[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I don't think they do - I think one of the weakest parts of the show was simultaneously trying to develop every single character immediately. Most of that development came at the cost of developing Rand's character (which is what most of book one is about) with Perrin somewhat on the side but gradually becoming more interesting as the seasons progress. In the book Perrin starts to get developed during the journey but they cut that part out to develop the warder, who they then killed off.

I’d agree that they don’t need to develop every one immediately but Perrin more then any one else is quite and slow for a large portion of the early books. In a book I think this works just fine but in a show it’s a lot more awkward.

If the show had like a 15 episode first season and the first 3 or so were all about the two rivers and they made sure to focus on him and how he’s always helping out and being thoughtful if not talkative id say it would be fine but I also think a fantasy show needs faster start to grab none book fans to really get a foot hold.

[mickybrighteyes]

[...] I also think a fantasy show needs faster start to grab none book fans to really get a foot hold.

this is sadly true for most series. Slow starts just don't get people, whatever the setting/ip/etc it needs a proper hook to draw people in. Shame really cause some things really do need proper build up and most people refuse to pay attention unless there's something they can grasp quickly.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

When they made Sh-ra the animated series they basically took the characters from masters of the universe, centered it around she-ra and instead of using the established materiel the author wrote their own fanfic instead.

I’m not a big he man person but I’m pretty sure that’s the whole point of She Ra and has been since she got her own show in the 80’s.



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this is sadly true for most series. Slow starts just don't get people, whatever the setting/ip/etc it needs a proper hook to draw people in. Shame really cause some things really do need proper build up and most people refuse to pay attention unless there's something they can grasp quickly.

More or less ya. I think a slower book accurate version of the show would be better in pretty much every way but I also think it would likely flop for none book readers and panned as far to slow and boring.

What we got might very well flop as well but I think the initial grab is much stronger then what we other wise would have seen.

[mickybrighteyes]

I’m not a big he man person but I’m pretty sure that’s the whole point of She Ra and has been since she got her own show in the 80’s.

The 2018 version isn't the 80's version. Noelle Stevenson's take on the ip took a turn away from the material to a point where it was more like their own fanfic given a budget.

More or less ya. I think a slower book accurate version of the show would be better in pretty much every way but I also think it would likely flop for none book readers and panned as far to slow and boring.

What we got might very well flop as well but I think the initial grab is much stronger then what we other wise would have seen.

Not sure really. they could cut a lot of fluff and fast track to the Moiraine's arrival and trolloc invasion as the main initial hype and then flash back to snippets while advancing through the wilderness and maybe pad the run time with some trolloc or show only darkfriend to hammer home an initial threat. But i feel way too many people would pass up regardless unless it took a page out of HBO's playbook for Game of Thrones and had obvious nudity... and show cased some series accurate "ageless aes sedai for no reason. Virtually any series seems to need that for a pilot for some reason, even trash cop drama variations.

[Surfd]

No one is speaking of a "proper" adaptation here.

Not sure what conversation you have been following for the last several dozens of pages of discussion, but yes, that's literally what we have been discussing here. The fact that this is a fucking awful "adaptation" of the source material. Like, that's basically the core element of our grievance here.........

But it is still recognizable as Wheel of Time by the elements it does reuse, right? Just like a Romeo and Juliet that uses convertibles and guns is still recognizable even though setting, characters, and other stuff is changed.

Except that it's not, because Wheel of Time is FAR more complicated and nuanced than just boiling it down to "Magic Woman grabs Country Boys who might be savior of the world and takes them on adventure to fight the forces of evil". Especially when they even managed to fuck THAT up, since the 3 Boys are supposed to be the focus of the first book. Instead, we got 8 episodes of the Moraine and girls show.....

We wanted an adaptation of the series that stays true to the books, the Wheel TV series is not that.

