Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Edge-]

Leftists/right wingers: Everything hasn't worked out perfect for everyone yet so far. It's the system, we need a revolution.

Yes, challenging the current corrupted authorities is usually the method with which people improve their conditions. Because usually corrupt authorities aren't terribly inclined to give up power freely just because you ask politely and have a convincing argument.

Yes but that improvement has actually been happening since around 100,000 BCE, but it became supercharged shortly after the 16th century.

"Things are always improving, so why are you complaining?! I mean, sure you may be starving now but imagine how much more starving you'd be if we hadn't been progressing as a people for over a hundred thousand years! Are you still hungry now?!"

If that's true then why has starvation plummeted over time?

Why is their widespread food insecurity in the wealthiest and most powerful nation in the world?

[Calfredd]

SNIP

I preferred when you were PrimaryColor as you were at least more honest in the past. And what a colorful history it was.

[Santti]

The faux enlightened middle benefits from the status quo.

Did you just accuse PC2 being someone who's in the middle? I don't think the Overton Window is quite that skewed.

[jonnysensible]

If that's true then why has starvation plummeted over time?

you do understand that this isnt comforting to someone who is currently in poverty or on the breadline right?

[unfilteredJW]

Did you just accuse PC2 being someone who's in the middle? I don't think the Overton Window is quite that skewed.

Writing faux twice would look dumb.

[PC2]

I preferred when you were PrimaryColor as you were at least more honest in the past. And what a colorful history it was.

And? I wasn't born with the world's data in my head so I didn't automatically know the answer. That's why I started asking other people and started finding internet sites with a massive amount of statistical information.

That's what the internet is for.

[unfilteredJW]

And? I wasn't born with the world's data in my head so I didn't automatically know the answer. That's why I started asking other people and started finding internet sites with a massive amount of statistical information.

That's what the internet is for.

What a waste of that time that turned out to be.

[PC2]

What a waste of that time that turned out to be.

What is or was a waste of time? Getting information on the internet or discussing issues on a forum isn't a waste of time, imo. Also, how is this relevant to Russia and their neighbors and geopolitics?

[unfilteredJW]

What is or was a waste of time? Getting information on the internet or discussing issues on a forum isn't a waste of time, imo. Also, how is this relevant to Russia and their neighbors and geopolitics?

It's important for people to know that what you say can be summarily dismissed based on your posting history, which consist of science illiteracy, climate change denialism, and a general warped understanding of things.

Hence my comment.

[PC2]

It's important for people to know that what you say can be summarily dismissed based on your posting history, which consist of science illiteracy, climate change denialism, and a general warped understanding of things.

Hence my comment.

No not really. That's not important and I'll tell you why. Which socio-economic-political theories and explanations are correct has virtually nothing to do with me or you or posting history. Which theory is true is independent of any given person or history.

[Ashnazg]

When in doubt, go whataboutist

The reason why a lot of Russophiles constantly resort to whataboutitsm is that it seems odd to be holding Russia to a higher standard than United States given than US, not Russia, wants to be the world leader, world policeman, and world's moral compass.

[Crispin]

The reason why a lot of Russophiles constantly resort to whataboutitsm is that it seems odd to be holding Russia to a higher standard than United States given than US, not Russia, wants to be the world leader, world policeman, and world's moral compass.

Going through a "NO YOU!", "NO YOU!", "NO YOU!", "NO YOU!" argument is utterly pointless.

Discussing issues in other countries in the world, is defintaley relevant. But this isnt the "What if the US launches a full scale invasion of Iraq in December" thread, so arguing what the Americans do, is irrelevant.

No country is perfect, but that doesnt mean that Russia, the United states, China or Switzerland wont be scrutinized for who or what they invade. When the reply is "weeeelll you fucked up once aswell, so we can do whatever we like! so stfu", it's clear that there's no real argument for what they've done or plan to do.


Like Russia and Ukraine. Invading Ukraine will have the opposite effect of what Russia wants. NATO troops will multiply in NATO countries neighbouring Russia, suddenly Sweden and Finland will have very good arguments for joining NATO, and Russia can't dictate what independent countries do. In the end tho, it's likely that Putin wont mind the "external threat", because it'll keep internal issues at bay, and he might be back at the "I'll save you all from the big bad NATO boggieman, who's just waiting to invade our country of drunks and people who cant drive (as proven on youtube)"

[Shalcker]

Going through a "NO YOU!", "NO YOU!", "NO YOU!", "NO YOU!" argument is utterly pointless.

Discussing issues in other countries in the world, is defintaley relevant. But this isnt the "What if the US launches a full scale invasion of Iraq in December" thread, so arguing what the Americans do, is irrelevant.

