Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[DarkTZeratul]

Do you care if you got voting rights and saved millions from abject poverty doing this? I don't but I assume you do.

You seem to assume I think Biden is in any way capable of motivating Manchin or Sinema to do fuck all, which he isn't. Sinema can't be moved because she's convinced everything she's doing will give her the bipartisan cred she needs to propel her into the presidency, and Manchin will only be persuaded to do anything if his wealthy donors agree, which they don't because he's basically Republican lite. It's just that Republican lite is the only kind of Democrat that can get elected in highly conservative West Virginia. He's useful only insofar as we get Senate Majority Leader Schumer instead of Senate Majority Leader McConnnell and shouldn't be counted on for anything beyond that. Beyond that, just in general the idea that the president in any way has leverage to force the Senate to do anything is horseshit; the system is designed to give Congress the power to enforce their will on the president, not the other around.

Voting rights certainly are critically important, but the reality is that the Democrats only just barely have a majority solely by virtue of being able to break ties in their favor. Any meaningful legislation would require bringing Republicans on board (which will never happen, because they see politics as a zero-sum game where the other side winning means they lose).

[Draco-Onis]

You seem to assume I think Biden is in any way capable of motivating Manchin or Sinema to do fuck all, which he isn't.

But he really hasn't tried when civil rights leaders were meeting with Manchin early in his presidency Biden pressured them not to push Joe Manchin. He has also been very careful rebuking either of them maybe as some believe Biden is doing everything he can behind the scene but considering he barely talked about voting rights until now it seems unlikely. Most of the progressive issues Biden addresses are done half heartily he is virtue signaling and he hasn't done the things he can via executive orders.

If he doesn't bother implementing major progressive policies via executive order why should we believe he is putting any pressure on Sinema or Manchin? also the bipartisan infrastructure bill the only leverage progressives had he put pressure on them to do Manchin's will. Biden is the one crashing his approval rating he keeps pissing on the base and calling it rain.

[unfilteredJW]

But he really hasn't tried when civil rights leaders were meeting with Manchin early in his presidency Biden pressured them not to push Joe Manchin. He has also been very careful rebuking either of them maybe as some believe Biden is doing everything he can behind the scene but considering he barely talked about voting rights until now it seems unlikely. Most of the progressive issues Biden addresses are done half heartily he is virtue signaling and he hasn't done the things he can via executive orders.

If he doesn't bother implementing major progressive policies via executive order why should we believe he is putting any pressure on Sinema or Manchin? also the bipartisan infrastructure bill the only leverage progressives had he put pressure on them to do Manchin's will. Biden is the one crashing his approval rating he keeps pissing on the base and calling it rain.

As a progressive, they are not the Democrat base.

[DingDongKing]

If there's cause to think criminal activity happened, she should be investigated regardless. Using it as leverage to force compliance is corruption any way you slice it.

Everyone is corrupt. So I'm unsure what your point is.

[Draco-Onis]

Everyone is corrupt. So I'm unsure what your point is.

I don't know what you are talking about it's all sunshine and rainbows, Nancy Pelosi out performed the biggest investments firms and the market through sheer luck. There is no other funny business going on like prominent democrats being in someone who owned an island's certain black book no sir /s

[DarkTZeratul]

Everyone is corrupt. So I'm unsure what your point is.

That arguing FOR government officials to engage in blatant corruption is a bad thing regardless.

[BlackDruid96]

And yet, you support this guy...

https://www.c-span.org/presidentsurv.../?page=overall

I mean, Biden would have to work damn hard to be worse than him.

I support whom?

[Machismo]

I support whom?

Oh, are we pretending things, now?

[DingDongKing]

That arguing FOR government officials to engage in blatant corruption is a bad thing regardless.

Lol, when you get to a zero corruption system, you let me know. Until then, you leverage it the best way possible and to the benefit of the people.

[tehdang]

Furthermore, he can quite easily put pressure on people like Manchin if he so desired. The man has a daughter who can be investigated by the AG tomorrow, and somehow he's behaving like someone who has no pressure on him at all? Biden's just too weak to do anything.

You seriously think "do what I say or I'll have your family criminally investigated" is a standard by which the president should operate? What the fuck is wrong with you?

I'll also remind you that "the president should pressure congress to execute his will" is precisely backwards from what the founders built and how they structured the system as a result, which is that congress has all the power to tell the president no.

I saw this kind of dialogue going on from prominent people right before the filibuster rules vote in the Senate.

Lol, when you get to a zero corruption system, you let me know. Until then, you leverage it the best way possible and to the benefit of the people.

The basic mistake is assuming an increase of corruption by abusing the system is justified because you're using it for good, and corruption is present from others prior to the new use of it.

The only legitimate pressure on Manchin, and it is minor, is that he'll be sidelined within in the Democratic Senate in negotiating legislature, he will face well-funded opposition on the primary campaign 2024 and not be candidate for the office, and his legacy will be ruined. For the first, Democrats absolutely need his vote on any legislation he had no part in drafting, so he'll find his influence anyways. For the second, West Virginia may be a lost Senate seat in 2024 if not for a moderate Democrat with a history of not bending to the more radical wing of his party. The national party may be willing to cut off their nose to spite the face, but WV Democrats and centrists may not. For the third, he represents a very Republican-leaning state in the union, and his legacy will be dependent on WV anyways. He should be confident that charting his own path towards compromise, when possible, and the center road is his only play for being remembered fondly at home.

