Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Endus]

How exactly casualty lists define this? How many people dead crosses the line, exactly? And no, do not go and say "Even a single one", thats comendable, but not realistic and applicable to real life.. Your facts are basically "too many are dead". Very... quantifiable... Except not.

Nah. Any civilian deaths are terrible and demonstrate casual indifference.

Personal attacks? You do not understand military reasoning, approaches, definitions, etc. What else should I call it?

You've got no basis for this. You just don't like me.

I've studied military history. I was a part of the Reserves here.

Phone calls, leaflets, SMS, roof knocking. Every single one of those are efforts to prevent civilian casualties. To, me, that is obvious, to you, that is Israel not doing enough (while no one else in the world even does this much, thus making Israel literally the best at those attempts).

There are plenty of countries that don't kill hundreds of foreign civilians in a week. Where the hell are you getting this horse shit?

No, you need to accept that people die in war, innocent people included. It does not mean civilian deaths are not be discounted or not counted as war crimes, I am stating the obvious that someone will die regardless. Again, real life.

I accept that soldiers will die in wars.

I do not accept that civilians must die. That's a largely modern conceit, brought about through casual indifference to civilian lives among certain armed forces. If you're going to kill civilians by blowing up a building, that should inform you that you should not blow up that building. And if your actions consistently kill civilians, you are not making sufficient efforts to avoid civilian casualties.

Tragedies can happen, mistakes or the like, which can cause civilians to accidentally be in the area. I recognize that. When civilians are always part of the casuality list, you're not making enough of an effort to avoid civilian casualties.

You may have, but nowhere else have you spoken so passionately. Not like you are the only one, mentioning Israel tends to do that. I have said before - world has obsession with Israel.

If you go back and read the first couple posts I made, they weren't particularly "passionate". I'm getting a bit more vehement because of pushback on how justified it is to kill hundreds of innocent people and to continue a decades-long campaign of ethnic cleansing. A lot of past threads on other battles largely went "Jesus, killing civilians, especially kids is awful." "Yep, sure is. These guys suck." Not a lot of discussion. When the response is, instead, "no, these 58 children needed to die, and it's totally fine and not something you should be taking issue with", yeah, I'm gonna start to get a bit heated with that kind of argument.

[uuuhname]

lol what the fuck is this bullshit?

this continuing to be the focus of people who can't defend killing kids speaks volumes.

[uuuhname]

what are you even talking about? the guy is making ridiculous claims about iuds... they are perfectly safe to use...

except they're not "perfectly safe" and I'm sorry, are IUD's the focus of this thread?

[uuuhname]

god almighty some of you need to just stop. obviously you can't argue that Israel are the good guys in this situation so we have THIS discussion going on...

[Shadowferal]

For a moment I mixed up IUD with IED.
...ouch..right?

[uuuhname]

For a moment I mixed up IUD with IED.
...ouch..right?

oh... very ironic.

[Draco-Onis]

except they are...

https://www.drugwatch.com/mirena/lawsuits/

www.shouselaw.com/torts/paragard

That's just two of many suits, these things should not be on the market.

[zEmini]

So is Biden going to actually condemn Israel or is he going to be a silent coward?

[Themius]

So is Biden going to actually condemn Israel or is he going to be a silent coward?

The USA blocked another UN resolution today.

[Themius]

by that reasoning then ibuprofen isn't safe either... nothing is safe then...



mirena is listed as having up to 1 in 100 suffering organ perforation and it says it's mostly on insertion... which is because of the one inserting it fucking it up in the cases i know about, not because of the mirena itself... ibuprofen has up to 1 in 100 suffering inflammation and abnormal liver function, degraded kidney function, anemia and, becoming deaf so on...

i guess we should stop giving people ibuprofen...

do you even realize how fucking absurd it is to call it unsafe?

Liver issues are 0.64% not 1% the hearing issue is about 1%... it wasn't "deafness" but hearing loss which are two very different things.

The perforation of organs is a very serious issue.

Do you think this somehow excuses the genocidal actions of trying to control the population of Ethiopian jews?

[Easo]

Nah. .

Yes, all deaths are terrible. Does not change the real world. By that logic Hamas should have stopped too after the first Jew got killed by a rocket. As I said, comendable, idealistic, but not realistic at all.

Yeah, I can see your studying paid off when you decided that pure infantry assault with no support on a super densely populated area is a genius solutions, cause soldiers should be OK with just dying and it would somehow also magically avoid civilian casualties in that case.

Because most other countries are not at war with someone shooting few thousand rockets? Never crossed your mind?

Does not matter what you accept. Again, reality vs the ideal world. Something will always happen, wrong order, missfire, malfunction, etc. and a civilian will die.

Never said they (the children) needed to die, only that people die in wars regardless of any and all intentions, and that no, Israel is not targeting them or anything else. I mostly see just people calling out Israel. The fact that their opponents are barely different from ISIS does not seem to concern majority at all.

ROFLMAO your US made weapons, bombs and 4 billion dollars every year are what magic? Israel has never stood on it's own everything you have was basically handed to you including your nukes.