It stops being recognizable as Wheel of Time when they fuck with the characters. Like, they have made changes to core elements of multiple characters to the point where they aren't even recognizable as their book counterparts.
It stops being recognizable as Wheel of Time when they make major changes to the fundamental lore that makes up the world (literally too many changes to even list).
It stops being recognizable as Wheel of Time when they completely alter major plot events for absolutely no good reason (again, almost too many to list).
When they have made so many changes to shit that the only reason it is actually recognizable as Wheel of Time is because they kept the names of the characters and the Title of the source, you can't really claim that it is a good adaptation.

I get that this seems to be confusing for you, but nobody wanted Rafe to "adapt it into something new". We wanted it adapted faithfully for TV. And we are pissed that it was hyped in the run up something that was going to be a "faithful" adaptation, and then the result we got was not.

[Coniferous]

Not sure what conversation you have been following for the last several dozens of pages of discussion, but yes, that's literally what we have been discussing here. The fact that this is a fucking awful "adaptation" of the source material. Like, that's basically the core element of our grievance here.........


Except that it's not, because Wheel of Time is FAR more complicated and nuanced than just boiling it down to "Magic Woman grabs Country Boys who might be savior of the world and takes them on adventure to fight the forces of evil". Especially when they even managed to fuck THAT up, since the 3 Boys are supposed to be the focus of the first book. Instead, we got 8 episodes of the Moraine and girls show.....

We wanted an adaptation of the series that stays true to the books, the Wheel TV series is not that.

It stops being recognizable as Wheel of Time when they fuck with the characters. Like, they have made changes to core elements of multiple characters to the point where they aren't even recognizable as their book counterparts.
It stops being recognizable as Wheel of Time when they make major changes to the fundamental lore that makes up the world (literally too many changes to even list).
It stops being recognizable as Wheel of Time when they completely alter major plot events for absolutely no good reason (again, almost too many to list).
When they have made so many changes to shit that the only reason it is actually recognizable as Wheel of Time is because they kept the names of the characters and the Title of the source, you can't really claim that it is a good adaptation.

I get that this seems to be confusing for you, but nobody wanted Rafe to "adapt it into something new". We wanted it adapted faithfully for TV. And we are pissed that it was hyped in the run up something that was going to be a "faithful" adaptation, and then the result we got was not.

Agreed. Wanting Rafe to adapt it to something new requires believing that a relatively obscure tv writer can improve on one of the top 5 fantasy series of all time. It's actually a higher bar than that - adapting it to something new requires that the "new" version is enough better than the old version that it overcomes resistance from the fans of the series. That's just a bad bet.

No one is arguing that the show has to be exactly like the books - but the nature of the characters is totally different. About the biggest change the LOTR made was to increase the role of the Elves by adding them to the Helm's Deep battle, which did violate the spirit of the books (the elves are done, it's up to the men), but really wasn't a huge deal because the Elves are a minor part of the story. WoT has changed the nature of the Dragon, the central character in the entire series, with Moiraine strongly considering killing him... an equivalent change in LOTR would be Gandalf trying to kill Frodo when the one ring starts to have too much influence.

[jdbond]

Just curious what are some plot holes you noticed? The only thing I can think of is nynaeve finding lann after days of horde back which made no sense.

One example: How did Padan Fain get out of way or enter in first place? THINK VERY HARD!

Entire show is littered with such nonsense. Ofcourse this is only if you care for "logic".

[Osperand]

As someone who had not read any of the series i thought the Show was excellent, thoroughly enjoyed it and cannot wait for the next season. I have bought the first 5 books in the series to read while waiting. It is rare that TV shows ever stick to the original books (even GoT plot did not stick to books script) so it was refreshing to watch without any prior knowledge. I get how fans of a book series can be frustrated at changes to something they love (and sometimes the changes seem to make less sense).

I would say watch the TV show first then read the books if you can.

[Shadowferal]

It is rare that TV shows ever stick to the original books (even GoT plot did not stick to books script) so it was refreshing to watch without any prior knowledge.

Regarding GoT, They did stick to the books...for the most part. And they focused on characterization first and foremost for the first several seasons. They really had to since they wanted you to feel it when they started killing them off. The show went off the rails only when they ran out of book material..

