Warcraft 3 undead campaign is just Jailor's assets fighting against eachother

[Xilurm]

Only because you don't like the retcons doesn't mean that everyone hates them? How else are you supposed to add to a story if every new piece of lore, even if it's not even a retcon is called a "retcon". Even Tolkien "retconned" his works. The alternative is to only have small stories that will never expand because any addition or change is evil in your eyes ....

Simple. Wanna add more stuff to the Dreadlords? Add Nathreza and expand their lore there while still making them loyal to the Burning Legion. Well obviously they can't do that last part anymore.

[Lady Atia]

Simple. Wanna add more stuff to the Dreadlords? Add Nathreza and expand their lore there while still making them loyal to the Burning Legion. Well obviously they can't do that last part anymore.

But where is the difference between adding Nathreza (the world Denathrius' send them) or Revendreth (their original plane). Why is it bad to make them loyal to Death instead of Disorder? They always had these weird necromantic abilites that actually didn't even made sense with the Burning Legion. Besides that, iirc Nathreza got destroyed by Illidan in his novel - so making it an expansion setting would have been ... wait for it .... a retcon?

[Saltysquidoon]

I enjoy people pretending the only way to add new lore to a world is to parasitically tie it to the old lore.

The jailer didn't have to be playing 7d chess with the dreadlords and be directly tied to frostmourne and the Lich King, the scourge didn't have to be Maldraxxus 2.0 (right down the spider people who are servants of the old gods and weren't directly created by the dreadlords or LK and Jesus christ this just gets dumber the more you think about it). That's just shameless nostalgia baiting and to pretend it's anything but is a denial of reality.

There is absolutely no reason SL's story couldn't be told with the jailer having a pact with Sylvanas and opportunistically using the helm of domination and having no impact on the previous story of Warcraft otherwise.

[justandulas]

Only because you don't like the retcons doesn't mean that everyone hates them? How else are you supposed to add to a story if every new piece of lore, even if it's not even a retcon is called a "retcon". Even Tolkien "retconned" his works. The alternative is to only have small stories that will never expand because any addition or change is evil in your eyes ....

100% wrong on every count there. Retcon are 100% always a sign of bad writing. And no, Tolkien didn’t retcon his entire works, other people did after his death. Lord of the rings does not invalidate the hobbit, it builds on it.

And yes, the new Star Wars is pretty hated. Look at fan (not bought critics) reviews of TLJ and rise of skywalker. It’s putrid, it’s so bad it makes the prequel retcons look like the wire in terms of writing quality. If you think WoW fans are nasty about the retcons, Star Wars fans are 100x worse but for the same reason… new writers come in and don’t respect the property, the lore and the history and think “I can do better” and throw it all out in their hubris.

Good story telling always looks for the future, creates NEW stories with new villains without having to retcon the history of the game. The history should be it’s biggest tool, not it’s biggest adversary

Seriously, name me 3 examples of something that was retconned 20 years after the fact that improved because I can’t think of a single one

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I enjoy people pretending the only way to add new lore to a world is to parasitically tie it to the old lore.

The jailer didn't have to be playing 7d chess with the dreadlords and be directly tied to frostmourne and the Lich King, the scourge didn't have to be Maldraxxus 2.0 (right down the spider people who are servants of the old gods and weren't directly created by the dreadlords or LK and Jesus christ this just gets dumber the more you think about it). That's just shameless nostalgia baiting and to pretend it's anything but is a denial of reality.

There is absolutely no reason SL's story couldn't be told with the jailer having a pact with Sylvanas and opportunistically using the helm of domination and having no impact on the previous story of Warcraft otherwise.

This, 100%. Hell, I still don’t have a valid excuse why sylvanas would even work with kel thuzad at all. Just that alone invalidates they entire story of sylvanas and the jailer.

The writing is so laughably amateur that I’m
Convinced you could pick random gamers on forums and write better stories

[niilokin]

But where is the difference between adding Nathreza (the world Denathrius' send them) or Revendreth (their original plane). Why is it bad to make them loyal to Death instead of Disorder? They always had these weird necromantic abilites that actually didn't even made sense with the Burning Legion. Besides that, iirc Nathreza got destroyed by Illidan in his novel - so making it an expansion setting would have been ... wait for it .... a retcon?

Hope they at least expand on how Denathrius created them and why they are basically evil incarnate. Changing them from being born along the twisting nether itself to just Denathrius' creation is already lame as hell.

[Mysterymask]

Seriously, name me 3 examples of something that was retconned 20 years after the fact that improved because I can’t think of a single one

Mortal Kombat 9 COMPLETELY retconned the first 3 games and the newer timeline is pretty well received
Metal Gear Solid 5 making the Big Boss you fight in the first game a body double generally was pretty liked
Probably a million in comic books but lets go with changing Jason Todd's ressurection in Batman from "Oh evil superman punch reality" to "Ras Al'Ghul" ressurected him.
FF7 Crisis Core...ignoring Genesis but the fleshing out and slight retcon of that game is very well liked.

