduced in BfA. Void magic has existed in the game for a long time. Since vanilla, I imagine.

But it's clear those dinosaurs are undead

Are they, though?

and acting without Umbric following along.

So what? The arcane golems I mentioned also act and more around without mages following along.

As for what necromancy with a capital N, it would be practitioners directly channeling Death magic.

So is this an arbitrary distinction, or is there an official source for that?

[kenn9530]

snip

Warlock abilities only in affliction spend soul shards that isnt the same as consuming a soul. Other warlocks are of no concern its the player warlock thats relevant to gameplay.

You cant prove anything about the creation of arthas DK its just your theories, it doesnt state anywhere the full process of the creation of a deathknight just some rough outlines.

I didnt say 3rd gen were warlocks, i said DKs are infused during creation with warlock souls to gain more powers, it doesnt say arthas didnt use this method also in the creation of his deathknights, using this method and picking the strongest beings makes for the most powerful deathknight. Any class that can be a mage can be a warlock in lore, archimonde is a drenai that became a warlock.

Even arthas didnt have frostmourne in his hands all the time and he could still use all his deathknight powers, frostmourne would be locked away in icecrown fairly often, deathknights still train and aquire skills, runeblades just make them more useful faster, as a powerful warrior prior to being a deathknight they would hardly be useless.

[TheRevenantHero]

But we have never seen the void do that, either. And the void isn't some new thing that was introduced in BfA. Void magic has existed in the game for a long time. Since vanilla, I imagine.


Are they, though?


So what? The arcane golems I mentioned also act and more around without mages following along.


So is this an arbitrary distinction, or is there an official source for that?

And BfA changed that. We have now seen the Void reanimate dead animals so therefore it's a form of necromancy. Saying "are they, though" is simply you trying to avoid admitting you're wrong. They're very clearly undead. "During the Alliance's assault on Zuldazar, Umbric used the Void to raise the corpses of ravasaurs and a devilsaur, Great Xonac, to inflict psychological damage on the Zandalari, since they revere dinosaurs and revile the undead.[18]"

Furthermore, trolls practiced necromancy using voodoo, a magic that has yet to be explained what the source of it is. Voodoo isn't death magic so therefore it's a type of necromancy that has nothing to do with death magic. Gul'dan also performed necromancy through the use of fel before Draenor was sundered. The Mogu ALSO performed necromancy without using death magic. From what I've seen, necromancer is a title for those who channel Death magic.

Furthermore, I went to the excerpt you posted about "chilling the living with the power of death". It links to Death Coil, not one of the death knight's frost abilities. This pretty much tells me that the death knight's frost abilities is 100% NOT necromancy.

[Azerox]

This Necromancer defo should have a healing and tanking spec as cloth.

[Ielenia]

And BfA changed that. We have now seen the Void reanimate dead animals so therefore it's a form of necromancy.

It is not necessarily the same thing. Again, for all we know, it could be the same thing as mages animating an inert golem with arcane magic.

Saying "are they, though" is simply you trying to avoid admitting you're wrong.

No, it's me asking you to provide evidence that they are actually undead, and not aberrations or constructs.

They're very clearly undead. "During the Alliance's assault on Zuldazar, Umbric used the Void to raise the corpses of ravasaurs and a devilsaur, Great Xonac, to inflict psychological damage on the Zandalari, since they revere dinosaurs and revile the undead.[18]"

That doesn't prove anything, really. Yes, the Zandalari revile the undead, but that statement doesn't mean that those animated skeletons are actually undead. For all we know, they could be void puppets. Maybe Umbric could have chosen ANY construct to animate, but chose the bones of the dead dinosaurs because of their connection with the Zandalari culture.

Furthermore, trolls practiced necromancy using voodoo, a magic that has yet to be explained what the source of it is. Voodoo isn't death magic

So now you contradicted yourself. First, you say that voodoo has no explained source, and yet then you state as fact that it is not death magic. How do you know it's not death magic?

Gul'dan also performed necromancy through the use of fel before Draenor was sundered.

How do you know it was through fel magic, and not actual death magic?

The Mogu ALSO performed necromancy without using death magic.

How do you know what the mogu used was not death magic?

Furthermore, I went to the excerpt you posted about "chilling the living with the power of death". It links to Death Coil, not one of the death knight's frost abilities.

That is an association made by Wowpedia itself, not one made from lore facts. I mean, you can read the actual lore excerpt if you want.

This pretty much tells me that the death knight's frost abilities is 100% NOT necromancy.

