Current WoW is what you get when you put the players in charge.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

They realized the truth. People may complain a LOT about things not being their way.. but.. enough will stick around and slide the card for any pixel they push that it doesn't matter. Enough of those that left now will be back in 9.1 so they can soak a month or two of subs, maybe a couple gold coins, hell a few of them might fall for the 6 month sub thing because they attached a mount and simple repeat.

WE THE CUSTOMER base more or less created this situation. Some people really like it and if they buy it that way then that is fine. Some people really hate it and bounce. But a LOT of people just sit around and bitch and moan while paying for the product. Those are the ones that enable the whole situation to remain in this limbo.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Why would somebody that is solely interested in cosmetic items in WoW even consider buying Hearthstone packs?

You talk things not being binary, yet overlook that if the TCG was just intended for MTX in WoW, it never really competed with Hearthstone as this aspect is completely absent from it.

Again you make it a binary. The TCG wasn't just to get MTX into wow it’s not one or the other it’s using putting MTX into the TCG at a low rate to drive more people to buy it increasing profits. With hearthstone that is no longer needed it had such great reach that it only needed one cross promotion and any others could just be put in the shop for even greater profits.

[LordVargK]

They were gamers in general and played the game itself. However, their default state was the dev one, unlike the new team that is mostly (if not fully) made out of people who started out as regular players who got employed by Blizz at some point.

So what's the difference between a dev that played ultima online or everquest before and a dev that played WoW?
I often read the complaint that the devs don't actually play WoW (which I view as likely, considering some changes made). I think that's way more likely than making up some obscure "Ex-WoW players make bad WoW devs" theory.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

As a fomer Yugioh and Vs System player...yeah sure that's it and not because Upper Deck was absolutely terrible at making TCGs and ran anything they touched into the ground. We LOST vs system and Konami took that shit back and the game is entirely better because of it.

Them being bad at running a TCG only further supports that they were using the in pack MTX To keep sales up and then throwing the whole thing under the bus when they have a more profitable fully digital game.

[Kralljin]

The TCG wasn't just to get MTX into wow it’s not one or the other it’s using putting MTX into the TCG at a low rate to drive more people to buy it increasing profits.

Considering you raised the argument that "Blizzard has already done MTX in 2006 / 2007 because TCG", you and many others sure make it sound like that was the primary factor behind its creation.

But thanks for the admission that the TCG wasn't just a troyan horse and primarily intended as a card game.

Them being bad at running a TCG only further supports that they were using the in pack MTX To keep sales up and then throwing the whole thing under the bus when they have a more profitable fully digital game.

That's why the very first set already contained ingame items for WoW...because they knew it sucked?

[LordVargK]

Considering you raised the argument that "Blizzard has already done MTX in 2006 / 2007 because TCG", you and many others sure make it sound like that was the primary factor behind its creation.

But thanks for the admission that the TCG wasn't just a troyan horse and primarily intended as a card game.

If were being technical here: Isn't the existance of a collectors edition also some kind of MTX?

[Crimson Spears]

If were being technical here: Isn't the existance of a collectors edition also some kind of MTX?

I don't know what MTX means... the edition just exists to milk whales. It was just what was acceptable at the time. As milking whales becomes more and more acceptable you see more and more items stripped from the game to sell to said whales. Its why we don't really get mount factions like netherwing, proto drakes, and sky serpents anymore.

Can't diminish the unique models in the shop more then raid and pvp rewards already do.

[Kralljin]

If were being technical here: Isn't the existance of a collectors edition also some kind of MTX?

One could make the argument, but also needs to be said that the CE's contains a lot more physical items than the standard edition, it's not just a digital item.

I think a big difference is also the limited availability (or was, no idea if the physical CE's are still limited) and the fixed price, which also fixes the profit for Blizzard, whereas a regular MTX on the store has unlimited supply and thus can print money until the servers shut down.

That is obviously until the introduction of digital CE's, where these two points do not apply, especially as Blizzard keep selling the ingame items from previous expansions (at least Legion & BfA) on the store to this day.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Considering you raised the argument that "Blizzard has already done MTX in 2006 / 2007 because TCG", you and many others sure make it sound like that was the primary factor behind its creation.

But thanks for the admission that the TCG wasn't just a troyan horse and primarily intended as a card game.

No I never said any thing about it being the primary function just that it served that function your the one who keeps trying to make it be one or the other while I keep saying it was served as a card game and a way to sell MTX but became redundant because of hearthstone.

That's why the very first set already contained ingame items for WoW...because they knew it sucked?

When you don't know how something will be received you add an assertive to drive people to its launch, they did the same thing with hearthstone.

[Kralljin]

No I never said any thing about it being the primary function just that it served that function your the one who keeps trying to make it be one or the other while I keep saying it was served as a card game and a way to sell MTX but became redundant because of hearthstone.

When you say "actually Blizzard has done MTX because of the TCG", it naturally implies that this was its primary function and the "MTX function" of it was not replaced by Hearthstone, nor the cash shop.

When you don't know how something will be received you add an assertive to drive people to its launch, they did the same thing with hearthstone.

They offered a mount...which you could get by spending exactly no money on it because Hearthstone is Free to play, whereas the TCG never free to play.
Nor did they follow up in Hearthstone with any cards being linked to WoW.

[mojusk]

the problem is that those who have the final word care more about making money than a good game.

[Diaphin]

I can't really imagine how bad the game would have been if it had been developed by people who didn't play or have any experience with MMO's previous to Vanilla. Same goes for now. Does anyone think that it would end well to populate the top end of development/management teams with those who had never played the game?

