Biden / Harris Focused Discussion

[Ripster42]

It is what you said. Actually, I was overly generous, since you directly suggested anyone having an issue with Manchin was a secret 5th column Republican agent working to undercut their opponents.

And frankly; if the choices are a slow-but-inevitable drift rightwards into fascism, or a chance that will likely fail to bring about leftist reform, I'll take the latter option every time. Because failure on that option just leads to the same outcome as the other, anyway.

If the country can't be dragged out of this hole, then efforts trying to keep it from falling in are literally wasted effort and the focus should be redirected. Trying to make sure you keep circling the drain longer but not trying to get out of the sink itself is defeatist, inherently.

Na, you're lying. I said it's impossible to distinguish between someone who's a true believer who has a really bad take, and a 5th columnist.

[Endus]

Na, you're lying. I said it's impossible to distinguish between someone who's a true believer who has a really bad take, and a 5th columnist.

So, basically what I said you said. Where's the lie? At best, you were suggesting they were unaware they were working for Republicans.

It's quite possible that Democrats can't win back the Senate. Like, literally not ever gonna happen. And if that's the case, then the elections are effectively meaningless. Manchin is meaningless. Because Manchin just helps you keep circling the drain. He doesn't do anything to help pull America out of the death spiral to fascism.

That doesn't mean kick him out, it means planning to render him obsolete and irrelevant. And if there's no path to achieving that, then the game's already lost and focusing on elections is a distraction from the reality of US collapse. I'm not saying there isn't such a path, I'm calling into your question that Manchin is somehow some kind of lynchpin who's absolutely required. If that's truly the case, it's already over.

You've tried center-right neoliberal milquetoast "stay the course" bullshit. Twice now, with Clinton and Biden, and Biden only won because Trump was completely asinine and it freaked out the electorate. But simultaneously fired up his own base.

Hence the suggestion of trying to wake up the electorate by actually appealing to actual left-wing interests, for once. Which the Democrats simply haven't done. Like, ever. What you've been doing hasn't been working, the leadership you've been picking hasn't been correcting the direction the US is going. Trying something new might fail, but the consequence of failure is just the path you're already choosing.

[Ivanstone]

It's quite possible that Democrats can't win back the Senate. Like, literally not ever gonna happen. And if that's the case, then the elections are effectively meaningless. Manchin is meaningless. Because Manchin just helps you keep circling the drain. He doesn't do anything to help pull America out of the death spiral to fascism.

He confirms liberal judges and liberal cabinet posts. Its not much but its better than almost any Republican would do.

[Endus]

He confirms liberal judges and liberal cabinet posts. Its not much but its better than almost any Republican would do.

I'm not actually saying he should be kicked out by Democrats, or something. I'm saying you can't design the party around that one man and abandon the entire left-wing voter base of the Democrats in the process. And that if refocusing on pulling the country back to the left, back towards any appreciable "normal" in the developed world, causes Manchin to break with the party and the Democrats to lose every election from here to eternity, then the country's already lost and fighting it is wasting time and effort in the wrong places.

I don't agree that's the case, mind you. I think there's a much bigger audience for left-wing progressivism than the mostly-right-wing political sphere wants to admit. I'm arguing against the kind of defeatism that says you have to do what Manchin wants because he's the only one holding the party in power, which is the death of hope.

[Ripster42]

So, basically what I said you said. Where's the lie? At best, you were suggesting they were unaware they were working for Republicans.

Jeee-sus.

"Stop pushing for left-wing political goals and start compromising with the right wing on everything, or you're (somehow) secretly Republican and trying to help the GOP".

There's the lie. That's not what I said. I said focus your efforts where they're not going to damage your own political interests. I said that true believers with bad takes are indistinguishable for actual 5th columnists. That's not saying compromise, nor that true believers are secretly republican.

It's quite possible that Democrats can't win back the Senate. Like, literally not ever gonna happen. And if that's the case, then the elections are effectively meaningless. Manchin is meaningless. Because Manchin just helps you keep circling the drain. He doesn't do anything to help pull America out of the death spiral to fascism.

"There's a chance it might not be effective so don't try."

That doesn't mean kick him out, it means planning to render him obsolete and irrelevant. And if there's no path to achieving that, then the game's already lost and focusing on elections is a distraction from the reality of US collapse. I'm not saying there isn't such a path, I'm calling into your question that Manchin is somehow some kind of lynchpin who's absolutely required. If that's truly the case, it's already over.