You're welcome to your opinion, however wrong it is.

- - - Updated - - -

Warlock abilities only in affliction spend soul shards that isnt the same as consuming a soul.

Wrong again. Those are abilities from the Affliction spec, Demonology spec, and Destruction spec.

You cant prove anything about the creation of arthas DK its just your theories, it doesnt state anywhere the full process of the creation of a deathknight just some rough outlines.

And yet you're the one making statements of facts that go AGAINST established lore.

I didnt say 3rd gen were warlocks, i said DKs are infused during creation with warlock souls to gain more powers,

Same as above. You're making statements of fact that have zero support from the lore.

Even arthas didnt have frostmourne in his hands all the time and he could still use all his deathknight powers, frostmourne would be locked away in icecrown fairly often,

Frostmourne is a special case. It is not your average runeblade. And on top of that, Arthas also has the Helm of Domination that is also a powerful artifact.

deathknights still train and aquire skills, runeblades just make them more useful faster,

They train to better use the abilities granted to them by their runeblades.

as a powerful warrior prior to being a deathknight they would hardly be useless.

Once again you make statements of fact that go directly against established lore. You're supplanting canon lore with your headcanons.

[TheRevenantHero]

It is not necessarily the same thing. Again, for all we know, it could be the same thing as mages animating an inert golem with arcane magic.


No, it's me asking you to provide evidence that they are actually undead, and not aberrations or constructs.


That doesn't prove anything, really. Yes, the Zandalari revile the undead, but that statement doesn't mean that those animated skeletons are actually undead. For all we know, they could be void puppets. Maybe Umbric could have chosen ANY construct to animate, but chose the bones of the dead dinosaurs because of their connection with the Zandalari culture.


So now you contradicted yourself. First, you say that voodoo has no explained source, and yet then you state as fact that it is not death magic. How do you know it's not death magic?


How do you know it was through fel magic, and not actual death magic?


How do you know what the mogu used was not death magic?


That is an association made by Wowpedia itself, not one made from lore facts. I mean, you can read the actual lore excerpt if you want.


You're welcome to your opinion, however wrong it is.

- - - Updated - - -


Wrong again. Those are abilities from the Affliction spec, Demonology spec, and Destruction spec.


And yet you're the one making statements of facts that go AGAINST established lore.


Same as above. You're making statements of fact that have zero support from the lore.


Frostmourne is a special case. It is not your average runeblade. And on top of that, Arthas also has the Helm of Domination that is also a powerful artifact.


They train to better use the abilities granted to them by their runeblades.


Once again you make statements of fact that go directly against established lore. You're supplanting canon lore with your headcanons.

Lol no wonder you and Teriz argue back and forth so much. You're both full of semantics and double standards. I literally prove each of your points wrong and you just decide to say I'm wrong or refuse to properly address points. I show how the Void literally created undead and you say they're just "puppets". WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK UNDEAD ARE?! They're literally puppets to the necromancer with no free will of their own.

Blizzard has never explained that voodoo is its own brand of magic. It has absolutely no link to the other schools of magic.

The Mogu used "spirit capture magic", drawing power from the "spirit void" which is apparently to the realm of shadows but not the same thing.

Gul'dan has only ever really practiced fel magic. I haven't been able to find any sources saying he practiced Death magic so the logical conclusion is that he used the fel for necromancy.

The lore excerpt you just posted is LITERALLY just a copy and paste of the other excerpt. And since the link to "chilling enemies" goes to Death Coil instead of Howling Blast, it's clear the DK's frost abilities aren't Death magic. That's not opinion. That's fact. You're the one spouting opinion and conjecture constantly in your responses to me.

[kenn9530]

snip

A simple fact remains the player warlock doesnt consume souls, a shard is not a soul and you dont even know where they shards are generated from. If the warlock consumed the soul the enemy would die in one spell.

Helm of domination is only used to control it doesnt give the user other abilities so saying frostmourne is a special case doesnt mean anything, your stating that a deathknight is useless without his runeblade of which they are not.

They train because they have access to only a limited few abilties granted from the runeblade so they need to aquire more skills to be more effective, you can see this through the leveling process as the means of the deathknight training for what would be years.

You beleive the most powerful beings that are turned into deathknights are useless if they dont wield a runeblade, they would retain most if not all their previous skills and knowledge, your the one ignoring actual lore and creating your own head canon, the whole reason to make a powerful solider into a deathknight is so they retain previous knowledge and skills to use as a DK or its pointless to focus on just the strongest.