[justandulas]

Mortal Kombat 9 COMPLETELY retconned the first 3 games and the newer timeline is pretty well received
Metal Gear Solid 5 making the Big Boss you fight in the first game a body double generally was pretty liked
Probably a million in comic books but lets go with changing Jason Todd's ressurection in Batman from "Oh evil superman punch reality" to "Ras Al'Ghul" ressurected him.

Mortal kombat wasn’t a retcon as much as it was an alternate timeline entirely, and even that ended with chronika basically saying that they can’t change things and it will always play out as it was intended to. Alternate realities do not count as retcon since they are alternate realities. Our mortal kombat story was unchanged and 9-11 are basically a diff universe (they are great games and I enjoy them a lot)

Mgs5 was a liked game but that twist wasn’t especially liked actually, especially amongst MGS fans

And as for comics, they change history per writer and it’s why comics as a medium are practically dead art because even by children’s standards, that is bad writing

[Nerovar]

They always had these weird necromantic abilites that actually didn't even made sense with the Burning Legion.

How did it not make sense? In the old lore the Legion were the ones who created the Lich King and therefor pretty much everything we associate with undeath these days. Why would agents of the Legion who simultaneously serve as the jailers of the Lich King not possess necromantic abilities? In Rise of the Lich King Jaina and Arthas also suspect that the Plague is of demonic origins because of its life-sapping properties that manifests itself similarly to the Fel on Draenor/Outland and the green glow that is associated with demonic corruption. What you described is an "issue" that mostly arises from the strictly divided cosmic power retcon that was first introduced by Chronicles volume 1 in late WoD (iirc) which suddenly told us that "undeath" rather than being a function of different magic schools is a force of its own, therefor effectively divorcing the Scourge thematically from its creators (the Legion).

At this point you're justifying a retcon with the inconsistencies caused by another retcon to make an argument that retcons aren't bad.

[Garymorilix]

you know people pretend to not understand something clear just for hating. They don't even keep up with all the new lore info and just pretend that eveyrthing is bad writing.

Yep, this is the case.

It is pointless to even reply to them anymore because they clearly have no idea what the new lore even is.

[justandulas]

Yep, this is the case.

It is pointless to even reply to them anymore because they clearly have no idea what the new lore even is.

There’s a lot of irony in this post

[Edlarel]

Snip

I see it more as a case of siblings bickering while the parent on the phone from work is trying to keep them under control until finally Bolvar hangs up the call entirely.

[Super Dickmann]

What you described is an "issue" that mostly arises from the strictly divided cosmic power retcon that was first introduced by Chronicles volume 1 in late WoD (iirc) which suddenly told us that "undeath" rather than being a function of different magic schools is a force of its own, therefor effectively divorcing the Scourge thematically from its creators (the Legion).

This is technically true but functionally irrelevant since the only Legion uses of necromancy in the entire course of the MMO are done by Dreadlords anyway with the exception of Felmyst. The things that set the Dreadlords apart in WC3, namely that they were their own adjutant club within the Legion that had their own rules of interaction when tackling each other, their role controlling undead and their vampirism were all thrown to the wayside in the span of the MMO, whereas as soon as TBC comes up the Legion's aesthetic took a radically different turn from the Scourge and never let up. The Scourge and the Legion have a story connection, but not a thematic or aesthetic connection.

While the Dreadlord retcon is predictably poorly handled in execution, conceptually it does far more with the Dreadlords than the MMO ever did prior and having the Legion have stolen the Helm and Sword rather than making them themselves is if anything an improvement given that it represents a skillset that the Legion never demonstrated before or after.

[Lady Atia]

This is technically true but functionally irrelevant since the only Legion uses of necromancy in the entire course of the MMO are done by Dreadlords anyway with the exception of Felmyst. The things that set the Dreadlords apart in WC3, namely that they were their own adjutant club within the Legion that had their own rules of interaction when tackling each other, their role controlling undead and their vampirism were all thrown to the wayside in the span of the MMO, whereas as soon as TBC comes up the Legion's aesthetic took a radically different turn from the Scourge and never let up. The Scourge and the Legion have a story connection, but not a thematic or aesthetic connection.

While the Dreadlord retcon is predictably poorly handled in execution, conceptually it does far more with the Dreadlords than the MMO ever did prior and having the Legion have stolen the Helm and Sword rather than making them themselves is if anything an improvement given that it represents a skillset that the Legion never demonstrated before or after.

The only thing you could argue is that the Legion did create Apocalypse with the help of the Nathrezim, but I guess they can always go back and say it's also a Mawblade created by the Jailer?

