Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Lochton]

100 pages of this thread begs the question: How many more do people need to realize there won't be any kind of consensus?

I'm willing to wrap it up.

Boost is P2W by direct definition (if we go by a stretch that catch-up is P2W).
Token is P2W by a stretch of calling it indirect P2W.

[Stardrift]

Eh, that is more speculation. I hold my doubt much development time is attached to the outcome (and income) of the token. The token literally filled 3 problems and created one problem(?). It made it tougher for gold sellers, it made it tougher for illegal game-time sellers, and it made it easier for people to keep access to the game, and it created gold.

It didn't just make things boom, one could call it a gold sink with value, even. When it came out, gold was way too easy to get, MoP made it easy but not as easy, and Cataclysm as well - heck, end of Wrath, an average player could pull in a good chunk too.

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The token price is controlled by Blizzard for supply and demand, they do not up the price for no reason, nor dump it. And I hold my best belief that it is for the better of the market, or you'll have auction scalping and token sales demanding MUCH more gold, making the token an exclusive product once more, heck, people talked earlier in this thread about inflation for these meager amounts but double or triple the price would happen in the control of us, the players.

Following that. It is going through the Auction House for security measurements, and the sale is randomized so one cannot abuse it for special gold trades as we seen on the Auction already.

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Except, you are paying cash, to get game time, which you can sell for gold. Facts.

Which I then use the gold to purchase power.

Fax

[Fenrys]

I don't think P2W is so well defined that arguing over whether the existence of the token or not is P2W is a useful discussion. You can set your definition so that it falls on either side of that debate quite reasonably. Its pointless semantics where neither side is right or wrong. So wherever the gold comes from doesn't really matter too much.

The only relevant question is whether it is good for the game or not. On balance I think the token is better than the alternative. Do I wish we lived in a world where all forms of gold purchasing was impossible in WoW? Probably, but that world can't reasonably exist, so I'd rather the gold was purchasable from Blizz.

Edit: I believe the only reason to focus on the semantic side of the debate is because you have an axiom that P2W is inherently bad and so whether game has P2W elements means you can short-cut the discussion on whether those elements are bad. That's obviously not true; many of the characteristics of P2W are widely held to be bad, but it isn't universal.

[TheRevenantHero]

I don't think P2W is so well defined that arguing over whether the existence of the token or not is P2W is a useful discussion. You can set your definition so that it falls on either side of that debate quite reasonably. Its pointless semantics where neither side is right or wrong. So wherever the gold comes from doesn't really matter too much.

The only relevant question is whether it is good for the game or not. On balance I think the token is better than the alternative. Do I wish we lived in a world where all forms of gold purchasing was impossible in WoW? Probably, but that world can't reasonably exist, so I'd rather the gold was purchasable from Blizz.

It's pretty much universal that if you can buy player power with real money then it's p2w. But apparently according to people like rhorle, it's p2w when it's other games but not when it's WoW.

[Fenrys]

It's pretty much universal that if you can buy player power with real money then it's p2w. But apparently according to people like rhorle, it's p2w when it's other games but not when it's WoW.

Saying x pretty well accepted is missing the point.
I mean, plenty are arguing that it depends where you get the power (does the gold come from other players or not). These aren't wholly unreasonable nuances or interpretations of the word. They have defined it so WoW falls out of scope, you define it so it falls in. Its just semantic and not very useful.

[pfbe]

WoW is "p2w" for two crowds:
- top progression guilds who try to cheese gearing mechanics by paying for ridiculous profession boosts and whatnot
- casuals paying for m+/pvp boosts, which is more of a "pay 2 get second place"

For all other players, no.

[n0n3]

WoW is pay2win, you can use your credit card to buy gold. Then with that gold, you can buy BoEs of AH, boosts in the arena, or mythic raids.

With the gear you bought via boosts you can go kill other players in arenas, open world pvp, bgs or rated bgs.

[Falkeshall]

Win what? Who's getting prizes?

[Lochton]

WoW is pay2win, you can use your credit card to buy gold. Then with that gold, you can buy BoEs of AH, boosts in the arena, or mythic raids.

With the gear you bought via boosts you can go kill other players in arenas, open world pvp, bgs or rated bgs.

Well, you don't buy gold though? You buy game-time.