[cocomen2]

A simple fact remains the player warlock doesnt consume souls, a shard is not a soul and you dont even know where they shards are generated from. If the warlock consumed the soul the enemy would die in one spell.

Oh dear kenny , do you ever played warlock? read his skills atleast once ....
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=198590/drain-soul

Drains the target's soul, causing (140.625% of Spell power) Shadow damage over 5 sec.

Damage is increased by 100% against enemies below 20% health.

Generates 1 Soul Shard if the target dies during this effect.

Image killing any mob in one spell ... totally not broken game design.



In sweet times of TBC, my bag was full of these useless soulshards ... but seems new folk who not went trough that horror , and now don't know where they come from.... in past you was forced to drain-soul each freaking mob just to cast spells.

So i image you think that hunter just poop arrows from ass , if they not have 3000 of them in bag, ye kenn?

[ThatsOurEric]

A simple fact remains the player warlock doesnt consume souls

Uh, going out on a limb to assume that throughout the Warlock leveling experience, not including their
old class quests and their Legion group, they have absolutely consumed or used souls.

Hell they even have a spell called "Drain Soul."

[LemonDemonGirl]

Furthermore, trolls practiced necromancy using voodoo, a magic that has yet to be explained what the source of it is. Voodoo isn't death magic so therefore it's a type of necromancy that has nothing to do with death magic. Gul'dan also performed necromancy through the use of fel before Draenor was sundered. The Mogu ALSO performed necromancy without using death magic. From what I've seen, necromancer is a title for those who channel Death magic.

Isn't what Bwonsamdi and his worshippers use Necromancy? Or is it just Voodoo?

[ThatsOurEric]

Isn't what Bwonsamdi and his worshippers use Necromancy? Or is it just Voodoo?

It's most definitely voodoo. Their entire culture is strongly connected to it.

[kenn9530]

Uh, going out on a limb to assume that throughout the Warlock leveling experience, not including their
old class quests and their Legion group, they have absolutely consumed or used souls.

Hell they even have a spell called "Drain Soul."

Drain soul is not the same as consuming it

Oh dear kenny , do you ever played warlock? read his skills atleast once ....
https://www.wowhead.com/spell=198590/drain-soul


Image killing any mob in one spell ... totally not broken game design.



In sweet times of TBC, my bag was full of these useless soulshards ... but seems new folk who not went trough that horror , and now don't know where they come from.... in past you was forced to drain-soul each freaking mob just to cast spells.

So i image you think that hunter just poop arrows from ass , if they not have 3000 of them in bag, ye kenn?

Since when does drain soul mean consume, and still consuming a soul implies no moral issues anyway as your killing your target the soul is then irrelevant.

[Ielenia]

A simple fact remains the player warlock doesnt consume souls,

False. It's a fact that they do. And I've demonstrated that.

a shard is not a soul

A shard of a soul is still part of a soul.

If the warlock consumed the soul the enemy would die in one spell.

Except they're not consuming the souls of their current target. They're consuming the souls they have stored as "ammunition".

Helm of domination is only used to control it doesnt give the user other abilities

Shadowlands disproves you hard. It has shown that the Helm of Domination also allowed the wielder to glimpse into the Shadowlands. Who knows what other powers it had.

so saying frostmourne is a special case doesnt mean anything,

But it is a special case, because it was an extension of Ner'zhul, the first Lich King, and through it controlled Arthas.

your stating that a deathknight is useless without his runeblade of which they are not.

I'm not. The game literally is saying that. Let me repeat this fact you're ignoring:
"The single most important piece of equipment to a death knight is the runeblade. It is through the runeblade that a death knight commands the powers of frost, blood and the unholy. The runeblade also acts as a vessel to store the death knight's runic power.

The runeblade is an extension of your being. A death knight cannot battle without a runeblade."

They train because they have access to only a limited few abilties granted from the runeblade so they need to aquire more skills to be more effective, you can see this through the leveling process as the means of the deathknight training for what would be years.

Wrong. You're taking a gameplay mechanic (i.e. leveling) and applying it as canon lore.

You beleive the most powerful beings that are turned into deathknights are useless if they dont wield a runeblade,

It's what the game states. They are powerless without their runeblades. Without their runeblades they possess no power.

your the one ignoring actual lore and creating your own head canon,

This is just dishonest projection. I literally linked you canon lore and you continue to dismiss it using headcanon. Not a single time you brought any piece of evidence to back up your assertions.

