Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Dhrizzle]

This is the last time I'm going to repeat myself so if you're going to respond with more of the same drivel, don't reply to me again. Paid level boosts and WoW tokens are blatant p2w. You are purchasing power for a character that another player isn't getting because they are NOT paying that extra money. It's a hefty advantage and therefore makes it p2w. I'm not diluting the phrase. You're just doing mental gymnastics because you refuse to admit you're wrong about WoW being p2w.

Taking a phrase that means one thing and stretching it to cover other things dilutes the phrase. With the proper definition of p2w you know you'll be playing a game where players who pay will have an advantage over others that can not be overcome no matter how much you play. With your definition it could mean paying players have such an advantage, or it could mean they're saving an hour or so on a grind, or anything in between.

But we live in a world where people have made "literally" to literally be its own antonym, which is literally the worst thing that has ever happened, so just use whatever phrases feel good to you regardless of meaning and have a nice day o/

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Is it bad to just call it all pay 2 win? I don't see the reason to argue in semantics over what is ultimately in the end all the same when you get down to it. In wow the definition gets all over the place since the game was not designed with irl currency. You pay for convenience in Korean mmos but everyone just lumps it under pay 2 win anyway.

If you remember when p2w mechanics were first introduced (which doesn't seem that long ago, or maybe I'm just old) there was a rejection of anything that gave an unmatchable advantage to paying players while people were generally more accepting of things that just offered convenience or allowed you to skip certain grinds. The example I've given is World of Tanks, people didn't mind that you could buy a tank for money instead of grinding for it but there was a lot less acceptance of the gold ammo that was better at penetrating armour.

So yeah it's "bad" to call it all pay-2-win if you want to discern between the different sorts of MTX, and I don't really see why you wouldn't.

[Runicblood]

I'm not fucking changing shit. Most everyone in this thread agree that paying $60 for a level boost is p2w. You just refuse to see it that way because then you would have to say something negative about WoW. So you can deny that the level boost is p2w all you want but you will be wrong every single time.

I'm sorry man, but how is a character boost at all p2w? The game is all about what happens at max level. skipping through the level progress in no way "wins" you the game or gives you an upper-hand. You still need to level from 50-60, you still need to gear up, you still need to do a bunch of content.
And leveling from 1-50 only takes a few days anyways.
Your argument is totally invalid. Maybe "pay to skip useless content" is more accurate.

Shall i reference private serves that sell gear that is more overpowered than any gear available in game?

[crusadernero]

I'm sorry man, but how is a character boost at all p2w? The game is all about what happens at max level. skipping through the level progress in no way "wins" you the game or gives you an upper-hand. You still need to level from 50-60, you still need to gear up, you still need to do a bunch of content.
And leveling from 1-50 only takes a few days anyways.
Your argument is totally invalid. Maybe "pay to skip useless content" is more accurate.

Yes. Blizzard creates a less good world to play and take part in, therefore buy a boost. "Hey our content is bad, pay boost to skip it. We promise its much better at max level!"

"Hey now you are 60 but look at the hours, days, weeks you gotta spend to get gear, titles, mounts and achivs. Why not just buy these tokens and skip the work and just collect reward?".

[Runicblood]

Yes. Blizzard creates a less good world to play and take part in, therefore buy a boost. "Hey our content is bad, pay boost to skip it. We promise its much better at max level!"

"Hey now you are 60 but look at the hours, days, weeks you gotta spend to get gear, titles, mounts and achivs. Why not just buy these tokens and skip the work and just collect reward?".

And when has WoW EVER been about what takes place before max level? Maybe in vanilla, sure. But from TBC onwards, the only real content anyone cared about is the current expansion content.
I can't grasp this obsession people have about old content needing to be relevant.

And the skip is only to 50, you still need to level through the CURRENT expansion.(edit - if you are referencing tbc, yes, the skip is to 60, but you still need to level to 70. same difference.)

Another edit - I haven't played many other mmo's, but i'm pretty sure the same can be said about any of them. No one cares about leveling, people want to do endgame content.

[Skylarking]

Taking a phrase that means one thing and stretching it to cover other things dilutes the phrase. With the proper definition of p2w you know you'll be playing a game where players who pay will have an advantage over others that can not be overcome no matter how much you play. With your definition it could mean paying players have such an advantage, or it could mean they're saving an hour or so on a grind, or anything in between.

