Who should be the next Warmonger?

[Zuben]

Note.
We are talking about leaving the capital defenseless.
<snip>
To give another real example. The Romans at the beginning had 6 legions. 2 who were always in the capital.

I don't think we are. Orgrimmar didn't deploy it's whole garrison. At least I don't remember reading anywhere that it did, I just know Saurfang needed time to muster an invasion force. A rule in warfare concerning defensible positions such as fortified cities is that you need considerably more manpower to overrun it than defending it. That's why siege is often preferred. SoO was a case of champions rushing the city, which was just Blizzard once again deploying rule of cool. If Warcraft was based in sound military doctrine "Siege" of Orgrimmar would've been an actual siege (in which case it couldn't have been a raid). Usually rushing a city is chosen over siege when time is of the essence, e.g. winter was often a major consideration in real world history. Had Alliance formed a siege (against Cold War principles) Orgrimmar could've probably held until the Silithus-bound forces returned, or another force from Silvermoon/Undercity/Thunder Bluffs/Suramar/Highmountain rallied to help. There's no way War of Thorns was a case of all eggs in one basket.

Without going more on DAY D. They weren't invading Germany. I was invading a random coastline that nobody cares about.

No, quite the opposite, it was the site where the western Allied forces would enter and the Germans knew it. Google "The Atlantic Wall". Germany had fortified the entire coastline facing Britain. An immense feat, but the landmass was so vast they had to focus the brunt of their defenses to where they thought the brunt of the invasion would happen, and thanks to Britain's misinformation campaign that was declared to be Calais. If I recall correctly it was Erwin Rommel himself who oversaw the operation, though he had to share his position with another less known general, who had his own opinions (Side note: Hitler liked to appoint his generals in such antagonistic positions, so that they would enter a rivalry, supposedly to increase efficiency. It didn't really work).

[geco]

I don't think we are. Orgrimmar didn't deploy it's whole garrison.

No. But Teldrazzil does. To the point that only the rookies were left to defend the capital.
The leader of the defense "Dalarin" was a soldier a while ago and she suddenly becomes the leader of the entire defense.

The Kaldorei laid all of their Eggs in Silithus. To the point that they could not make time for their troops to return.

[Darth-Piekus]

I always wondered if Orgrimmar was swarming with SI7 spies that they knew even when each orc changed their underwear how come they fell for that trick that Saurfang and Nathanos set?Weren't they trained to detect lies? How come they didn't watch the Barrens Army to give report all the time? How come the Night Elves rushed down in Silithus instead of doing a steady march with the Horde army?

[Zuben]

No. But Teldrazzil does. To the point that only the rookies were left to defend the capital.
The leader of the defense "Dalarin" was a soldier a while ago and she suddenly becomes the leader of the entire defense.

The Kaldorei laid all of their Eggs in Silithus. To the point that they could not make time for their troops to return.

Ah yeah, that's true enough.

[Feanoro]

I always wondered if Orgrimmar was swarming with SI7 spies that they knew even when each orc changed their underwear how come they fell for that trick that Saurfang and Nathanos set?Weren't they trained to detect lies? How come they didn't watch the Barrens Army to give report all the time? How come the Night Elves rushed down in Silithus instead of doing a steady march with the Horde army?

Because the Alliance has to deep throat the idiot ball so the "mighty" Horde can have their "glorious" victories.

[Zuben]

I always wondered if Orgrimmar was swarming with SI7 spies that they knew even when each orc changed their underwear how come they fell for that trick that Saurfang and Nathanos set?Weren't they trained to detect lies? How come they didn't watch the Barrens Army to give report all the time? How come the Night Elves rushed down in Silithus instead of doing a steady march with the Horde army?

I can explain the Silithus part: The night elves wanted to get there faster so that they'd have their garrison set up by the time Horde gets there. At that point the Horde commander would have two options: Attack the garrison, which effectively means starting a war, or take the army back to Orgrimmar.

As to why the SI7 agents didn't catch on the misinformation. Well, I'd rather attribute that to success on Horde's side than ineptitude on the agents' side. In real world history ruse has worked to great effect. If the army was observed up to the point they turned towards north in the Barrens, that's the point when SI7 agents would send word to Stormwind if they were on top of their job. By the time the chain of communication would lead back to Teldrassil their Ashenvale forces were already engaging the Horde and sending out their own messengers. The final party to be informed, the night elf fleet heading for Silithus, didn't have communication equipment, either of gnomish build or those magical Star Wars -holograms we saw in MoP's initial Alliance cinematic, so a poor druid newbie had to fly to the very extent of her stamina to inform them what was happening at home.

