Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Nyel]

Of course I'm aware Blizzard show numbers that make them look the best, but we simply don't have trusted sources. SE and Bethesda do the same, they show number of accounts created. Current FF spike is noticable, but this is hyped mostly by FF rabid fanboys and WoW haters, devs are much more tone down. If "FF has more players right now" was so obvious, they would release official current number of subs, even as one time thing. Big companies simply don't miss occasions like this.

Ah yeah, sure. And you think Blizzard wouldn't have done the same when sub numbers during BfA and Shadowlands would have been as great as the magical 24h sales suggest? Come on, you know better. They would have absolutely bragged about it to shut down all the naysayers. Yet everything they report are these initial sales figures because that's the peak of players during a new expansion and after that it's only getting down.

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Because of the anti-Blizzard and anti-WoW culture going on right now? XIV is the second biggest MMO and has marketable traits of things not found in WoW.

The second that WoW introduces a patch or expansion worth the attention of those taking a break from the game, they will more than likely be back. Just like WoD - Legion.

So this means 9.1 completely failed in that regard? Because the surge in FFXIV activity happened before and right around 9.1 release and is still going. Which would bring us back to the argument that Shadowlands has been poorly received over time (again, the expansion is just in its 8th month) and 9.1 just cemented that perception even more.

And what's "anti WoW" culture? TBC is very much liked. At best it's an "anti retail WoW" culture which seems to be warranted, don't you think?

[Nagawithlegs]

So this means 9.1 completely failed in that regard? Because the surge in FFXIV activity happened before and right around 9.1 release and is still going.

Yes, it didn't captivate people enough. It's a small patch like most .1's and the delay in putting it out actively hurt the community.

There is nothing in 9.1 that motivates people that didn't like launch. 9.2 COULD change this but it's unlikely we're going to get any more community shifts in mood until 10.0.

Though, Arthas's involvement/what they do with Sylvanas may or may not shift some feelings. But it still won't give people the single-player story-focused experience they want, and it's up to 10.0 to cater to these desires.

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And what's "anti WoW" culture? TBC is very much liked. At best it's an "anti retail WoW" culture which seems to be warranted, don't you think?

As someone who likes the current retail WoW, yes there is a very large anti retail WoW culture. I don't agree with it but I understand it, and my thoughts don't exactly matter as I like it (and Blizz is concerned with those who don't).

[Nyel]

Yes, it didn't captivate people enough. It's a small patch like most .1's and the delay in putting it out actively hurt the community.

There is nothing in 9.1 that motivates people that didn't like launch. 9.2 COULD change this but it's unlikely we're going to get any more community shifts in mood until 10.0.

Oh, I absolutely agree on this. I just think that nothing they will or do during Shadowlands could possible recover the losses made or caused by Shadowlands, deliberately or not.

10.0 can and will though, if it's as ambitious as Legion was.

[Nagawithlegs]

Oh, I absolutely agree on this. I just think that nothing they will or do during Shadowlands could possible recover the losses made during Shadowlands. 10.0 can though, if it's as ambitious as Legion was.

If I'm right that Shadowlands was designed to be two patches (and not a half that was dropped: the story structure really does look like Jailer is dealt with next patch without any detours and therefore the expansion ends) then it lends credence to the idea that 10.0 will be Legion-esque, and SL was meant to be more complete at launch/9.1 (which it kind of is Shadowlands wise) so devs could shift focus to 10.0 earlier.

Unlike WoD however it would be a planned thing.

Aside from the Jailer and Anduin's fate, the SL story is kind of done in 9.1. All covenants are fixed, sigils are reformed, all the zones are okay, drought is over. Jailer says we need to reform sigils and then pursue Zovaal... so just need to kill or reimprison Jailer and save Anduin.

Only seeming mystery plotpoint: why is Baine here? Calia now makes sense as she will now have a chance to speak with good?Sylvanas.

[Nyel]

If I'm right that Shadowlands was designed to be two patches (and not a half that was dropped: the story structure really does look like Jailer is dealt with next patch without any detours and therefore the expansion ends) then it lends credence to the idea that 10.0 will be Legion-esque, and SL was meant to be more complete at launch/9.1 (which it kind of is Shadowlands wise) so devs could shift focus to 10.0 earlier.