But we live in a world where people have made "literally" to literally be its own antonym, which is literally the worst thing that has ever happened, so just use whatever phrases feel good to you regardless of meaning and have a nice day o/

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If you remember when p2w mechanics were first introduced (which doesn't seem that long ago, or maybe I'm just old) there was a rejection of anything that gave an unmatchable advantage to paying players while people were generally more accepting of things that just offered convenience or allowed you to skip certain grinds. The example I've given is World of Tanks, people didn't mind that you could buy a tank for money instead of grinding for it but there was a lot less acceptance of the gold ammo that was better at penetrating armour.

So yeah it's "bad" to call it all pay-2-win if you want to discern between the different sorts of MTX, and I don't really see why you wouldn't.

Okay I understand what you mean. I assumed that these days people would usually just call it all pay 2 win with the understanding that it means pay for convenience as the actual pay 2 win practices were no longer being done anymore and obsolete.

[crusadernero]

And when has WoW EVER been about what takes place before max level? Maybe in vanilla, sure. But from TBC onwards, the only real content anyone cared about is the current expansion content.
I can't grasp this obsession people have about old content needing to be relevant.

And the skip is only to 50, you still need to level through the CURRENT expansion.(edit - if you are referencing tbc, yes, the skip is to 60, but you still need to level to 70. same difference.)

You are correct on this. But, the game has been out for 16+ years. Blizzard has known about the leveling & old world issues about just as long. They dont give any solution to this whatsoever, only bought character boosts and heirlooms.

Why cant just new characters start at newest xpac? Why cant I roll a new Tauren Druid and he starts off at SL content? We can swap between xpacs/content freely now via chromie to do old quests etc. Why cant we just start off at SL from the get go?

Its of course to make people buy boosts.

[Runicblood]

You are correct on this. But, the game has been out for 16+ years. Blizzard has known about the leveling & old world issues about just as long. They dont give any solution to this whatsoever, only bought character boosts and heirlooms.

Why cant just new characters start at newest xpac? Why cant I roll a new Tauren Druid and he starts off at SL content? We can swap between xpacs/content freely now via chromie to do old quests etc. Why cant we just start off at SL from the get go?

Its of course to make people buy boosts.

That's a pretty bold statement.

Let's assume a new player comes into wow. They are first thrown into BFA (and blast through it in a couple of days) to understand what happened immediately before the current expansion. I'll go ahead and assume that this same story telling will be done next expansion.

It's a hard call to make, i'm sure plenty of people would love to just skip to shadowlands without having to level to 50 first in old content, but can you imagine the outrage if something like that happened? I mean look at this thread and all the people that absolutely LOVE (/s) the leveling progress

[crusadernero]

That's a pretty bold statement.

Let's assume a new player comes into wow. They are first thrown into BFA (and blast through it in a couple of days) to understand what happened immediately before the current expansion. I'll go ahead and assume that this same story telling will be done next expansion.

It's a hard call to make, i'm sure plenty of people would love to just skip to shadowlands without having to level to 50 first in old content, but can you imagine the outrage if something like that happened? I mean look at this thread and all the people that absolutely LOVE (/s) the leveling progress

If I had to choose, I would rather that Blizzard gave players the option of just start off at SL content with a fresh character. Atleast people get to choose, for free.

Its a good thing(For Blizzard) that the leveling content either is irrelevant to current xpac, just boring, bad or tedious. Boost is there.

[TheRevenantHero]

I'm sorry man, but how is a character boost at all p2w? The game is all about what happens at max level. skipping through the level progress in no way "wins" you the game or gives you an upper-hand. You still need to level from 50-60, you still need to gear up, you still need to do a bunch of content.
And leveling from 1-50 only takes a few days anyways.
Your argument is totally invalid. Maybe "pay to skip useless content" is more accurate.

Shall i reference private serves that sell gear that is more overpowered than any gear available in game?

You're buying character power. Which makes it p2w. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.

[Dhrizzle]

If I had to choose, I would rather that Blizzard gave players the option of just start off at SL content with a fresh character. Atleast people get to choose, for free.

Its a good thing(For Blizzard) that the leveling content either is irrelevant to current xpac, just boring, bad or tedious. Boost is there.

Isn't there a free boost when you buy the expansion?

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You're buying character power. Which makes it p2w. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.

Because buying power isn't p2w unless it takes you beyond what people can get playing normally.

[TheRevenantHero]

Isn't there a free boost when you buy the expansion?

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Because buying power isn't p2w unless it takes you beyond what people can get playing normally.

That's not how this works. You've made it clear you are just going to perpetually do mental gymnastics to avoid admitting WoW is p2w. So just stop with the asinine mental gymnastics already.