I mentioned instant messaging options like gnomish radio and the holograms. Since messengers are still used a lot in Azeroth I would surmise more effective communication is either rare or unreliable. This might need to be added to suspension of disbelief, since we are also supposed to believe swords and axes are valid weapons of choice in a world with lazor weapons, tanks, magic and portals. There's a trend of video game makers setting their games to the past, the 90's at most, just so that their plot can happen without it being tripped by current technology like smart phones. In that sense I think the writers at Blizzard would like to put the genie back in the bottle in a whole lot of cases. Sometimes I can accept it, like with War of Thorns, sometimes it's a bit harder to swallow, like the lack of Vindicaar and Jaina's Magic Boat™ in the Blood War.

[sighy]

I mentioned instant messaging options like gnomish radio and the holograms. Since messengers are still used a lot in Azeroth I would surmise more effective communication is either rare or unreliable. This might need to be added to suspension of disbelief, since we are also supposed to believe swords and axes are valid weapons of choice in a world with lazor weapons, tanks, magic and portals. There's a trend of video game makers setting their games to the past, the 90's at most, just so that their plot can happen without it being tripped by current technology like smart phones. In that sense I think the writers at Blizzard would like to put the genie back in the bottle in a whole lot of cases. Sometimes I can accept it, like with War of Thorns, sometimes it's a bit harder to swallow, like the lack of Vindicaar and Jaina's Magic Boat™ in the Blood War.

Well we know it takes about a 100 novice mages to destroy the biggest troll army since the Empire of Zul... Soft magic systems are really not good at making non-magic users relevant... like at all, when you actually think about it. (Blizz did address that to a certain extent with Paladins and DKs being spellcasting warriors, but yeah) Atm the general solution seems to be ignore it and hope audience doesn't notice it too much.

[loras]

Sending an army to Silithus with a clear intent to fight over Azerite there , and it WAS an intent, everybody knew Horde was not going to just "allow" Alliance to take it or stop grabbing it themselves. So even Anduin acknowledged that there will be armies battling each other. He was not going to continue "cold" war if Horde actually arrived to Silithus.

However the fact that nobody, not a single soul thought about using Ashenvale as a staging ground to threaten Orgrimmar and create a stalemate which WOULD HAVE prevented massive field battles... is just ridicukulous.

Horde here whinged and cries about Ashenvale being "staging ground" for Alliance to "attack orgrimmar" but it never actually happened in lore! Maybe it could have at least validated some of your assumptions.

And yes, there were no repercussions. Because they INTENDED NO REPERCUSSIONS. It was meant to be Horde's "fun for whole family genocide" holidays, you were meant to have that side tryst of burning the tree with whole populace on it and then move on as if nothing happened, being good (if misguided) sweel guys and gals.

It was your Christmas come early treat, a gift from Blizzard to you. A murderous romp without any backlash or actual heavy weighting consequences.

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Missed that entirely. So far BfA was about night elves being genocided, Alliance not caring about it and making peace and love with the Horde and accepting that it was all Big Bad Banshee and not poor wittle orcs and trolls.

And then in Shadowlands even night elves "get over it" and embrace peace.

Now... remind me please, where was that "WoW is about war" message? I think i lost it behind "renewal" being shoved down my throat.

If you've seen into the future what "renewal" and the like means in practice, then do share by all means.

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We still have to save Jaina / Baien / Tyrande / Varock Etc.
And more pj from the other faction.
I mean for example that in SW if you are Horde you do not interact with Tyrande or Shandris and only with Elune. That instead you go with Vol'jin and Browsvandi to do something just as important.

True, but let's be real here: at the time of saving them our list of creatures that weren't completely unknown / unmistakeably hostile to us was fairly sparsely populated. Add to that that we needed their info, and that we needed to thwart the jailer it was fairly clear that saving them was more a side effect than the main mission.

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BFA ended with The King of The Alliance having picnics with Horde leaders in Stormwind Park.

The smartest thing they can do is make their time in the Shadowlands completely remove them from the politics of Azeroth: All the Peace Loving characters are all stuck in the Shadowlands, so take that opportunity to have them be neutral, figures who preach peace, while Turalyon & Lorthemar, who are unapologetic but benevolent warlords, run the factions.

I was honestly confused they didn't make Alleria & Turalyon neutral when they returned: Their loyalty to the Alliance was based on homeland, when they left Lordaeron & Silvermoon were in the Alliance, but now they aren't: So why pledge allegiance to a vague concept? But that makes more sense if they thought Anduin was too neutral to be the leader of the alliance & wanted Turalyon to replace him.