How would you even begin to untangle existing knots without acknowledging that world mirrors US approaches when they have local power to do so? (and in many cases such local power grows over time)

Like Russia and Ukraine. Invading Ukraine will have the opposite effect of what Russia wants. NATO troops will multiply in NATO countries neighbouring Russia, suddenly Sweden and Finland will have very good arguments for joining NATO, and Russia can't dictate what independent countries do. In the end tho, it's likely that Putin wont mind the "external threat", because it'll keep internal issues at bay, and he might be back at the "I'll save you all from the big bad NATO boggieman, who's just waiting to invade our country of drunks and people who cant drive (as proven on youtube)"

You seem to be saying "Putin will not get what he says he wants but he will get what he obviously can use to keep power instead".

So, in your view Putin asking concessions would be win-win no matter the outcome, and he can still invade if situation will call for it too.

[Biglog]

It sounds like the diplomatic side of this is about at it's end one way or another with the discussions happening this week, and the outcome is looking ominous. It is tough to see them coming to an agreement on the core issues. Russia before the discussions started over the weekend told the US that this is the final talk on this issue and pre-emptively ruled out any Russian concessions.

Additionally, in another foreboding sign there was the mysterious cut of one of the only 2 deep sea communication lines to Svalbard recently. With the timing, it's extremely likely that this was one of those covert acts to send a warning 'shot across the bow' right before the meetings since Svalbard is often an area of contention between NATO and Russia. And only a few countries have the subsea ability to cut/tap into lines at 2500m.

The core issue still remains which is that Putin laments the loss of the USSR borders and buffer area with NATO. It is understandable and I hope diplomats on the Western side also understand the concern about a neighboring NATO country potentially with missiles that can reach Moscow in 5 minutes. The big stumbling block currently is the US/NATO insistence that it is a sovereign decision and they can't tell Ukraine to be or not be in NATO. It's kind of a flimsy argument though since NATO could simply refuse admission. And comparing to the Cuban Missile Crisis which has a lot of parallels (even though there are no NATO missiles in Ukraine yet), it would be as though Khrushchev told Kennedy that Russia can't do anything about Cuba because they are sovereign, complain to Cuba if you don't like having nukes on your doorstep. I'm not sure that would have ended well in 1962. So hopefully there is diplomatic movement by either/both sides this week in the last-chance discussions.

[Shadowferal]

Seems the thread title is a bit...wrong.
Or perhaps better to say that "the jury is still put."

[Easo]

USA and Russia are holding talks about Ukraine in Geneva right now.
I expect absolutely nothing to come out of it.

As for Kazakhstan - lots of bullshit, "It was a coup attempt", they found one "foreign terrorist" which ended with diplomatic row with Kyrgyzstan because said terrorist actually turns out to be a popular musician - whom the brave police beat up to force "confession" and now had to release.
Of course president Tokayev still cannot explain for shit from where those "20k bandits/terrorists/foreign agents/orange aliens" came from, how they managed to organise or, well, actually show any reasonable proof at all, or even how he counted them already yet couldn't find before this all went down...
Total shitshow, all in all.

Lot's of WTF

No, I am not going to answer to your post. Just no.

[Yadryonych]

Seems the thread title is a bit...wrong.
Or perhaps better to say that "the jury is still put."

No, it's more like "There is plenty of decembers ahead us, this will happen I tellz ya"

[Shalcker]

No, it's more like "There is plenty of decembers ahead us, this will happen I tellz ya"

You could also remove "in December" and have it as ever-green megathread.

[PC2]

As for Kazakhstan - lots of bullshit, "It was a coup attempt",

People just like to use hyperbolic language, it's the same with January the 6th.

they found one "foreign terrorist" which ended with diplomatic row with Kyrgyzstan because said terrorist actually turns out to be a popular musician - whom the brave police beat up to force "confession" and now had to release.
Of course president Tokayev still cannot explain for shit from where those "20k bandits/terrorists/foreign agents/orange aliens" came from, how they managed to organise or, well, actually show any reasonable proof at all, or even how he counted them already yet couldn't find before this all went down...
Total shitshow, all in all.

It's not about how many terrorists they found, it's about how many exist. Over a hundred people would not have been killed if this was a peaceful movement.

[Easo]

No, it's more like "There is plenty of decembers ahead us, this will happen I tellz ya"

You could also remove "in December" and have it as ever-green megathread.

Blah blah. The equipment and troops are still there and havent been moved anywhere.

It's not about how many terrorists they found, it's about how many exist. Over a hundred people would not have been killed if this was a peaceful movement.

I am naively waiting for the day when people will look into history of protests and humans going too far.