[Triceron]

A simple fact remains the player warlock doesnt consume souls, a shard is not a soul and you dont even know where they shards are generated from. If the warlock consumed the soul the enemy would die in one spell.

Souls can be fragmented, such as we see with what happened to Uther in the Bastion spotlight video.

Consuming fragments are consuming a part of an individual's life force and soul; their anima so to speak.

It's not known how a being is able to replenish their own soul or anima, but what a Warlock does with it is definitely consume its energy. And if that involves the complete 'death' of the soul, then that is what it is.

And this type of magic is condemned, just like how you are condemning the defilation of corpses. Doesn't really matter if you're just eating part of a corpse and not the whole thing, the whole act is immoral, right?

[Ielenia]

I literally prove each of your points wrong

"I interpret this in a way that is not supported by the lore" is not you "proving my points wrong".

I show how the Void literally created undead and you say they're just "puppets".

Except you haven't. You just made the assertion.

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK UNDEAD ARE?!

I define "undead" as "souls of the dead being bound to decaying corpses". Which, what do you know, just so happens to align with the canon definition of "undead": "The undead are beings that have died and have had their souls trapped between life and death."

Whereas "puppets" have no souls. Like arcane golems.

Blizzard has never explained that voodoo is its own brand of magic. It has absolutely no link to the other schools of magic.

And yet you seem to know more about it than Blizzard, as you can state what voodoo is not?

The Mogu used "spirit capture magic", drawing power from the "spirit void" which is apparently to the realm of shadows but not the same thing.

"Apparently not the same thing" sounds a lot like headcanon, and not actual fact.

The lore excerpt you just posted is LITERALLY just a copy and paste of the other excerpt.

Yes, it is the same, except for one thing: it makes no associations to Death Coil or any specific ability. This is just an association created by whoever wrote that WoWPedia article.

And since the link to "chilling enemies" goes to Death Coil instead of Howling Blast, it's clear the DK's frost abilities aren't Death magic. That's not opinion. That's fact.

No, that's your headcanon, that goes against established fact.

You're the one spouting opinion and conjecture constantly in your responses to me.

Read carefully, students. This is a textbook demonstration of projection.

[TheRevenantHero]

Isn't what Bwonsamdi and his worshippers use Necromancy? Or is it just Voodoo?

They use voodoo. There is no implication that they're really using anything else.

[kenn9530]

snip

Destroying a soul is not a moral issue anyway as it frees the user from any possible suffering, necromancers would use souls to animate corpses so they would be in constant pain, the whole point in a necromancer would be to have an army of undead to control otherwise whats the point in being one.

Shadowlands proves nothing with the helm, the only powers its stated to have is control. It has a link to the place it was made in torghast thats it.

Lore doesnt support you on them being useless without a runeblade, it just means they can only use abilities they currently posses, you might not be able to battle as a full deathknight but it doesnt stop them from being just as powerful without one, a runeblade is not just a deathknight weapon.

[TheRevenantHero]

"I interpret this in a way that is not supported by the lore" is not you "proving my points wrong".


Except you haven't. You just made the assertion.


I define "undead" as "souls of the dead being bound to decaying corpses". Which, what do you know, just so happens to align with the canon definition of "undead": "The undead are beings that have died and have had their souls trapped between life and death."

Whereas "puppets" have no souls. Like arcane golems.


And yet you seem to know more about it than Blizzard, as you can state what voodoo is not?


"Apparently not the same thing" sounds a lot like headcanon, and not actual fact.


Yes, it is the same, except for one thing: it makes no associations to Death Coil or any specific ability. This is just an association created by whoever wrote that WoWPedia article.


No, that's your headcanon, that goes against established fact.


Read carefully, students. This is a textbook demonstration of projection.

There is absolutely nothing saying that the dinos reanimated by the Void are anything other than undead. As a matter of fact, they are expressly undead because they show as undead when you click on them iirc. You're just incapable of admitting you're wrong about it.

It's not headcanon. It's literally in the article for necromancy that you've fucking posted. Just because you skim over things for points that fit your narrative and disregard everything else doesn't make it headcanon. Try actually reading the whole thing.

There is also nothing about death knight frost abilities being described as death magic or necromancy. So by your own logic, that means it is NOT death magic. It's not established facts. If you were right, it would link to something like Howling Blast. It expressly doesn't. Just because you don't want to admit you're wrong doesn't make ME wrong.

I'm not projecting anything. The majority of things you've said have been opinion. I've pointed out what's actually established and you insist on spouting bull shit like how the dinosaurs raised by Umbric are just puppets despite them being described as undead.