As opposed to this...Rafe's reinvention of the Wheel of Time... Since season 8, they've dropped the word "adaptation" and now used "based upon" The utter lack of characterization means no one gives a shit about any of the characters...no one remembers "Laila" (hell, "Perrin clearly forgot all about her...), and no one cares that Loial "might" have died. (Stabbed with that dagger he should have died almost instantly.) And there's zero tension regarding death anyway since op Nynaeve can resurrect people. (Which is impossible in the books) Rand has some very important arcs in the first book that gets zero attention...Caemlyn, Elayne, Elaida...his first face off against the White Cloaks...nada.

I get how fans of a book series can be frustrated at changes to something they love (and sometimes the changes seem to make less sense).
I would say watch the TV show first then read the books if you can.

Never donate time to lost causes. If you're a serious reader then you'll find out how much was changed and how important scenes were taken out in favor of idiotic scenes that do absolutely nothing...all the big scenes...that hit emotionally like a sledgehammer, won't make it in this silly parody

Don't be surprised when this show gets cancelled this year.

[rhorle]

Not sure what conversation you have been following for the last several dozens of pages of discussion, but yes, that's literally what we have been discussing here. The fact that this is a fucking awful "adaptation" of the source material. Like, that's basically the core element of our grievance here.........

But you said a non-faithful R&J is acceptable. Which means that a non-faithful WoT should be acceptable for the same reasons. So the discussion wasn't about proper adaptation at all despite you shifting the goalposts there now. It was about your specific comments on a certain topic and not arguments you made days and pages ago.

If you can't recognize any part of Wheel of Time from the show then you are either being dishonest or have never actually read the books. Because even as a non-faithful adaptation I can recognize a fair bit.

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If they didn't explicitly state this was an adaptation and use the exact same names and terminology I wouldn't be so quick to link the two.

This is clearly exaggeration. If you wouldn't still recognize the White tower, Ajahs, Sisters, One power, False Dragons, City names, etc then you weren't much of a fan of Wheel of Time prior to that would enable you to recognize those things in the first place. It isn't a faithful adaptation but it isn't 100% new that just uses the name Wheel of Time as a title and nothing else.

[jdbond]

I loled at so many scenes. You literally end up saying WTF with so many scenes. I mean look at WC scenes. Nevermind the silliness of "burning of an Aes Sedai" to let everyone know, these "men" are evil, we see our team meet them on road. One splinter grp (you might get confused about hierarchy the way Valda was talking) decides to go "somewhere else". Show refuses to establish a "world". There is some town, and there is Tar Valon. And there is time. This is some great show.

So our "heroes" take all the time to reach Tar Valon and lo behold, 3 feet from TV, we meet same splinter grp. Did they come to attack WT? Nevermind. So they randomly charge a tinker caravan because that is normal for evil "men". And then EVIL No. 1 sees these 2 people he has seen before and he knew he caught a woman who can channel!

You might shake in disbelief with ridiculousness of this scene. Or you might call it "excellent". We know WC are crazy and call everyone DF but what made Valda target these two? Did he sniff something on Moiraine? And what made him think Egwene can channel? Some "new turning of wheel" super channeling smell?

And this was not the worse part! Valda demanded Egwene channel to prove she was "EVIL". First, was Valda sure or not she could channel? And if he was, why the display? Did he also make the Aes Sedai at start channel? For show?

And the best comes here! He didn't once consider that a channeler can kill him! Imagine how weak these channelers must be! Or Valda is a super mutant!

And if you laughed there, you would cry realizing only few episodes later same Egwene healed "stilling" or "death" or whatever through power of love! Not there, ofcourse. She didn't love Perrin enough you see!

But as some people said, SHOW WAS EXCELLENT!

[Lorgar Aurelian]

One example: How did Padan Fain get out of way or enter in first place? THINK VERY HARD!

Entire show is littered with such nonsense. Ofcourse this is only if you care for "logic".