You've tried center-right neoliberal milquetoast "stay the course" bullshit. Twice now, with Clinton and Biden, and Biden only won because Trump was completely asinine and it freaked out the electorate. But simultaneously fired up his own base.

6 year cycles in the senate. Edit: We're about 2 years into the one where trump showed his colors. I get it, you're an outsider. You should also recognize that and stop lecturing about things you don't have the knowledge base to sit so high on that horse.

Hence the suggestion of trying to wake up the electorate by actually appealing to actual left-wing interests, for once. Which the Democrats simply haven't done. Like, ever. What you've been doing hasn't been working, the leadership you've been picking hasn't been correcting the direction the US is going. Trying something new might fail, but the consequence of failure is just the path you're already choosing.

Yeah, so do that in the places where actually appealing to actual left-wing interests have a chance of doing some good, not in WV.

[Endus]

6 year cycles in the senate. I get it, you're an outsider. You should also recognize that and stop lecturing about things you don't have the knowledge base to sit so that high on that horse.

I'm failing to see how you could possibly have thought the 6-year terms of the Senate members was in any way a counterpoint to literally anything I said.

Yeah, so do that in the places where actually appealing to actual left-wing interests have a chance of doing some good, not in WV.

Sort of my point?

I'm not talking just about West Virginia. I'm saying focusing so much on Manchin and West Virginia is the problem. Literally my entire point.

[Paranoid Android]

You happy with the roe v wade decision? Or do you not care about judges. You like SCOTUS getting rid of gun control laws that were passed? Or do you not care about judges. I sure hope you haven't posted in either of those threads, else I'll refer you to my signature. If you don't care about those issues, spare me your privilege.

Umm Manchin is protecting the filibuster. In some weird statement to get both ways, Manchin says he would codify Roe. Again empty statement since there is no way you will get 60 votes for Roe. So he needs to get on Team Blue and go all in on the filibuster. Oh, my editorial comment which is part of last news, shows that Manchin's word is nothing when he just killed any climate and economic bill.

Manchin voted for 2 conservative judges and recently Brown. Didn't vote for Barrett. I stated we have to get appointing judges as the bare litmus test.

Manchin is from WV, not california. He's not going to vote like a senator from california. He's from a state whose economy is based on fossil fuel extraction (coal and natural gas is 14% of their GDP, not including knock-on effects) and he's representing his constituents.

As I stated you have to pick a team. Manchin is killing the Dems Nationwide. If voters from other states see the Dems can't get legislation through and yes progressive legislation, that is going to suppress votes elsewhere, in possible races that can be won. West Virginia in our example cannot hold up the laws that every other 49 Dems Senators want (cough Sinema, eff her too). This is my point that if ALL Dems or most in agreement on something then you have be a team player. Only way legislation being passed. That's my BIG take.

I will fight on this that people such as yourself are giving Manchin too much credit in he gets to pick and choose which Dem legislation gets killed.

In post you replied too I also stated that many Dems are corporate schills, so the maybe the argument of how much and if it got down to it would they really support these bills. I question that. Such as a really, really good climate bill. I have a feeling if that if this became a possibility you would see more Manchin type Dems. But hard to tell.

[Ripster42]

I'm failing to see how you could possibly have thought the 6-year terms of the Senate members was in any way a counterpoint to literally anything I said.

We're not even to a single election, in the 3 that have to go by, before a complete senate cycle goes through. Trump tried to overthrow the US gov't after the 2020 election.

Sort of my point?

I'm not talking just about West Virginia. I'm saying focusing so much on Manchin and West Virginia is the problem. Literally my entire point.

But I am. I'm specifically talking about this type anti-manchin rhetoric.

- - - Updated - - -

Umm Manchin is protecting the filibuster. In some weird statement to get both ways, Manchin says he would codify Roe. Again empty statement since there is no way you will get 60 votes for Roe. So he needs to get on Team Blue and go all in on the filibuster. Oh, my editorial comment which is part of last news, shows that Manchin's word is nothing when he just killed any climate and economic bill.

Manchin voted for 2 conservative judges and recently Brown. Didn't vote for Barrett. I stated we have to get appointing judges as the bare litmus test.