Edit: If Turalyon & Alleria were going to join the alliance, they could have at least let the Horde have those Kul Tiran pirates stay in the horde: But no, they all got slaughtered.

Let's be honest here: Lordaeron is crawling with zombies and Quel'thalas had been ravaged by scourge, the legion and the partial successors in the form of the blood elves were fel-tainted addicts.

Would you return to a homeland filled with zombies or demonic crack addicts, seeing that they allied with the genocidal orcs no less?

BfA had a quite sucky ending i'll admit, but given how Sylvie was a genocidal maniac who had obviously drunk deep into powerful dark powers and released one of the most powerful entities known to Azeroth in the form of N'zoth just to add to her bloodbaths... well it makes sense that two utterly depleted factions decide at that moment "Now is not the time for more war, we have to find thus lunatic before she causes more damage.".
Which fails of course, and thus SL ensues, leaving most matters of war and peace up in the air as "death comes for the soul of your world", rendering all else fairly moot.

[VladlTutushkin]

If you've seen into the future what "renewal" and the like means in practice, then do share by all means.

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True, but let's be real here: at the time of saving them our list of creatures that weren't completely unknown / unmistakeably hostile to us was fairly sparsely populated. Add to that that we needed their info, and that we needed to thwart the jailer it was fairly clear that saving them was more a side effect than the main mission.

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Let's be honest here: Lordaeron is crawling with zombies and Quel'thalas had been ravaged by scourge, the legion and the partial successors in the form of the blood elves were fel-tainted addicts.

Would you return to a homeland filled with zombies or demonic crack addicts, seeing that they allied with the genocidal orcs no less?

BfA had a quite sucky ending i'll admit, but given how Sylvie was a genocidal maniac who had obviously drunk deep into powerful dark powers and released one of the most powerful entities known to Azeroth in the form of N'zoth just to add to her bloodbaths... well it makes sense that two utterly depleted factions decide at that moment "Now is not the time for more war, we have to find thus lunatic before she causes more damage.".
Which fails of course, and thus SL ensues, leaving most matters of war and peace up in the air as "death comes for the soul of your world", rendering all else fairly moot.

Well, Horde will likely swing by and kill more night elves because thats the only plot Blizz can write, but Tyrande will revert to her retarded pacifism thats for sure. "Best" we will get is... maybe her being a bit less friendly towards the Horde races , but only in words.

[geco]

True, but let's be real here: at the time of saving them our list of creatures that weren't completely unknown / unmistakeably hostile to us was fairly sparsely populated. Add to that that we needed their info, and that we needed to thwart the jailer it was fairly clear that saving them was more a side effect than the main mission.

Really No. Thinking only of Jaina.

If we are going to have so much effort in these 4 factions that in an expansion they do not matter at all. We can have a little more effort in the Horde and Alliance that are so important that Blizzard forces us to continue in them in all expansions.

Then you can make the urination to save Jaina and Baien a faction urination. By the way, you can make Baien do something decent in the game for once in his life.

Or else if we are obliged yes or yes to work with Jaina. Don't make Talanji accuse her of killing her father when it was the Wolf who killed him.

You can't spend an entire raid on a big "WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER WORK WITH JAINA" and then make yourself work with Jaina. One of those two things you have to remove. (Or you have to have something very big that explains why you have to work with Jaina ... that is not here)

[Ardenaso]

If we wanna be technical the Aliance of Lordaeon fell apart to bickering not too long after the second war and Tirion got kicked out of the Silver Hand, because he had shown compassion and mercy to Etrigg. Plus Argents left Scarlet Crusade, because they thought that they were too militant and extreme. So Turalyon can only really hurt his own political position by messing with them. (Not to mention that attacking the Forsaken would have been absolutely suicidal given their geographical disposition)

a bit late but maybe not still part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, but I think leading the closest remnants of the old Alliance of Lordaeron (living Lordaeronians, High Elves, Blood Elves, and Forsaken) and the New Alliance Remnants defaults him to be part of the Alliance of Lordaeron again

So Turalyon can only really hurt his own political position by messing with them. (Not to mention that attacking the Forsaken would have been absolutely suicidal given their geographical disposition)

I think the Argent Lordaeronians should just be part of the Horde at this point (not playable race ofc, just special allies like Alliance High Elves, Broken Draenei, Ogres, Taunka, etc.); the Forsaken are their brethren and the Blood Elves were their comrades from the Alliance of Lordaeron, and their queen Calia Menethil is advising Lillian Voss