Bring in some new creative people for story development that can pick up on the lore and take it in new creative directions? Sure. As part of the narrative team that would likely be a good thing. But having someone like that in charge? Please....don't even think about it.

Also people who are not gamers wouldn't go into game development to begin with, as it isn't really a profitable career path.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

When you say "actually Blizzard has done MTX because of the TCG", it naturally implies that this was its primary function and the "MTX function" of it was not replaced by Hearthstone, nor the cash shop.

No it doesn't imply that at all and I even said that there was still a demand for psychical TCG's as far back as my second post.

It more so sounds like you had a similar discussion with some one else in the past and are unable to let there arguments go so you are now attributing them to me and ignoring my own which would explain why you've edited out large chunks of my previous post.

They offered a mount...which you could get by spending exactly no money on it because Hearthstone is Free to play, whereas the TCG never was not free to play.
Nor did they follow up in Hearthstone with any cards being linked to WoW.

If you think they weren't trying to get people into hearthstone to spend money on packs with the mount promo I don't know what to say. as to cards being linked to wow they didn't need to hearthstone out paced wow on earnings and players they didn't need MTX to drive people to it as it was many times bigger then wow, But I've already gone over this in previous post I'm just repeating my self at this point.

[Diaphin]

the problem is that those who have the final word care more about making money than a good game.

Thats called capitalism. Vote for a socialist system if you don't like that. And in the end, the game has proven to be more appealing and fun to most people than all the hardcore oldschool back to the roots MMOs like Wildstar that game out over the years, so the people who have the final word actually seem to know better what makes a good game than people with nostalgia goggles about the good ol' times.

[Necromantic]

If it were actually just a big milking machine then why don't players simply stop playing and paying?.

Because so many are already obsessed or addicted and no matter how mad they get and how many times they claim "I'm quitting!", they always come back shortly after. This game can get worse and worse and those same people will still remain not only subbed but likely cash in for all the optional extras.

[Kralljin]

It more so sounds like you had a similar discussion with some one else in the past and are unable to let there arguments go so you are now attributing them to me and ignoring my own which would explain why you've edited out large chunks of my previous post.

Not really, i just don't just those argument terribly compelling and frankly see them more as an attempt to move the goalpost.

If you think they weren't trying to get people into hearthstone to spend money on packs with the mount promo I don't know what to say.

No, cross promotions are fine in my book, with the TCG however, you insinuate that Blizzard knew it's going to suck and was added as way to introduce MTX into WoW.

There is a difference between "We want players to try our other games" and "We know our other products suck, so we just add items in other games they need to purchase get items in the game they play".

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Not really, i just don't just those argument terribly compelling and frankly see them more as an attempt to move the goalpost.

yet I’ve not moved any goal post your saying the TCG has to be one or the other while I said from my second post it was both but redundant.

No, cross promotions are fine in my book, with the TCG however, you insinuate that Blizzard knew it's going to suck and was added as way to introduce MTX into WoW.

There is a difference between "We want players to try our other games" and "We know our other products suck, so we just add items in other games they need to purchase get items in the game they play".

no I didn’t insinuate any such thing I said they used MTX to keep sales up not to boost sales at the launch as they thought it was bad, that part you made up all on your own and attributed to me.

[TheLucky1]

Well, the official forums, Reddit, these very boards (you name it) were full of hardcore raiders complaining about their raid shinies being somewhat "devalued" or "tarnished" by dem M+ lootz. It wasn't just "omg muh BiS weapon/trinket drops in a dungeon instead of the raid", which STILL wouldn't have had much merit, considering how OP were some of the raid trinkets in BfA (especially in Crucible/EP).

The reward of mythic raiding doesn't justify the amount of time and energy spent for years now, you make no sense when you critique Ion only focusing on hardcore raiders when it's been objectively getting easier the past few years getting high end gear rewards without even stepping into a raid.

I've stepped down to aotc raiding and i wouldn't even have done that in Bfa and nowadays if it wasn't for my guild and the players in it, running through 4x 14 keys is less time consuming and easier while being able to get very high end and even BIS gear from it.
Now let's throw the ridiculous cheap boosting prices into that nowadays... yeah no, the reward structure is kinda broken.

[Necromantic]

The reward of mythic raiding doesn't justify the amount of time and energy spent for years now, you make no sense when you critique Ion only focusing on hardcore raiders when it's been objectively getting easier the past few years getting high end gear rewards without even stepping into a raid.

I've stepped down to aotc raiding and i wouldn't even have done that in Bfa and nowadays if it wasn't for my guild and the players in it, running through 4x 14 keys is less time consuming and easier while being able to get very high end and even BIS gear from it.
Now let's throw the ridiculous cheap boosting prices into that nowadays... yeah no, the reward structure is kinda broken.

Yeah, all you're looking to get is achievements and mounts. Not everyone cares about those.

[WowIsDead64]

Seriously.

There's no real old guard left.

Pretty much everyone on the Dev team now started out as a player.

From Ion to Christie Golden, all of them were and probably still are players of the game.

So every time you say "well the players need to be in charge." They are.

Doesn't mean that I'm super thrilled with the direction of the game (narratively I feel it's far too focused on characters rather than making the world more amazing and letting us discover it.) Just that current Blizz is farmed from the community itself.

As it stands every game studio with someone age 25 to 50 in it has WoW players whether current or former in every single level of development and management.

Problem is - what players? Hardcore raiders? Players, who don't even understand, that game can be fun, even if it's routine, easy, meditative and doesn't require any effort?