Roundup:
https://twitter.com/pkcapitol/status...33115944566784
Cook Political report shows headwinds for the Senate fight in 2024. Dems will be defending 23 seats, GOP 10. 13% from states Trump won, 35% from states Biden won by less than five percentage points.
2022, for contrast. The easiest targets for Republicans are AZ, GA, and NV. Kelly and Cortez Masto ran as moderates, but have rubber stamped everything from their partisan side. NC, PA, and WI are hardest holds for Republicans.

Biden approval rating has dropped to it's lowest since becoming president. The Hill. His major legislation failed, inflation hit record highs, and his foreign policy leadership from Afghanistan to Russia is questionable. He ran on shutting down the virus, not the country, but the omicron variant spread, worker shortages in hospitals, and lasting restrictive regulations made that campaign promise seem foolhardy in retrospect. Last November, he sat at 45% approval, and now he sits at 39%.

[Draco-Onis]

The basic mistake is assuming an increase of corruption by abusing the system is justified because you're using it for good, and corruption is present from others prior to the new use of it.

And that's why you supported the most blatantly corrupt president in American history, you prefer your corruption dirty and fascist.

Biden approval rating has dropped to it's lowest since becoming president

It's amazing watching people who spent 4 years not believing in polls shouting them from the rooftops.

[Endus]

Lol, when you get to a zero corruption system, you let me know. Until then, you leverage it the best way possible and to the benefit of the people.

This is just a pro-corruption take.

Criminalize and prosecute all corruption. You may never drive it down to zero, but you can drive it underground and prosecute offenders harshly enough it's not generally worth the risks.

If you're saying "leverage it for your own political games", then what you're saying is that you don't have any issue with how corrupt your opponents may be, you only care that their goals don't line up with yours.

- - - Updated - - -

It's amazing watching people who spent 4 years not believing in polls shouting them from the rooftops.

Same reason they think Biden stole the election, but all the Republican members of Congress and Senate elected on the same ballots, oh no, those are definitely legit.

It's just standard doublethink.

[DingDongKing]

This is just a pro-corruption take.

Criminalize and prosecute all corruption. You may never drive it down to zero, but you can drive it underground and prosecute offenders harshly enough it's not generally worth the risks.

If you're saying "leverage it for your own political games", then what you're saying is that you don't have any issue with how corrupt your opponents may be, you only care that their goals don't line up with yours.

- - - Updated - - -



Same reason they think Biden stole the election, but all the Republican members of Congress and Senate elected on the same ballots, oh no, those are definitely legit.

It's just standard doublethink.

I would LOVE for corruption to be stamped out. But it won’t happen; so at that point you bend the rules as best as you can. Reminding Manchin that his daughter is a criminal who could be prosecuted at any minute isn’t corruption; it’s a reality check.

[Endus]

I would LOVE for corruption to be stamped out. But it won’t happen; so at that point you bend the rules as best as you can. Reminding Manchin that his daughter is a criminal who could be prosecuted at any minute isn’t corruption; it’s a reality check.

Admitting you're as corrupt as those you're opposing doesn't leave you a lot of room for trying to limit their corruption.

It just becomes a race to the bottom, at that point, since ethics no longer matter, and I have to wonder why you think you're the "good guys" in that kind of situation.

[DingDongKing]

Admitting you're as corrupt as those you're opposing doesn't leave you a lot of room for trying to limit their corruption.

It just becomes a race to the bottom, at that point, since ethics no longer matter, and I have to wonder why you think you're the "good guys" in that kind of situation.

I guess I’m just realistic about the likelihood of corruption being wiped out. If you can live with it and still get things done, then sorted. Corruption being eliminated needs generational change.

[DarkTZeratul]

I guess I’m just realistic about the likelihood of corruption being wiped out. If you can live with it and still get things done, then sorted. Corruption being eliminated needs generational change.

There's a difference between accepting that there's corruption and dealing with that, and advocating for your side to actively engage in it.

[DingDongKing]

There's a difference between accepting that there's corruption and dealing with that, and advocating for your side to actively engage in it.

Again, wish it didn't exist. But it does. And it's not going away. So I'm okay with figuring out how to weaponise to actually benefit democracy.

[DarkTZeratul]

Again, wish it didn't exist. But it does. And it's not going away. So I'm okay with figuring out how to weaponise to actually benefit democracy.

In other words:

If you're saying "leverage it for your own political games", then what you're saying is that you don't have any issue with how corrupt your opponents may be, you only care that their goals don't line up with yours.

[DingDongKing]

In other words:

It's not 'my goals'. It's the goals of the people. If the people win, why do I care?

Manchin's kids are dirty, so implying they ought to be investigated is the right thing.



Jump to 2:32. Takes the keys off my keyboard.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

if you could replace Biden and Kamala with any democrat candidates who would they be?