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The Lich King was weakened because of something Archimonde or Kil'jaeden did before sending Illidan i believe, if you are referring to the time he was seconds away from basically destroying all of Northrend and releasing Yogg'saron xD

it started leaking when Ner'zhul thrusted the sword out of his ice, but the weakening was something that should be manageable like sending necromancers or undead mages to contain his power or sacrifice to restore him; Illidan is to give credit on greatly weakening his power and removing his grip on Sylvanas and many other undead

[sighy]

a bit late but maybe not still part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, but I think leading the closest remnants of the old Alliance of Lordaeron (living Lordaeronians, High Elves, Blood Elves, and Forsaken) and the New Alliance Remnants defaults him to be part of the Alliance of Lordaeron again I think the Argent Lordaeronians should just be part of the Horde at this point (not playable race ofc, just special allies like Alliance High Elves, Broken Draenei, Ogres, Taunka, etc.); the Forsaken are their brethren and the Blood Elves were their comrades from the Alliance of Lordaeron, and their queen Calia Menethil is advising Lillian Voss

This is a bit speculative on my part, but i REALLY don't like Calia, because she basically is a lorebreaking contradiction just from the mechanics of her current existence let alone her being a direct contradiction to the entire Forsaken identity and thematic integrity. And i still do have some hope that Blizz is enough in touch to at least recognise that and have the bulk of the Forsaken, at least keep her at an arm's length.

Argents themselves i would say are actually one of the better neutral orgs, because they are strictly nonpartial and set themselves appart by following Tirion's philosophy of compassion and temperance making them one of the few organisations universally respected and seen as good people. The probably only stand to lose their good standing and risk getting rekt by the enemy faction, if they were to pick either side. (ahem like night elves ahem)

it started leaking when Ner'zhul thrusted the sword out of his ice, but the weakening was something that should be manageable like sending necromancers or undead mages to contain his power or sacrifice to restore him; Illidan is to give credit on greatly weakening his power and removing his grip on Sylvanas and many other undead

He was growing weaker before Illidan attempted his cataclysmic Eye of Sargeras spell, while it surely didn't help the fine details of it are debatable given that the spell failed. I agree that he likely has significantly accelerated the problem tho.

[loras]

Really No. Thinking only of Jaina.

If we are going to have so much effort in these 4 factions that in an expansion they do not matter at all. We can have a little more effort in the Horde and Alliance that are so important that Blizzard forces us to continue in them in all expansions.

Then you can make the urination to save Jaina and Baien a faction urination. By the way, you can make Baien do something decent in the game for once in his life.

Or else if we are obliged yes or yes to work with Jaina. Don't make Talanji accuse her of killing her father when it was the Wolf who killed him.

You can't spend an entire raid on a big "WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER WORK WITH JAINA" and then make yourself work with Jaina. One of those two things you have to remove. (Or you have to have something very big that explains why you have to work with Jaina ... that is not here)

We were literally just sent to hell, and Jaina was one of the few things mildly less hostile to us, also we know she's a really strong fighter which we really need at that time.

You can't really get better reasons than that.

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Well, Horde will likely swing by and kill more night elves because thats the only plot Blizz can write, but Tyrande will revert to her retarded pacifism thats for sure. "Best" we will get is... maybe her being a bit less friendly towards the Horde races , but only in words.

That would indeed be bad, and it's not entirely unrealistic, but it hasn't happened.
It might happen, but until it actually does the "Tyrande peaces out." thing is just as untrue as "Tyrande resurrects the fallen and wreaks bloody vengeance on the Horde." or "Tyrande raises the fallen and the Horde timidly retreats from all night elf lands.".

[VladlTutushkin]

We were literally just sent to hell, and Jaina was one of the few things mildly less hostile to us, also we know she's a really strong fighter which we really need at that time.

You can't really get better reasons than that.

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That would indeed be bad, and it's not entirely unrealistic, but it hasn't happened.
It might happen, but until it actually does the "Tyrande peaces out." thing is just as untrue as "Tyrande resurrects the fallen and wreaks bloody vengeance on the Horde." or "Tyrande raises the fallen and the Horde timidly retreats from all night elf lands.".

Other two will never happen because Blizzard have no balls to hurt the Horde. They are afraid people will start deserting the faction if they do so. So yeah, Tyrande becoming a punching bag is most likely scenario.

