[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[KrayZ33]

I'm not sure, of course.
But if Savage gear does have those particle effects exclusively, then I hope normal gear becomes dyeable.

Oh... didn't even think about it. You think we will be able to change the colour of the effects with dye?

Either way, I wonder how they will look inside the Portrait thingy. These effects usually remain animated, so you can do some fancy stuff with them for sure, just like with relic weapons.

[Yarathir]

Oh... didn't even think about it. You think we will be able to change the colour of the effects with dye?

Either way, I wonder how they will look inside the Portrait thingy. These effects usually remain animated, so you can do some fancy stuff with them for sure, just like with relic weapons.

No idea, honestly. It might be what you dye (which would be cool), or it just remains the same.

Would suck though if there isn't a version without the VFX you can't dye at all.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Pulling off a discussion earlier, I do think the sub 50 experience is kind of a problem, but I see no real way to fix it considering how many abilities they have to spread out over 90 levels. Though I will say "only have one button to mash for 50 levels" is something of an extreme exaggeration. You have 1 button at level 1 for every class and immediately at level 2 get your second button which has a higher potency for every class. So immediately any claim of "You only have 1 button to push for X levels" is false, unless X is 1.

No, having your entire kit by 50 would suck as then you'd feel no real sense of progression. I could live with only getting major class changing abilities every 10 levels, while most of the basic stuff is pushed down to 50.

Most classes get significant rotation abilities at 1, 2, 10/15, 20/25, 30, 35, 40, 45 and 50 anyway, and while the rotation still feels basic, it's not as bad as some people are claiming.

As for the armor particle effects, there might be some clipping issues, but I feel like the design team isn't going to allow the new particle effect armor to look bad. I doubt they'd have implemented it at all if there was any significant clipping or visual issues with it. Yes, bright effects show up better against a dark background, but TEA and DSR weapons are still very bright and noticeable against light backdrops, so I get the feeling that it's going to be just fine.

[Granyala]

The lack of class customization really harms the game. In WoW and GW2, I can choose to equip as many buttons as I want, and fill the rest of my build with passives. Whereas in FFXIV, if a class is just pressing 1 over and over... you can't do anything about it. And if another class involves playing piano playing three dozen different buttons, sorry you're out of luck, you can't change it. WoW and GW2 also lets you customize your class fantasy to some degree. You can be different flavors of warrior, either being a raging barbarian who dual wields axes, or a masterswordsman who parries with a two handed sword, or a sword and boarder, etc. In GW2, you can be different flavors of Ranger, either focusing on being a beastmaster with different pet abilities, or being some sort of Aragorn-esque ranger who is a master swordsman and archer, or being a trapper, or interacting with nature spirits, etc. There is no such class fantasy flexibility in FFXIV either. Even FF11 allowed you to combine different classes. You could be a beastmaster who also casted white magic to heal, or was also a samurai.

Doesn't matter.
In challenging content, you will be forced into cookiecutter specs by the community, everything else will have trouble getting accepted by groups.
Freedom to gimp yourself isn't really any choice once you factor in the community. Unless you want to stick to easymode content of course...

GW2 was the most bullshit combat system I've ever seen. No thanks.

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Pulling off a discussion earlier, I do think the sub 50 experience is kind of a problem, but I see no real way to fix it considering how many abilities they have to spread out over 90 levels.

Considering the speed at which you level and the fact that leveling classes always feel borked and broken in any RPG I know, it's a non issue.
Leveling is very quick these days, just push through and be done with that leveling nonsense.

[KrayZ33]

Doesn't matter.
In challenging content, you will be forced into cookiecutter specs by the community, everything else will have trouble getting accepted by groups.
Freedom to gimp yourself isn't really any choice once you factor in the community. Unless you want to stick to easymode content of course...

GW2 was the most bullshit combat system I've ever seen. No thanks.

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Considering the speed at which you level and the fact that leveling classes always feel borked and broken in any RPG I know, it's a non issue.
Leveling is very quick these days, just push through and be done with that leveling nonsense.

Most of this is just a bit silly though....
Do you feel forced into a specific job right now?
And do you play it? If not, why do you think it would be different for specs when Jobs perform up to 10% better or worse right now. I mean... specs just don't work in this game anyway and your time is better invested in a completely new job... but still, that's just fearmongering.

As for the other part, it's not just about leveling.
And some classes don't even unlock their ressource system until 50+ and not fully until much later.
Meaning whenever you do <maxlevel roulettes your class feels unfinished - well, how could it not, since it IS unfished.
And someone else said that "they don't see a way to put so many abilities in before 90"... we get like 1 ability that EXTENDS what you have been already doing for 50+ levels every 2-4 levels or so....
It's not as if a completely new way of doing things opens up every other ability. At most you switch around a frequence here and there.