Now it is my weapons and my nukes? Classic example of kindergarden "argument" - If you defend something, then you are it. I guess the thousands of tanks and hundreds of planes delivered to Arab states for basically free from USSR suddenly do not count as supporting those countries, just the things that Israel received (bought). Or that Israel had issues buying equipment after independence, because almost no one wanted to sell anything? Nah, just roflmao, nothing else is needed. 1967 war did not happen and was not decisively won by Israel, surely it was all USA.

Yeah, roflmao indeed.

[Endus]

Yes, all deaths are terrible. Does not change the real world. By that logic Hamas should have stopped too after the first Jew got killed by a rocket. As I said, comendable, idealistic, but not realistic at all.

Here's the thing; we all agree that Hamas are terrible for their attacks. And the reason we say they're terrible is that they're killing innocent people.

You're just angry I'm turning that same standard around and holding Israel to it as well, rather than giving them a free pass because reasons.

Yeah, I can see your studying paid off when you decided that pure infantry assault with no support on a super densely populated area is a genius solutions, cause soldiers should be OK with just dying and it would somehow also magically avoid civilian casualties in that case.

Soldiers don't want to die, sure. But they've sworn an oath that they're willing to.
Also never said "with no support".
And if those soldiers are shooting civilians, well, we're back to "you're the baddies".

It's not the most effective tactic, in terms of achieving goals. But the alternatives all come with high civilian casualties. So if you're not willing to put your soldiers at risk to save civilian lives, that's kind of making my point for me.

Because most other countries are not at war with someone shooting few thousand rockets? Never crossed your mind?

It's not my responsibility to ensure your claims hold up to scrutiny, man. You're the one who made the "other countries" argument, I just pointed out that it does not hold up.

Never said they (the children) needed to die, only that people die in wars regardless of any and all intentions, and that no, Israel is not targeting them or anything else. I mostly see just people calling out Israel. The fact that their opponents are barely different from ISIS does not seem to concern majority at all.

Because we all agree Hamas are behaving terribly. It isn't that there's no concern about Hamas' actions, there's just not much to discuss, because we agree.

Meanwhile, you're defending Israel's actions, which do far more damage than Hamas to innocent people. That's what you keep handwaving. That if Hamas is "bad" because they attack and kill innocent people, that therefore Israel is also "bad" because they do the same. They do worse.

[Easo]

Here's the thing; we all agree that Hamas are terrible for their attacks. And the reason we say they're terrible is that they're killing innocent people.

You're just angry I'm turning that same standard around and holding Israel to it as well, rather than giving them a free pass because reasons.



Soldiers don't want to die, sure. But they've sworn an oath that they're willing to.
Also never said "with no support".
And if those soldiers are shooting civilians, well, we're back to "you're the baddies".

It's not the most effective tactic, in terms of achieving goals. But the alternatives all come with high civilian casualties. So if you're not willing to put your soldiers at risk to save civilian lives, that's kind of making my point for me.



It's not my responsibility to ensure your claims hold up to scrutiny, man. You're the one who made the "other countries" argument, I just pointed out that it does not hold up.



Because we all agree Hamas are behaving terribly. It isn't that there's no concern about Hamas' actions, there's just not much to discuss, because we agree.

Meanwhile, you're defending Israel's actions, which do far more damage than Hamas to innocent people. That's what you keep handwaving. That if Hamas is "bad" because they attack and kill innocent people, that therefore Israel is also "bad" because they do the same. They do worse.

I have yet to see anyone holding any Arab goverment to the same standard as Israel. Are Hamas a goverment? De facto they are. PA in West Bank is as well.

Yes, you said without support. No aviation or heavy weapons - read, support. And you again go talking about shooting civilians while not taking in account the realities of urban warfare. Walls do not hold bullets well, for one. The shooters can and will hide between women and children. And so on, and so forth. And soldiers are also sworn not to follow illegal orders, which your idea basically is. Soldiers are not there to just die, especially for foreign civilians (you forgot this again). Countries first protect themselves, then others.

What exactly does not hold up? Israel is at war (or armed conflict as per "modern media"), other countries are not. Of course they cannot compare, what I said holds up perfectly.


Oh yes, you all agree that Hamas are terrible and then just switch to Israel fully. Which is my point. Because as I have said before - Hamas does not give two shits about accountability, while Israel as democracy actually does and can answer. Far easier to do anything with Israel, than it is with fanatical militants.

As for who does more damage to innocent people? Well, very arguable. Starting from very deep pile of crap that is Hamas governing of Gaza strip to the point that literal millions are forced to run to bomb shelters multiple times per day (people even die from that too). Direct deaths are not the only stastistic.

[Themius]

I have yet to see anyone holding any Arab goverment to the same standard as Israel. Are Hamas a goverment? De facto they are. PA in West Bank is as well.

Yes, you said without support. No aviation or heavy weapons - read, support. And you again go talking about shooting civilians while not taking in account the realities of urban warfare. Walls do not hold bullets well, for one. The shooters can and will hide between women and children. And so on, and so forth. And soldiers are also sworn not to follow illegal orders, which your idea basically is. Soldiers are not there to just die, especially for foreign civilians (you forgot this again). Countries first protect themselves, then others.