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Saying x pretty well accepted is missing the point.
I mean, plenty are arguing that it depends where you get the power (does the gold come from other players or not). These aren't wholly unreasonable nuances or interpretations of the word. They have defined it so WoW falls out of scope, you define it so it falls in. Its just semantic and not very useful.

Well, basically what you are saying is what we saw some 90 pages ago, the birth of the 'indirect' P2W argument because the token is not direct P2W which the P2W definitions describe is the meaning of P2W.

[Narzok]

the same discussion is on the classic subforum right now, and i asked something similar there:

what do we gain after this discussion?
one side gets to be grumpy while the others can stroke their epeen for being "correct"?

let's say that we come to an answer "wow is P2W" or "wow is not P2W".
why does it matter what it is defined as or called?

there are a number of questions that are related to this that are far more interesting than a semantic discussion:

"what are the advantages and problems of the token and is it overall benefical or harming?
- basically what this discussion should be about in the first place.

"should there be further limitations of real money influence on the game?"
-this could touch on buying boosts and progress all the way to unlocking mechanics (valor upgrade achievements)

"gold = power - good or bad?"
- as seen in his thread, there are people who have the opinion that gold directly correlates to player power, in the form of BoEs or boosts.

[Fenrys]

Well, you don't buy gold though? You buy game-time.

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Well, basically what you are saying is what we saw some 90 pages ago, the birth of the 'indirect' P2W argument because the token is not direct P2W which the P2W definitions describe is the meaning of P2W.

Read what I posted mate. I'm not saying it. Just reporting what others are saying (so in response to your comment, no duh). I'm supporting neither side - I'm saying the argument is facile and pointless. Both sides are just defining around their conclusion. That conclusion is in aid of an axiom which isn't true.

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the same discussion is on the classic subforum right now, and i asked something similar there:

what do we gain after this discussion?
one side gets to be grumpy while the others can stroke their epeen for being "correct"?

let's say that we come to an answer "wow is P2W" or "wow is not P2W".
why does it matter what it is defined as or called?

there are a number of questions that are related to this that are far more interesting than a semantic discussion:

"what are the advantages and problems of the token and is it overall benefical or harming?
- basically what this discussion should be about in the first place.

"should there be further limitations of real money influence on the game?"
-this could touch on buying boosts and progress all the way to unlocking mechanics (valor upgrade achievements)

"gold = power - good or bad?"
- as seen in his thread, there are people who have the opinion that gold directly correlates to player power, in the form of BoEs or boosts.

This is more or less my point. The definition of P2W doesn't matter. The only reason that people are arguing it, is because of the presupposition that P2W is inherently bad, but that isn't true. Its only bad if you define it as such. The wider definitions of P2W result in a P2W which isn't necessarily bad so the far more relevant questions are the ones you posed; what effects do the mechanics implemented in the game have for its health? Should they be changed?

[Lochton]

Read what I posted mate. I'm not saying it. Just reporting what others are saying (so in response to your comment, no duh). I'm supporting neither side - I'm saying the argument is facile and pointless. Both sides are just defining around their conclusion. That conclusion is in aid of an axiom which isn't true.

And I agreed with that and pointed out how the argument developed, mate ^^

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Im getting probably banned for this but you are one of the most retarded people I encountered in my life. Or you being intentionally obnoxious which is worse.
"Uhm didnt actually got money i got only got a credit!" Everyone knows, including the fucking blizzard that advertised token as BUYING gold through them instead from goldbuyers to solve that problem. Thats also why they list the CURRENT AH GOLDPRICE ON THE PAGE YOU BUY THE TOKEN WHY DO YOU THINK THATS THERE?
Holy fucking shit i hope you get atleast getting paid to shill to afford the medications you are on.

If you cannot handle participating as an adult, then at least vacate the area.

The gold value displayed is an estimation of the market at the current time. If you hold on to the token, there is a large chance that you are not getting the amount displayed when you purchased it. You are, in fact, buying a game-time product for trading. Hence I agree, you could, if you follow the newly created term of P2W in this thread, call it 'indirect P2W' - though the win is because you help another player get game-time/credits and you get gold.

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Win what? Who's getting prizes?

Sadly. The only prizes to obtain in WoW is through achievements, one could argue that beating WoW is when you have an achievement cap for the current content.

[iinverse]

WoW is pay2win, you can use your credit card to buy gold. Then with that gold, you can buy BoEs of AH, boosts in the arena, or mythic raids.

With the gear you bought via boosts you can go kill other players in arenas, open world pvp, bgs or rated bgs.