[Super Dickmann]

The only thing you could argue is that the Legion did create Apocalypse with the help of the Nathrezim, but I guess they can always go back and say it's also a Mawblade created by the Jailer?

Not even necessary, it's stated outright that it was made by Dreadlords. All Legion necromancy usage goes back to Dreadlords. No big demon uses any runeblade on screen, no one uses anything like the Helm of Domination either.

[SirFinlot]

At this point it's easier to think of WoW and Warcraft as separate universes.

Oldest retcon I remember was back in TBC, in Blood Elf zone, Deatholme.
The bad boy "Dar'Khan Drathir" betrayed all High Elves.

Never happened in Warcraft 3. Folks where murdered and slaughtered by crapton of ghouls, crypt fiends and Arthas.
I know it, I did it last week.

Yet, comics retconned it, that some elven fuck lowered the shields or some shit like that.

Who cares at this point.

Sylvanas & Anduin supporter!

[Saltysquidoon]

WCII DK's were necromancers, hell the WC O&H Necrolytes are necromancers. I'm sure this can be hastily posthoc handwaved as training received from dreadlords I feel like it's somewhat minimizing to ascribe the legion's necromantic connection solely as existing post dreadlord.

[Super Dickmann]

Never happened in Warcraft 3. Folks where murdered and slaughtered by crapton of ghouls, crypt fiends and Arthas.

The lore keeps insisting that Arthas and Uther had a fateful duel, when as a WC3 player I personally know that Arthas was a level 3 pansy whereas Uther was level 10 so canonically Arthas ran in circles like a pussy, kiting Uther until his obscenely long-lasting shield ran out and then mobbed him with ghouls and meatwagons.

Also Quel'thalas fell because they allowed goblin merchants into their territories who sold Arthas zeppelins to invade their kingdom with, without them he'd have been stuck at the river.

@Saltysquidoon

Also not necessary, even disregarding Warlords, we know the orcs had a preexisting culture of shamanism and connection with the dead to base it off of. We don't need to be Blizzard and insert dreadlords into it. Obviously in real life back in WC2 DKs were just using nondescript dark magic.

The point I'm getting across isn't that in-story the Legion were taught it by dreadlords, though that'd fit fairly well, or that Blizzard were secretly planning this bs all along, obviously not. Rather that the Legion's depicted usage of necromancy, runeblades and essentially any and all things unique to the Scourge has been next to nill since WoW, so for over fifteen years of lore at this point, and effectively becomes nill if you disregard the dreadlords. Also that the Dreadlords themselves had most of their most interesting traits from WC3 toned down going into WC3 and while the way the retcon has handled them is poor, the general concept is not bad by itself.

[Overlordd]

The lore keeps insisting that Arthas and Uther had a fateful duel, when as a WC3 player I personally know that Arthas was a level 3 pansy whereas Uther was level 10 so canonically Arthas ran in circles like a pussy, kiting Uther until his obscenely long-lasting shield ran out and then mobbed him with ghouls and meatwagons.

Also Quel'thalas fell because they allowed goblin merchants into their territories who sold Arthas zeppelins to invade their kingdom with, without them he'd have been stuck at the river.

That last one is your own creation. During that campaign I remember you had to take the long way by destroying forests with a catapult to pave the path yourself.
Why lie about that?

[SirFinlot]

The lore keeps insisting that Arthas and Uther had a fateful duel, when as a WC3 player I personally know that Arthas was a level 3 pansy whereas Uther was level 10 so canonically Arthas ran in circles like a pussy, kiting Uther until his obscenely long-lasting shield ran out and then mobbed him with ghouls and meatwagons.

Also Quel'thalas fell because they allowed goblin merchants into their territories who sold Arthas zeppelins to invade their kingdom with, without them he'd have been stuck at the river.

Meatwagons do splash damage onto ghouls, when fighting something as small as enemy unit, so I avoid them.
But that's not the fun part!

I actually managed Arthas getting killed at that point, I forgot holly light! Arthas was already on low HP and Uther nuked him.
Nevertheless, ghouls finished the job.

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That last one is your own creation. During that campaign I remember you had to take the long way by destroying forests with a catapult to pave the path yourself.
Why lie about that?

The second mission in Quel'Thalas involved goblins. They gave you Zeppelins to cross river.
You had to remake "Amulet of Three Moons" if I am correct. Then you had to go to the gate.

There was no lie in Super Dickmann's post.

Edit.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owh0OdWg8MQ The video of mission.

[Super Dickmann]

That last one is your own creation. During that campaign I remember you had to take the long way by destroying forests with a catapult to pave the path yourself.
Why lie about that?

You're thinking of a different mission. The third mission is where there's extras you can get clearing trees with meatwagons. The fourth one is where Sylvanas dunks the bridge and you go buy zeppelins from a random goblin observatory.