What exactly does not hold up? Israel is at war (or armed conflict as per "modern media"), other countries are not. Of course they cannot compare, what I said holds up perfectly.


Oh yes, you all agree that Hamas are terrible and then just switch to Israel fully. Which is my point. Because as I have said before - Hamas does not give two shits about accountability, while Israel as democracy actually does and can answer. Far easier to do anything with Israel, than it is with fanatical militants.

As for who does more damage to innocent people? Well, very arguable. Starting from very deep pile of crap that is Hamas governing of Gaza strip to the point that literal millions are forced to run to bomb shelters multiple times per day (people even die from that too). Direct deaths are not the only stastistic.

Israel is held to an incredibly low standard so I have no idea what you're even talking about...

Israel is not at war... they're playing at slaughter and are surprised at opposition.

[uuuhname]

I have yet to see anyone holding any Arab goverment to the same standard as Israel.

because they're presented as the progressive liberal democracy.

Which is my point. Because as I have said before - Hamas does not give two shits about accountability, while Israel as democracy actually does and can answer.

neither does Netanyahu. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-47409739

[cubby]

I have yet to see anyone holding any Arab goverment to the same standard as Israel. Are Hamas a goverment? De facto they are. PA in West Bank is as well.

Yes, you said without support. No aviation or heavy weapons - read, support. And you again go talking about shooting civilians while not taking in account the realities of urban warfare. Walls do not hold bullets well, for one. The shooters can and will hide between women and children. And so on, and so forth. And soldiers are also sworn not to follow illegal orders, which your idea basically is. Soldiers are not there to just die, especially for foreign civilians (you forgot this again). Countries first protect themselves, then others.

What exactly does not hold up? Israel is at war (or armed conflict as per "modern media"), other countries are not. Of course they cannot compare, what I said holds up perfectly.


Oh yes, you all agree that Hamas are terrible and then just switch to Israel fully. Which is my point. Because as I have said before - Hamas does not give two shits about accountability, while Israel as democracy actually does and can answer. Far easier to do anything with Israel, than it is with fanatical militants.

As for who does more damage to innocent people? Well, very arguable. Starting from very deep pile of crap that is Hamas governing of Gaza strip to the point that literal millions are forced to run to bomb shelters multiple times per day (people even die from that too). Direct deaths are not the only stastistic.

This. Entirely. Every time this subject comes up the above happens.

I mean, is Hamas still using suicide bombers to specifically target civilians?

[Easo]

This. Entirely. Every time this subject comes up the above happens.

I mean, is Hamas still using suicide bombers to specifically target civilians?

Not really, at least not directly - they cannot get out of Gaza without being noticed. There are now surveilance systems everywhere and the whole massive campaign to blow up their tunnels going out of Gaza in the last decade was just to deal with that (Egypt destroys them regularly too).
Usually it is now cars trying to run through military checkpoints. From what I can understand IDF are now automatically shooting at anything that is approaching said checkpoints at high speed.

Israel is held to an incredibly low standard so I have no idea what you're even talking about...

Israel is not at war... they're playing at slaughter and are surprised at opposition.

Ahh, more emotions. Thousands of rockets should seem like a war, but what do I know.

because they're presented as the progressive liberal democracy.

neither does Netanyahu. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-47409739

Not sure what your point is.

Bibi is not going to rule forever and corruption charges are not directly related to Hamas shooting rockets. Does it work in his favour? Yes. Are they shooting them because Bibi is corrupt? No.

[Cringefest]

do you understand what up to means? yes or no?



i said nothing about that... i called him out on his fucking absurd fearmongering...

Thanks for your contribution.

[JohnBrown1917]

I can understand why Israeli have it so hard, imagine that, whenever your trying to slaughter the Palestinians, you have to sometimes spend the night in a bomb shelter. Totally ruins your brunch plans! Just unacceptable if you ask me.

[Cringefest]

Not really, at least not directly - they cannot get out of Gaza without being noticed. There are now surveilance systems everywhere and the whole massive campaign to blow up their tunnels going out of Gaza in the last decade was just to deal with that (Egypt destroys them regularly too).
Usually it is now cars trying to run through military checkpoints. From what I can understand IDF are now automatically shooting at anything that is approaching said checkpoints at high speed.



Ahh, more emotions. Thousands of rockets should seem like a war, but what do I know.



Not sure what your point is.

Bibi is not going to rule forever and corruption charges are not directly related to Hamas shooting rockets. Does it work in his favour? Yes. Are they shooting them because Bibi is corrupt? No.

No sorry, you're wrong. There's literally zero emotions at play. The only ones being emotional and unreasonable are the people trying desperately (and to be honestly, ridiculously failing) at defending the behaviour of a country that, if it wasn't Israel they'd be the first to condemn.
I know it sounds absurd to you, but simply put, you're wrong about this bro. There's a reason why the whole planet is complaining about Israel's behaviour.