As I stated you have to pick a team. Manchin is killing the Dems Nationwide. If voters from other states see the Dems can't get legislation through and yes progressive legislation, that is going to suppress votes elsewhere, in possible races that can be won. West Virginia in our example cannot hold up the laws that every other 49 Dems Senators want (cough Sinema, eff her too). This is my point that if ALL Dems or most in agreement on something then you have be a team player. Only way legislation being passed. That's my BIG take.

I will fight on this that people such as yourself are giving Manchin too much credit in he gets to pick and choose which Dem legislation gets killed.

In post you replied too I also stated that many Dems are corporate schills, so the maybe the argument of how much and if it got down to it would they really support these bills. I question that. Such as a really, really good climate bill. I have a feeling if that if this became a possibility you would see more Manchin type Dems. But hard to tell.

Manchin's constituency is WV, not the entire US. I get that you don't understand that, but try a little bit harder. He's the type of democrat that gets elected in WV. Having an edge case democrat is way better than having another GOP senator from WV. He's not killing the dems nationwide. This type of rhetoric harping on ideological purity is what's killing the dems nationwide.

[Endus]

This type of rhetoric harping on ideological purity is what's killing the dems nationwide.

The rest of us are arguing about opening Democratic policy up to more-progressive more-left-wing platform positions, to pull in a broader base.

You're arguing we need to limit everything to Manchin's satisfaction to save that one seat in West Virginia.

Which of us is supporting "ideological purity", again?

[Paranoid Android]

Yeah, so do that in the places where actually appealing to actual left-wing interests have a chance of doing some good, not in WV.

Soooooo many things here.

Manchin is not helping WV. This dude who as much as I hate many Republican Senators, might be the Biggest piece of crap to his constituents. In short, I'm not going to list all his all his transgressions, but just recently the really big story of how he made his money and was let into owning coal processing plants, etc is scummier than any sitting Senator.

West Virginia clings to its coal, okay that's my leftist bubble, but Manchin is not helping them at all.

Now let's get toe the rea juicy part where you mention left-wing interests. Well, the Dems with this economic and even climate bill would help one of if not the poorest state(?) in the US. These people are brainwashed to vote against their interest. I guess you can say Manchin is using self preservation of in a heavy red state getting elected. Many Senators do this.

[Ripster42]

The rest of us are arguing about opening Democratic policy up to more-progressive more-left-wing platform positions, to pull in a broader base.

You're arguing we need to limit everything to Manchin's satisfaction to save that one seat in West Virginia.

Which of us is supporting "ideological purity", again?

Na. You're lying, again. I'm arguing that rhetoric lambasting manchin is counterproductive. I'm arguing that we should be focusing on electing more democrats rather than trying to keep one from being re-elected.

Edit: and it's this guy supporting ideological purity: "Just be a team player!"

As I stated you have to pick a team. Manchin is killing the Dems Nationwide. If voters from other states see the Dems can't get legislation through and yes progressive legislation, that is going to suppress votes elsewhere, in possible races that can be won. West Virginia in our example cannot hold up the laws that every other 49 Dems Senators want (cough Sinema, eff her too). This is my point that if ALL Dems or most in agreement on something then you have be a team player. Only way legislation being passed. That's my BIG take.

- - - Updated - - -

Soooooo many things here.

Manchin is not helping WV. This dude who as much as I hate many Republican Senators, might be the Biggest piece of crap to his constituents. In short, I'm not going to list all his all his transgressions, but just recently the really big story of how he made his money and was let into owning coal processing plants, etc is scummier than any sitting Senator.

West Virginia clings to its coal, okay that's my leftist bubble, but Manchin is not helping them at all.

Now let's get toe the rea juicy part where you mention left-wing interests. Well, the Dems with this economic and even climate bill would help one of if not the poorest state(?) in the US. These people are brainwashed to vote against their interest. I guess you can say Manchin is using self preservation of in a heavy red state getting elected. Many Senators do this.

Yeah, that's great an all, but, as I said earlier, WV's economy is largely based on fossil fuel extraction. That's what their voters care about. Instead of trying to unseat him so the dems lose control of the senate, get more dems elected so he becomes unimportant.

[Ripster42]

Couldn't that goal work in tandem? Like, Manchin is a corrupt self-interest shitfuck but if you push actual swing seats, and places where GQP can actually have their seats lost, manchin loses all power while giving dems enough of a majority. If Enough movement happens that can get Democrats a safe senate majority and Manchin is still holding heavy control THEN he can be targeted, surely?