[Granyala]

Most of this is just a bit silly though....
Do you feel forced into a specific job right now?
And do you play it? If not, why do you think it would be different for specs when Jobs perform up to 10% better or worse right now. I mean... specs just don't work in this game anyway and your time is better invested in a completely new job... but still, that's just fearmongering.

I've gotten plenty of FLAK from raiders as a SPriest just for picking the silence talent because it was not considered useful in raids back in TBC. I also remember plenty of specs having difficulty finding dungeon invites, especially if they lacked CC.

So yeah: people WILL enforce "optimal" spec if they have the chance.

Right now, XIV does not give people much chance at that and I consider it a good design. The last thing I want is some illusion of "free choice character customization" that ends up in a balancing nightmare and gets mostly ignored as soon as content gets tough.

[KrayZ33]

The point still stands though.
"They" could "force" you to play the optimal job and simply not invite you if you aren't playing SAM/BLM or whatever. Either they do it right now, or they don't.
If they do, then nothing would change, if they don't, then nothing would change.

Again, for FFXIV it wouldn't make much sense anyway because jobs are so set in stone, that changing a talent or having a talent that is worth a damn in the first place would mean your time would be better invested in a new job.

But you are using a slippery slope argument here. For some reason you think if X changes everything will change... like.. all of a sudden raids are going to be more difficult or something. The same players that would not invite you for having the "wrong" job will not invite you for having the "wrong" talents.
But all the others will just not care as long as you are not dead weight... and if end up as dead weight from a talent, then it's not the problem of the talent *system*, it's the problem of the talent being useless and they would just adjust that...Just like you make sure a job isn't dead weight and underperforming too much.

[Granyala]

"They" could "force" you to play the optimal job and simply not invite you if you aren't playing SAM/BLM or whatever. Either they do it right now, or they don't.

You're comparing apples to oranges here.

Right now, you pick a job and you pretty much know what you get.
Balance is okay enough for job choice to not matter, if the person knows how to play in 99.9% of all situations.

If we implemented talents and choices, players will pick suboptimal stuff, gimping themselves.
Balancing cannot really account for all possible combinations w/o extreme streamlining, making the whole talents a moot point to begin with.

Now you have a weak job coupled with an underperforming, badly chosen spec.
The probability of being denied access just increased a lot. The solution? Stick to generally accepted cookie-cutter builds to not have that problem.

So, the choice is technically there but it is a nonsensical one, since there will always only be one optimal way to do things and due to peer pressure, the whole choice ends up being a fake one.

and if end up as dead weight from a talent, then it's not the problem of the talent *system*, it's the problem of the talent being useless and they would just adjust that...Just like you make sure a job isn't dead weight and underperforming too much.

If only, lol.

10 years of being a Shadow Priest taught me differently. They don't "just" balance things. They struggle. HARD. They fail, time and time again. having really meaningful talent choices, as in: actual changes of gameplay and not just "5% here, 2% there, so you get the illusion of OMG A TALENT POINT TO SPEND!!112" on every job increases balancing effort exponentially.
I say: better not bother with nonsense like that in competitive multiplayer games and invest the DEV time that would be dedicated to balancing etc. into more productive things.

Also I agree: I really do not see such a system working for XIV, as it currently stands, since Job ID is pretty fixed. ... Unless you are a summoner, I guess. The recent changes still feel really weird.

[Maljinwo]

There's a difference in philosophy.
Most DPS in FFXIV have a role to fill.
Sure, BLM and SAM are the raw DPS powerhouses, but without that, they provide no other benefit to the party.
RDM, BRD, DRG and others can either buff other members, resurrect, etc

DPS meters are not encouraged because of this. There's more to a party than raw numbers


I can't imagine YoshiP saying "We'd rather you didn't play NIN" as they nerf it to the ground because they dislike how they currently play

[MsSideEye]

There's a difference in philosophy.
Most DPS in FFXIV have a role to fill.
Sure, BLM and SAM are the raw DPS powerhouses, but without that, they provide no other benefit to the party.
RDM, BRD, DRG and others can either buff other members, resurrect, etc

DPS meters are not encouraged because of this. There's more to a party than raw numbers


I can't imagine YoshiP saying "We'd rather you didn't play NIN" as they nerf it to the ground because they dislike how they currently play

Yeah, even for classes that they know they're going to do major reworks or changes to in the future, they do their best to make things at least bearable for the players until then. Look at Monk in Shadowbringers. They were going to rework it for Endwalker and what they ended up doing is giving it a lot of changes to ease the shift while still allowing Monks to be Monks.