I could be wrong but I believe it’s the Myrddraal opening the ways and he’s shown traveling with them as a dark friend.

[jdbond]

I could be wrong but I believe it’s the Myrddraal opening the ways and he’s shown traveling with them as a dark friend.

He came out alone. We saw it. And Myrrdral can't channel either. It was not a problem in book. Just needed a leaf of right kind. But show "creators" are too smart for us people.

[Shadowferal]

Okay on the tell thing Moiraine having a tell that Lan hasn't noticed in 20 years and Nynaeve noticed in less than a week kind of makes him seem super incompetent doesn't it? Stop making excuses for terrible writing.

She is a woman of a 'certain age' and feels the needs to 'mark her territory' as she goes. Thank the Light for that blessed Ter'angreal -the She-wee
~~Lethira the second from Dragonmount

[rhorle]

He came out alone. We saw it. And Myrrdral can't channel either. It was not a problem in book. Just needed a leaf of right kind. But show "creators" are too smart for us people.

Didn't Moirane, in the books, "destroy" the barrier of the gate (near Fal Dara) because it was locked (no leaf on the inside) and there was no way for the group to exit the ways? The show didn't change that much from that specific scene/events.

[Mazza]

It is the same story, the main things play out in a similar way its just the route is different.

A really big part of the story IS the route. And to be clear I don't just mean the physical road the characters travel. I don't really have an issue with certan important events happening in a different place or condensing places, they only had 8 episodes after all. I also mean character development, motivation, focus. Most characters are not even close to the way they are in the books, so that makes for a very different story playing out.

I already said that if you look at the show on it's own I would give it a 5 or a 6... a tad lower than the average, but still watchable. I can not in good faith consider this an adaptation though. You have not provided any argument that swayed my mind, so I guess we are just disagreeing on that.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

He came out alone. We saw it. And Myrrdral can't channel either. It was not a problem in book. Just needed a leaf of right kind. But show "creators" are too smart for us people.

even if he came out alone he could have Myrddraal open the portal while moving troops through the ways to drop him off.

[jdbond]

Why did Moiraine leave Lan behind? Just think about it! Give your best shot!

Please nothing stupid like she was trying to save his life or she believed Lan would tell Nene!

Worse part? WHY DOES LAN NOT KNOW WHERE EYE OF THE WORLD IS! He is from Malkier! Eye of the world in this show is the place that was "used" to trap DO. How does Moiraine know the place and Lan doesn't? Nevermind, Lan in show is useless. Unlike super Nene.

And I still don't get as to why they went to Eye of the World?

Remember, first line of the show? "Arrogant men tried to cage the darkness and failed".
Moriaine further tries to explain that Eye of the World was the place they used as bait (cause DO is a guy who can be baited) but they failed! So why would they find DO there? And then Moiraine says to "DO" that Eye of World was keeping him chained! WHAT! So did LTT fail or not? Failed how?

This show will melt your brain. But as someone said, I LOVED IT

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even if he came out alone he could have Myrddraal open the portal while moving troops through the ways to drop him off.

So do you argue just for the sake of it? I just said that a Myrrdral can't channel. Where did you see a Myrrdral channel?

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Didn't Moirane, in the books, "destroy" the barrier of the gate (near Fal Dara) because it was locked (no leaf on the inside) and there was no way for the group to exit the ways? The show didn't change that much from that specific scene/events.

Book doesn't show where Fain exited the Ways. Show did. But as you said, no change at all. How did he get in?

[Shadowferal]

Q: Why can't Shadowspawn pass through gateways?
RJ: It's because they're artificial constructs. They can't tolerate the passage.

Q: So would a Nym have the same problem?
RJ: Yes.
----
Curious note..an exception were the gholam since they resist the One Power...

[rhorle]

Book doesn't show where Fain exited the Ways. Show did. But as you said, no change at all. How did he get in?

He was following them through the ways in the books. There are no other waygates nearby that would allow him to be arrested in Fal Dara. I said the show didn't change that much from the scene/events depicted in the books. That is a big difference from no changes.