[Runicblood]

You're buying character power. Which makes it p2w. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.

you are buying time my guy, not power. This "power" you think is being bought is immediately obsolete once you hit level 51. Which means you are not winning. Power bought at level 60, which would be more powerful than what you can obtain from progressing on your own, would make you the winner.

[TheRevenantHero]

you are buying time my guy, not power. This "power" you think is being bought is immediately obsolete once you hit level 51. Which means you are not winning. Power bought at level 60, which would be more powerful than what you can obtain from progressing on your own, would make you the winner.

You're not buying time. You're outright purchasing a higher level character. It doesn't fucking matter if you think it's obsolete. It's still power so your point is invalid.

[Runicblood]

You're not buying time. You're outright purchasing a higher level character. It doesn't fucking matter if you think it's obsolete. It's still power so your point is invalid.

okay so your definition of pay to win is pay to obtain some power. Urban dictionary says this :

"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

Is the game at all unbalanced due to the fact that you're skipping to level 50?

[Dhrizzle]

That's not how this works. You've made it clear you are just going to perpetually do mental gymnastics to avoid admitting WoW is p2w. So just stop with the asinine mental gymnastics already.

If WoW becomes p2w I'd be more than happy to call it p2w but I stretch the definition just because it makes you feel better. It's okay for you to not like the game because of the services that Blizz offer, I just don't see the point of redefining p2w to express your displeasure.

[TheRevenantHero]

okay so your definition of pay to win is pay to obtain some power. Urban dictionary says this :

"Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

Is the game at all unbalanced due to the fact that you're skipping to level 50?

P2w is when you can use real money to gain an advantage over a player NOT spending real money. Being able to skip 50 levels of content just by dropping is cash is a clear advantage over a player NOT spending that money who has to start from level 1. Just because you refuse to accept that WoW is blatantly p2w doesn't make it NOT p2w.

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If WoW becomes p2w I'd be more than happy to call it p2w but I stretch the definition just because it makes you feel better. It's okay for you to not like the game because of the services that Blizz offer, I just don't see the point of redefining p2w to express your displeasure.

I'm not redefining shit. You're just doing mental gymnastics and moving goalposts because you're incapable of admitting you're wrong.

[Runicblood]

P2w is when you can use real money to gain an advantage over a player NOT spending real money. Being able to skip 50 levels of content just by dropping is cash is a clear advantage over a player NOT spending that money who has to start from level 1. Just because you refuse to accept that WoW is blatantly p2w doesn't make it NOT p2w.

but what i'm asking you is does skipping to level 50 REALLY give you an advantage over other players? In what way does skipping a couple days of irrelevant content an indisuputable advantage

I mean what you're saying is basicly like saying that since the game is also pay to play and that there are people willing the pay 15 dollars a month have an advantage over me, who prefers paying in gold. therefor, the game is pay to win.

I would drop the whole character boost in a catagory more towards "pay to play faster" rather than pay to win.

I need to spend some hours making gold to play. The average player doesn't. so it's pay to win. GG

[TheRevenantHero]

but what i'm asking you is does skipping to level 50 REALLY give you an advantage over other players? In what way does skipping a couple days of irrelevant content an indisuputable advantage

I mean what you're saying is basicly like saying that since the game is also pay to play and that there are people willing the pay 15 dollars a month have an advantage over me, who prefers paying in gold. therefor, the game is pay to win.

I would drop the whole character boost in a catagory more towards "pay to play faster" rather than pay to win.

Do the world a favor and look up the definition of the word "advantage". Using the subscription as an example is nothing but a strawman. Whether you like it or not, the level boost is p2w.

[Runicblood]

Do the world a favor and look up the definition of the word "advantage". Using the subscription as an example is nothing but a strawman. Whether you like it or not, the level boost is p2w.

no, my subscription example is exactly what you're saying, but you're just incapable of admitting you're wrong.
People that pay 15 dollars to play the game have an advantage over me, because they spend a few hours doing other things.

So since the game is also pay to play, it's always going to be pay to win, if we go by your definitions.

[Skylarking]

P2w is when you can use real money to gain an advantage over a player NOT spending real money. Being able to skip 50 levels of content just by dropping is cash is a clear advantage over a player NOT spending that money who has to start from level 1. Just because you refuse to accept that WoW is blatantly p2w doesn't make it NOT p2w.

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I'm not redefining shit. You're just doing mental gymnastics and moving goalposts because you're incapable of admitting you're wrong.

The boost is p2w but the gear is pay for convenience I would say. Both are bad business practices and should not be encouraged. Actually the boost is probably pay for convenience too. Don't support either practice imo!