[Pannonian]

There's a difference in philosophy.
Most DPS in FFXIV have a role to fill.
Sure, BLM and SAM are the raw DPS powerhouses, but without that, they provide no other benefit to the party.
RDM, BRD, DRG and others can either buff other members, resurrect, etc

DPS meters are not encouraged because of this. There's more to a party than raw numbers


I can't imagine YoshiP saying "We'd rather you didn't play NIN" as they nerf it to the ground because they dislike how they currently play

Class stacking is also heavily discouraged by the group buffs: Every group gets 1% dmg/heal for each role in the group: tank/heal/phys range/melee/magic dps - to a max of 5%. So at best you can take 2 of one dps, and then you generate limit break at a lower pace (though for most fights it doesnt matter that much).

Even with the dps meters, the tools represent this. E.g.: buff dps gets added to the buffer and substracted, which normalizes everything.

[Yarathir]

I've gotten plenty of FLAK from raiders as a SPriest just for picking the silence talent because it was not considered useful in raids back in TBC. I also remember plenty of specs having difficulty finding dungeon invites, especially if they lacked CC.

So yeah: people WILL enforce "optimal" spec if they have the chance.

Right now, XIV does not give people much chance at that and I consider it a good design. The last thing I want is some illusion of "free choice character customization" that ends up in a balancing nightmare and gets mostly ignored as soon as content gets tough.

Same. Rather have a bunch of solid jobs I can switch between than try to deal with the absolute shitshow that is talents and the like. But then again, I've never been enamored with talents. They were always just illusion of choice in my eyes. Santa Claus for gamers.

[Ghost of Cow]

Same. Rather have a bunch of solid jobs I can switch between than try to deal with the absolute shitshow that is talents and the like. But then again, I've never been enamored with talents. They were always just illusion of choice in my eyes. Santa Claus for gamers.

I'm actually rather sad that Blizz caved and brought back the trees. I thought we were past the idea of big grids/trees/spheres of nodes full of 1% bonuses and mandatory capstones.

[KrayZ33]

I'm actually rather sad that Blizz caved and brought back the trees. I thought we were past the idea of big grids/trees/spheres of nodes full of 1% bonuses and mandatory capstones.

Well, I can only speak for hunters, but at least for them, these low % bonuses don't exist and you are looking at 5-10% per skillpoints (that, depending on where you go, you can't reach) and overall effects rather than %increases in general.

So... it's no PoE nonsense.

I don't understand why people are so set on what is optimal instead of just playing what is fun though.
The content you play might demand an optimal setup, but FFXIV will most likely not even have that.
The excuse about "the community" forcing you into something seems so out of place... especially in FFXIV.

After all, everyone keeps saying how you get banned if you fart in the wrong direction and how nice the community is... and now everyone acts as if they would lynch you if you have a different setup (if talents were a thing)

Saying talents are an illusion of choice is only true for people that want *the* best setup.
But talents aren't always designed around that... I know lots of people who pick passive stuff because they don't want to deal with it. People who pick active stuff because they want to deal with it.
people who pick a certain ability because they think it's nice. People who pick an ability because they like the utility.
What exactly is the "illusion of choice" here.

Do people really think talents invite toxicity or something? Aren't the players themselve the source? And wouldn't they find something else if talents are not a thing? And when they "harass" you into specific talents, wouldn't the GMs act the same way as they would when you insult people or talk about how bad they are?

[Ghost of Cow]

Well, I can only speak for hunters, but at least for them, these low % bonuses don't exist and you are looking at 5-10% per skillpoints (that, depending on where you go, you can't reach) and overall effects rather than %increases in general.

So... it's no PoE nonsense.

I don't understand why people are so set on what is optimal instead of just playing what is fun though.
The content you play might demand an optimal setup, but FFXIV will most likely not even have that.
The excuse about "the community" forcing you into something seems so out of place... especially in FFXIV.

After all, everyone keeps saying how you get banned if you fart in the wrong direction and how nice the community is... and now everyone acts as if they would lynch you if you have a different setup (if talents were a thing)

The thing is that there's almost never a specifically "fun" choice anyway. It's generally just, "Node 1" which gives you 4% damage and "Node 2" that gives you 5% and that's what you go with.

It's rare (nonexistent?) that you see a situation where it's like, "Ultra Amazing Fun Rocket Jump Backflip" as one talent choice and "Just do more damage" as the other.