[shoc]

Better the convenants replace the factions. Kyrian and Night Fae splits the Alliance in half easily and so does the Venthyr and Necrolords. After finding out the truth about the afterlife, there is no way the covenants don't become the main religions of Azeroth.

[vilememory]

It is going to be the Horde, it will always be the Horde. They will villain bat the entire council, and instead of fighting the Alliance who is no challenge at all. As well as apparently could have been beaten at any point by the Horde, they will attack the only threat to themselves. Which is the Horde, yeah it is going to be another Horde vs Horde expansion while the Alliance just sits on the side lines going 'No, don't. You should really stop this.' In the most unemotional deadpan voices possible.

[Soon-TM]

Blizzard have no balls to hurt the Horde.

Man, it's almost as if the Horde hadn't lost three warchiefs in a row, with two of them being vilified to a ridiculous extent. It isn't as if Dazar'alor or Org were never besieged, with a 2 out of 3 success (for the Alliance) ratio, with UC being a tie. The iconic position of warchief being abolished, in favour of a "council" with a large majority of Alliance sockpuppets doesn't mean anything either, I guess. Forsaken being even more Defanged™ than OMG WOE IZ MUH nelfs doesn't even register on your radar LOL.

Going by your standards, everything that isn't the utter, absolute annihilation of the Horde is evidently Horde Bias™. Guess what, it cannot happen, even if only because of gameplay reasons.

[geco]

We were literally just sent to hell, and Jaina was one of the few things mildly less hostile to us, also we know she's a really strong fighter which we really need at that time.

You can't really get better reasons than that.

We are not dogs. With that logic if Sylvanas stops attacking us then he is no longer our enemy?

Or look at it this way.
Is it logical that Tyrande begins to treat us well just because today we decided not to make a genocide with his people?

That would indeed be bad, and it's not entirely unrealistic, but it hasn't happened.
It might happen, but until it actually does the "Tyrande peaces out." thing is just as untrue as "Tyrande resurrects the fallen and wreaks bloody vengeance on the Horde." or "Tyrande raises the fallen and the Horde timidly retreats from all night elf lands.".

Hasn't it happened already in Cata-Pandaria-Legion?

[Ersula]

This is a bit speculative on my part, but i REALLY don't like Calia, because she basically is a lorebreaking contradiction just from the mechanics of her current existence let alone her being a direct contradiction to the entire Forsaken identity and thematic integrity. And i still do have some hope that Blizz is enough in touch to at least recognise that and have the bulk of the Forsaken, at least keep her at an arm's length.

I like the idea S'era raised her, & Sera was a Naaru who had fallen & become a Void Lord, then essentially "resurrected." In a way, the only "undead" Naaru. So the people she resurrected are undead. That's an interesting idea.

Problem is that doesn't make Calia herself interesting. And certainly not a character Forsaken players are going to latch on to. The big thing forsaken players had was Sylvanas, who died a noble death & became undead, then reformed Lordaeron from complete annihilation into a real kingdom again. And even after her we had Liliana. The main problem being here is that Liliana & Sylvanas have both actually done things. Calia hasn't done anything substantial & suddenly she's exerting her royal claim to the throne. Shouldn't one of the many other Dark Rangers become the leader of the Forsaken? Some have even expressed feeling abandoned by Sylvanas & they've been fighting for the Forsaken for decades: Not some random royal who everyone thoughy was dead until very recently. My take on the Forsaken is that they didn't even really care about Royal bloodlines after the King's son killed everybody. It seems like the devs are made up of people who don't understand why Forsaken fans like the Forsaken.

Plus, how is Calia supposed to asset herself against the Alliance? She might feel protective of the Forsaken but what happens when Turalyon wants to assert himself as a "son of Lordaeron" and declare "Lordaeron for the living"? Calia's New Boyfriend is Jaina's Brother. And suddenly they're supposed to be on opposite sides of a war? A truly thoughtless storyline.

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Would you return to a homeland filled with zombies or demonic crack addicts, seeing that they allied with the genocidal orcs no less?

The Alliance was literally formed to commit genocide against Trolls. It was surprising they picked a side based on racism because I thought Turalyon & Alleria were supposed to be good people. It makes sense now because blizzard finally found the right Alliance characters to be their next Warmongers.

[Soon-TM]

Is it logical that Tyrande begins to treat us well just because today we decided not to make a genocide with his people?

Almost as logical as Horde players going all cozy with Jaina Suemoore shortly after she participated in the siege on Dazar'alor and helping (even if indirectly) to kill Rastakhan.