Unlike WoD however it would be a planned thing.

Aside from the Jailer and Anduin's fate, the SL story is kind of done in 9.1. All covenants are fixed, sigils are reformed, all the zones are okay, drought is over. Jailer says we need to reform sigils and then pursue Zovaal... so just need to kill or reimprison Jailer and save Anduin.

Only seeming mystery plotpoint: why is Baine here? Calia now makes sense as she will now have a chance to speak with good?Sylvanas.

Hey, I 100% agree with everything you said about Shadowlands, its structure and patches. So let's hope 10.0 is really that ambitious and not another Pseudo-Legion like BfA and Shadowlands.

[Kayze]

I'd love...

- Return to Azeroth, remade with the graphical standards of today.
- Return to a better MMO-friendly story, not a poor attempt at a single player campaign.
- Remove the cluster of gimmicky borrowed-power systems and focus on bettering core systems.
- Flexible level ranges with a solid stopper. E.g. 60-62 mobs start at 60 and scale up to 62.
- No more gear scaling. Stop making you feel weaker when you level. General activities in zones shouldn't be a slow dungeon-level grind.
- An option to toggle off frivolous store mounts and replace the model with a standard mount. Stop killing immersion with shitty sparkle mounts.

I'd like to see more faction and sub faction based stories spread out in various campaigns. Enough 'lost puppy' major lore characters to babysit or stories that happen with zero input from you, and instead recapture the feeling of exploring with thousands of other adventurers. Less treadmill theme park rides and more helping recover secrets or saving towns.

[Dracullus]

Ah yeah, sure. And you think Blizzard wouldn't have done the same when sub numbers during BfA and Shadowlands would have been as great as the magical 24h sales suggest? Come on, you know better. They would have absolutely bragged about it to shut down all the naysayers. Yet everything they report are these initial sales figures because that's the peak of players during a new expansion and after that it's only getting down.

Imo situation would have to be drastically better than usual for them to reveal subs mid expac, no one ever said it is the case. They don't even reveal subs on launch, when we know we have shit ton of people. Tom Chilton slipped about 10.1M subs during Legion launch, but he was silenced by HQ pretty quickly. I don't think he lied, it would be silly (not to mention it would be silly to think Legion wouldn't reach same popularity as WoD).

And sales don't suggest there is some magical change, it's just 3.7M against usual 3.3-3.4M after all. But for sure this number correlate with popularity of expansion on launch, especially since WoD (cause before WoD there were no benefit from pre-order) - and it is stable for years, not shrinking like many of you like to suggest, at least not rapidly.

Also funny thing, SL reach this number despite really bad marketing (no TV commercial, no awesome pre-patch event that is marketing tool as well). Feels like hype was low as well, although on Twitch it reached almost as many viewers as Vanilla Classic, many more than TBC. At least for me BfA/Legion felt more enjoyable, I think I was wrong and summer is better time to release expac after all.

Hey, I 100% agree with everything you said about Shadowlands, its structure and patches. So let's hope 10.0 is really that ambitious and not another Pseudo-Legion like BfA and Shadowlands.

Legion is base for both BfA, SL, but not Legion patch structure. We are back to big patches every few months, Legion way was spliting content evenly. That probably was plan for BfA and SL as well, but in both cases .1 was delayed - we often compare 9.1 delay to 8.1, but forget 4 months is also pretty late for first patch. 8.0 was so rushed first months they had to fix 8.0 bugs instead of working on 8.1.

If 8.1/9.1 came ~2.5 month after launch (of course 9.1 would look different in this case, without Korthia, Tazavesh and SoD), 2nd raid would come in 8.1.5/9.1.5. But if patch is late, it was time for new raid as well, and everything is shifted to match big patch every patch. Without raid and season X.X.5 patch is not enough to bring back 'seasonal' players.

[AngerFork]

Only seeming mystery plotpoint: why is Baine here? Calia now makes sense as she will now have a chance to speak with good?Sylvanas.