If you do make a choice to just "do what's fun" it's usually expressed in gameplay and that's how we get Blizzard Wizards and Shield Lob Paladins.

[Myradin]

Well, I can only speak for hunters, but at least for them, these low % bonuses don't exist and you are looking at 5-10% per skillpoints (that, depending on where you go, you can't reach) and overall effects rather than %increases in general.

So... it's no PoE nonsense.

I don't understand why people are so set on what is optimal instead of just playing what is fun though.
The content you play might demand an optimal setup, but FFXIV will most likely not even have that.
The excuse about "the community" forcing you into something seems so out of place... especially in FFXIV.

After all, everyone keeps saying how you get banned if you fart in the wrong direction and how nice the community is... and now everyone acts as if they would lynch you if you have a different setup (if talents were a thing)

The FFXIV community is nice because it lacks the various points of contention that WoW has.

[StrawberryZebra]

I'm actually rather sad that Blizz caved and brought back the trees. I thought we were past the idea of big grids/trees/spheres of nodes full of 1% bonuses and mandatory capstones.

Where they've always failed with them is in the balancing. Not all talents were created equal and some were clearly better than others. The current talents are better than the historical trees, but they're still not balanced well either. At least now there's some degree of choice when it comes to which talent you take for which content, which is an improvement.

What they should probably do is give you choices that are seperate to your characters throughput. For example, if you had a choice of an Interrupt, an Offensive Dispel or a Sprint as a talent the "best" one of those is dependent on a lot of factors other than performance. There's no good way to directly compare them in a vacuum which stymies any attempts to math it out.

Surprisingly, FF14's old system of choosing abilities that you'd unlocked from other jobs or from a role list was a better way of doing this. It asked you to pick 5 of 10-15 abilities and the best ones varied depending on circumstances. It was far from perfect too, but it was at least better than Blizzards talent trees.

[Ghost of Cow]

What they should probably do is give you choices that are seperate to your characters throughput. For example, if you had a choice of an Interrupt, an Offensive Dispel or a Sprint as a talent the "best" one of those is dependent on a lot of factors other than performance. There's no good way to directly compare them in a vacuum which stymies any attempts to math it out.

The issue there is that you're just going to be swapping those talents every fight.

Boss has a buff? Gotta dispel. Boss has a dangerous cast? Gotta interrupt. Need more than one of those? Gotta micromanage your groups talents now.

None of them are absolutely required? Then the content probably isn't tuned to where anything matters anyway.

The combat gameplay of these games is rarely about self-expression and identity and whatever else. That's what the RPing and glamour and whatnot is for. Well, that and just being an individual. That's how people can express themselves if they feel the need to. It's just not going to exist in a meaningful way within combat systems most of the time.

[StrawberryZebra]

The issue there is that you're just going to be swapping those talents every fight.

Boss has a buff? Gotta dispel. Boss has a dangerous cast? Gotta interrupt. Need more than one of those? Gotta micromanage your groups talents now.

I accept it's not a perfect system either - But the goal was to present talents that are incomparable to one another. In this example, sure you'd need to coordinate with other players in a group but that already happens anyway particularly when you're in a raid group.

There are a few places where WoW already does this, like Blessing of Spellwarding for Paladins, which allows you to choose between Blessing of Protection preventing physical damage, or Blessing of Spellwarding preventing magic damage. Which is conceptually fine, but they've dropped the ball on having it compete with performance boosting talents too. If it was a straight up choice as to which one of these two Blessings you want to take at any given time... It's a tough one because they're both good for different situations. It's not an either/or choice, but it should be imo.

[Granyala]

DPS meters are not encouraged because of this. There's more to a party than raw numbers

And yet, with ACT, people in FF obsess about DPS (even when they already are way past the encounter's requirements) just as much as the people in WoW.

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I don't understand why people are so set on what is optimal instead of just playing what is fun though.

Apart from, I think it was Warlords of Draenor, I never felt talents to be impactful enough to really actually matter. Some spell does 10 - 15% bigger numbers? I don't care unless it changes the way I play the class.

In WoD, as an SPriest, I could talent between 3 distinct playstyles. It was an ... interesting time, to say the least.

Naturally it all ended up in "subspec A is best on boss A" and "subspec B clearly obliterates every other on boss B" so for serious raid progression... well fun was out of the window unless you want your raid members to look at you in a funny way and be clearly behind your Co-Shadow who didn't mind the swap.

Yeah the "choice" was there: the choice to gimp myself on purpose. Weee... awesome... so much fun....