Yes, that's my point exactly:

Instead of trying to unseat him so the dems lose control of the senate, get more dems elected so he becomes unimportant.

Instead of eating your own, focus your efforts where it belongs: on the people who tried to overthrow our gov't and are constantly trying to take away your rights. When dems have moved the overton windon further left, then we might be in a place where your rhetoric is effective.

[Paranoid Android]

Yeah, that's great an all, but, as I said earlier, WV's economy is largely based on fossil fuel extraction. That's what their voters care about. Instead of trying to unseat him so the dems lose control of the senate, get more dems elected so he becomes unimportant.

Okay as stated I never said we should unseat Manchin. I said get on Team Blue or the Dem leadership should use what they have to put the twist on him. One he is ironically head of the Energy Committee. Not cause he is represents the worst of fossil fuels in coals, but as again his unabashed representation of the fossil fuel companies and his blatant corruption.

It's not about purity, idk why this is the buzzword you have to say when it's clear if Dem party legislation doesn't move forward and keeps getting defeated, especially by a frickin Democrat, people in other places won't show up.

[Ripster42]

Okay as stated I never said we should unseat Manchin. I said get on Team Blue or the Dem leadership should use what they have to put the twist on him. One he is ironically head of the Energy Committee. Not cause he is represents the worst of fossil fuels in coals, but as again his unabashed representation of the fossil fuel companies and his blatant corruption.

It's not about purity, idk why this is the buzzword you have to say when it's clear if Dem party legislation doesn't move forward and keeps getting defeated, especially by a frickin Democrat, people in other places won't show up.

Yeah, this rhetoric lambasting manchin doesn't help. He's not going to change his position. He won his election by ~3%. The other senator from WV won their's by 30% running on a GOP ticket against someone with the views you're espousing. Changing his position means he loses his seat in 2024. Calling schumer weak because he understands that a whole lot better than you do doesn't help either.

Edit: Grammar sucks, you're not your.

[Ivanstone]

I don't agree that's the case, mind you. I think there's a much bigger audience for left-wing progressivism than the mostly-right-wing political sphere wants to admit. I'm arguing against the kind of defeatism that says you have to do what Manchin wants because he's the only one holding the party in power, which is the death of hope.

At this exact time you need to do what’s pragmatic. Having Manchin is better then nothing. Similarly having a Governor like Bel Edwards is better than nothing. You’re not likely going to get some body more progressive from either of those states.

It would be swell if a couple of GOP senators went poof over the next couple months so some actual work could get done. Instead what we got is Manchin, Sinema and the Dems losing their majority for a few weeks because Ben Lujan had a stroke at the age of 49.

[Paranoid Android]

This just in: Nancy Pelosi’s husband bought $5 million in chip stocks — including 20,000 shares of Nvidia — ahead of a China competition bill in the Senate that would allocate $52 billion to boost domestic semiconductor manufacturing & includes massive tax credits.

Just FML! Pelosi had done this repeatedly on stock purchases. Well, technically her husband.

[Endus]

Not "technically her husband," literally her husband.

And can we not post an actual source? Rather than some random right wing dude on Twitter with zero links?

At least his wife reported all this.

Shouldn't matter if it's reported; if he's making investment decisions based on her insight on incoming legislation and such, that should be seen as insider trading. The same severity as what sent Martha Stewart to prison. For both Pelosis.

Why would you ever create exceptions for politicians?

[david0925]

I'm not really trying to defend insider trading, but how can you effectively stop it? Ban politician and their immediate families/distant families from ever touching the stock market? I "might" be ok with that, but then what about their friends? What is stopping them from just providing advice to their friends?

I don't want to come off as slippery slope; just want to find actual good solutions because i did think about this a while back and I just don't have a good solution.

[Snuke]

I'm not really trying to defend insider trading, but how can you effectively stop it? Ban politician and their immediate families/distant families from ever touching the stock market? I "might" be ok with that, but then what about their friends? What is stopping them from just providing advice to their friends?

I don't want to come off as slippery slope; just want to find actual good solutions because i did think about this a while back and I just don't have a good solution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_trust

[david0925]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_trust

I understand there is a Blind trust (or at least, the concept. Not as much the details). It's pretty straightforward for a politician to use a blind trust, but what about the people close to them, and how close?