Gear isnt guarantee you anything. You can buy many boosts to get best gear for arena, but you will still be killed by more skilled and less geared f2p players. Same counts for raids - you can buy bosts to get perfect endgame gear but you still will be outdpsed by many less geared and more skilled f2p players.
In this game skill matters much more than gear, and as you can't buy skill or can't buy enough powers to outperform skilled players - buying gold can't be considering p2w, because in most cases you will not win, you will still be a bad/mediocre player, just with gear.

[Falkeshall]

It's been fun, but with apologies, easier just to ignore the OP.

[Lochton]

I don't think there is any kind of agreement on that though. Proof? You still argue with the same folks....

Naw, there's not. We even have people getting hostile when you use facts.

And of course, there's the 'indirect P2W' term which isn't really a public term I've seen around except in this thread, but it is the only thing that can fit to explain the token by people.

As for your mention of a poll. I'm amazed there isn't one.

[Malania]

Buying currency to buy boosts, I guess that's p2w. In the modern era.

But that's never changed. You could always buy gold and buy boosts. Not really a modern era issue.

[Stardrift]

Saying x pretty well accepted is missing the point.
I mean, plenty are arguing that it depends where you get the power (does the gold come from other players or not). These aren't wholly unreasonable nuances or interpretations of the word. They have defined it so WoW falls out of scope, you define it so it falls in. Its just semantic and not very useful.

Those on the other side of the discussion are there because they are offended and feel the need to defend their favourite game.

Though nobody here is even insulting the game for being P2W in the first place. Like you said, we haven't even reached the point of discussing if it's good for the game or not.

[Stardrift]

I can't remember the last time in this thread I've seen someone arguing that WoW is p2w and how much they hate that. In fact, a number of them have offered that they really don't mind. I know I'm one of those. I feel WoW is p2w and it really doesn't bother me at all. Honestly, I see no problem at all with using your success in the real world to influence your success in games.

The level boost is totally okay in my books. I've used it when it was offered with the preorder purchase of an expansion, and I've even purchased it by itself. As do many others who seamlessly transition from freshly purchased, to geared out player.

Boosts through raids on the other hand.. Yea we make fun of people who do it but in the end, if you're concerned about these players fucking up your runs, just don't invite them. It's very, very easy to tell if they purchased carries, they may as well have a bright red target on their back.

My only gripe with it is the obnoxious advertisement spam. Hopefully one day, some day, Blizz does something about that.

[rhorle]

Those on the other side of the discussion are there because they are offended and feel the need to defend their favourite game.

Or they simply disagree with you. There is no need to insult or vilify people because the don't agree with you.

[Stardrift]

Good question...but futile. As an ex-Mod (I think it was Moana Lisa) once said: "Most threads are a handful of ppl going back and forth and not budging a bit".

If you (like me) scrolled quickly through this thread (or just picked a prominent name and checked their post history) you find it is exactly the case here.

Now...I would have loved a poll. It would probably have like 300-400 ppl voting while we are at 2000+ replies right here.

There will be no consensus, because people don't argue from one accepted premise. There is no clear definition pf p2w from..say...a dictionary site. Also there are these interesting things that poster do, which I call "moving the goalpost" like:
-it is not p2w if you buy the gold from an illegal website (like in Classic), it is p2w because Blizzard offers the token
-it is not p2w if you buy a boosting service in game or a character boost to lv 50 now (because you are far behind), but it is p2w when you do it right at the start
-people don't even make a difference where the gold is from.

For example I never sold a token, made my gold in game, paid for 2-3 boosts to get a last boss mythic mount. I am sure even that can be twisted by the holier-than-though purist into how I paid to win...something...

And finally...let's face it. Several folks just love to argue and piss people off. Because as much as they claim WoW is p2w and how they hate that and how much they hate the people who don't care - it is clear from posts in other threads that they STILL pay Blizzard and thus support a practice that they pretend to be morally outraged by.

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I don't think there is any kind of agreement on that though. Proof? You still argue with the same folks....

Again. Nobody here is even up in arms against the fact the game is P2W.

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Or they simply disagree with you. There is no need to insult or vilify people because the don't agree with you.

At no point have I insulted or villified people. I'm stating a fact.

It's not my fault people are taking a fact as an insult. Like above.

My point absolutely does not carry out to you though lol. You're one of the couple that haven't bothered resorting to ad hominem and anger.