Personal theory: most of the Azeroth leaders that were brought into the Shadowlands were brought there to meet with someone specific. We've seen Thrall & Draka meet as well as Alexandros & Darion. Taelia came along to meet Bolvar, our guide. It seems likely that Calia will wind up meeting with Arthas or Terenas as some point soon. Anduin is definitely here for the mind control, but I wouldn't be surprised if Blizz somehow explains away Varian's soul being destroyed by Fel & allows the two to meet up for a heartwarming moment. Baine in that case may well meet up with Cairne, possibly to talk about the future of the Horde.

[Lady Atia]

I'd love...

- Return to Azeroth, remade with the graphical standards of today.
- Return to a better MMO-friendly story, not a poor attempt at a single player campaign.
- Remove the cluster of gimmicky borrowed-power systems and focus on bettering core systems.
- Flexible level ranges with a solid stopper. E.g. 60-62 mobs start at 60 and scale up to 62.
- No more gear scaling. Stop making you feel weaker when you level. General activities in zones shouldn't be a slow dungeon-level grind.
- An option to toggle off frivolous store mounts and replace the model with a standard mount. Stop killing immersion with shitty sparkle mounts.

I'd like to see more faction and sub faction based stories spread out in various campaigns. Enough 'lost puppy' major lore characters to babysit or stories that happen with zero input from you, and instead recapture the feeling of exploring with thousands of other adventurers. Less treadmill theme park rides and more helping recover secrets or saving towns.

Please tell me on this plush animal where the evil evil store mounts did hurt you.

[Nagawithlegs]

Please tell me on this plush animal where the evil evil store mounts did hurt you.

Ironically I think most of their points will be addressed in 10.0 except for the hideable store mount one. That will never ever happen.

[Kiivar86]

Ironically I think most of their points will be addressed in 10.0 except for the hideable store mount one. That will never ever happen.

That hide the mount thing reminds me of the few times I've seen some people, particularly when transmog became a thing, demand an option to toggle off everyone else's transmog.

Sorry but you'll have to deal with that.

[therumblings]

I'd love...

- Return to Azeroth, remade with the graphical standards of today.
- Return to a better MMO-friendly story, not a poor attempt at a single player campaign.
- Remove the cluster of gimmicky borrowed-power systems and focus on bettering core systems.
- Flexible level ranges with a solid stopper. E.g. 60-62 mobs start at 60 and scale up to 62.
- No more gear scaling. Stop making you feel weaker when you level. General activities in zones shouldn't be a slow dungeon-level grind.
- An option to toggle off frivolous store mounts and replace the model with a standard mount. Stop killing immersion with shitty sparkle mounts.

I'd like to see more faction and sub faction based stories spread out in various campaigns. Enough 'lost puppy' major lore characters to babysit or stories that happen with zero input from you, and instead recapture the feeling of exploring with thousands of other adventurers. Less treadmill theme park rides and more helping recover secrets or saving towns.

Why would you want to toggle store mounts instead of outright remove them? Most of them are plausible and fit in with the other wacky mounts obtainable through gameplay anyway. That last part made no sense.

[Ivarr]

Not quite as laughable as this constant "SL bad, wow dead, FFXIV at players high" without any RELIABLE evidence. And no, that 20(?) million accounts shenanigans from squeenix is NOT reliable. Also not reliable are anyone's anecdotal observations about dead wow servers. I am on a VERY small server with near to no horde population and even there are lots of people around even in non-cross realm zones.

Your entire point rests upon the fact that Blizzard doesn't disclose their active subscriber numbers, which doesn't speak in your favour.

[huth]

Your entire point rests upon the fact that Blizzard doesn't disclose their active subscriber numbers, which doesn't speak in your favour.

No, the point rests on us not actually having useable data on either one. Which is a valid point.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I mean after the last few days.... fucking yikes.

Forget World Revamps or Class Redesigns. Acti-Blizz needs to just fucking clean house before I'll touch 10.0. Kotik out, Brack out, Ion out. If they can't hold their team accountable behind the scenes, 0% chance they're going to field a team that can produce a good expansion.

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Why would you want to toggle store mounts instead of outright remove them? Most of them are plausible and fit in with the other wacky mounts obtainable through gameplay anyway. That last part made no sense.

Yeah that's a weird one. Like "toggling them off" won't stop people from buying them, or Blizz from making them.

It's like.... "it makes me feel good" was their criteria.

[Dracullus]

Please tell me on this plush animal where the evil evil store mounts did hurt you.

Funny that few years ago I often saw complain there are not loyality rewards in WoW. Now we have that + you can buy it separately + you can buy it with someone else money through gold.

Store mount approach late MoP and WoD was disgusting, they put mounts that should be rewards for reputation in store (without option to buy it with gold) and actual reputations get 15 recolors of wolf or boar.

Now you have all this options and you have TON of mount you can earn in game. Many recolors of course, but it's not like there were no recolors in the past. Just go to site like simple armory and count unique mounts for every expac, since Legion number is rapidly growing every expac.

Kotik out, Brack out, Ion out.

Brack very likely, Ion maybe (depends when this whole thing started/stopped; I don't think his position gives him many power in Blizz anyway). But why Kotick?

[Alanar]

I mean everybody can see that activity and interest in retail WoW right now is way less than it was during BfA. It's obvious everywhere, in forums, in social media and on streaming platforms. WoW during BfA never was as dead as it is right now and we just got a huge content patch. The problem is, you need the willingness to see it - and some are just lacking exactly that, they're not able to see the wood for the trees. Shadowlands after 8 months is as dead as BfA was after two years.

We had dozens of people posting in this very thread during BfA all the time. In the last weeks there passed several days were basically nobody was posting here. People just quietly left.

Idk why people are even debating about this. As I was saying which was generally speaking anyways is that everybody sees it.

It feels and looks more like people are just in dinial and I get it. But its just different compared to bfa. Realy

[TomatoBisque]

Please tell me on this plush animal where the evil evil store mounts did hurt you.

He just doesn't want people riding around on silly, absurd mounts

now excuse me, I need to go do my korthia dailies while riding on a giant disembodied hand

[Alanar]

Of course it is, you would have to got numbers from SAME trusted source comparing these two periods. I don't see big difference in game, server I play is High during periods like these and Full during launches, servers I recognize as Full are still Full. But this is just anecdotal evidence as yours.

Only hard data we know are sales numbers for pre-orders+first day for each expansion, which is stable and in BfA/SL even growing (SL probably inflated by lockdown and Christmas release). If SL did some serious damage to game, that numbers will be significantly lower than usual 3.3M. But I hear "this time servers are dead, current expac is killing WoW" every expansion last 10 years. Every time people are as sure as you now.

Of course I'm aware Blizzard show numbers that make them look the best, but we simply don't have trusted sources. SE and Bethesda do the same, they show number of accounts created. Current FF spike is noticable, but this is hyped mostly by FF rabid fanboys and WoW haters, devs are much more tone down. If "FF has more players right now" was so obvious, they would release official current number of subs, even as one time thing. Big companies simply don't miss occasions like this.

And forum and game activity are complete separate. First, every year I see more activity on discords and wowhead than forums. Second, forums always get spike in activity where some controversy happens. So far SL was very boring in this field, cause it's not revolutionary expac, it mostly repair mistakes from Legion and BfA (and often turns out medicine is worse than sickness). Just look how activity rised when todays news hit internet.



It's like, your opinion, man. Imo variety is better, right now people ask for more grounded expansion for a reason.

I was generally speaking.. you always get people like you trying to pin everything down with numbers etc. Listen I dont care about the nitpicking, its that the evidence is everywhere and everybody sees it, its not always about numbers..
Its sad and i see alot of dinial in here, which I get, but people just seem to care even less than last year. I mean I notice it with myself.. I know I wil get some lenghty detailed response, but honestly if I were you I wouldnt bother.

[Le Conceptuel]

I was generally speaking.. you always get people like you trying to pin everything down with numbers etc. Listen I dont care about the nitpicking, its that the evidence is everywhere and everybody sees it, its not always about numbers..
Its sad and i see alot of dinial in here, which I get, but people just seem to care even less than last year. I mean I notice it with myself.. I know I wil get some lenghty detailed response, but honestly if I were you I wouldnt bother.

> The evidence is everywhere!!!

“Oh cool, so you can provide evidence to back your claims easily?”

> Denial! Sad! You always get people trying to pin things down with “numbers” and “hard data” and “facts”! You have to take me at my word!!!