FFXIV Criticisms

[Necromantic]

*snip*

How… DARE you. These aren’t cashiers. These are lawn rakers. Way to be judgmental…

[Grinning Serpent]

And to continue using your Union workers comparison, also think of it this way. Joe Blow there probably won't EVER amount to anything more then just a cashier and, hell, might even be fine with it. You putting in your best, though, is likely to get you promoted and moved to other areas to get ahead, which to go back into 14 means you getting into a Savage/Extreme/Ultimate group.

Statics do not give a single tin shit about your performance in Normals or dungeons, and PF groups can only either accept anyone or set it to Duty Completion (which checks for you having cleared it at least once.) Generally, if you're applying to join a static, they're mostly going to check some of your logs from previous tiers and maybe invite you to come do a few older fights or Ex's to get a feel for how you play. Particularly, are you a tunnel visioning idiot SAM that's likely to cause wipes when you're sitting there trying to greed instead of just doing the mechanic. No, I definitely don't have way too much experience with SAM players being greedy idiots.

To be fair, they DID cutdown on the cutscenes in Praetorium. And Cut the actual dungeon in half. It still suffers from what it has mostly because this is STILL trying to be the capoff point in the story for ARR. That's why they're mandatory and why, after this point in the game, FFVIX never did cutscenes in a dungeon ever again to this extent and waited until you were out of the dungeon.

The problem is that, in addition to just the sheer length (Gaius monologues for a combined *14 minutes* in the original version), it's not particularly good storytelling. It's normal and maybe even expected that the BBEG has a speech or two for the PCs before the penultimate fight in any kind of "non-realistic" fantasy story, but Gaius really just takes it too far. There's actually some pretty important stuff that gets broached in his tirades, but I feel like the majority of players are just going to be staring at the walls or tabbing out to look at something else because it just goes on for so damned long. It would be a lot more effective to convey a lot of this information *before* the penultimate battle through other means, or afterwards.

Compared to HW and all of the narratives afterwards, ARR just has really bad pacing and storyboarding. I genuinely think it needs a full rewrite. Keep the actual plot and foundation, but rework the entire narrative to flow better and be presented in a better way. This would also be an obvious opportunity to cut even more content that clearly exists to extend playtime (or was there solely to budget additional XP to the player at a time when the MSQ alone was insufficient to keep you moving forward), such as the LOL WRONG CRYSTAL HAHA WHOOPSIE bits.

I'll be honest, I'm a little surprised you jumped into FFXIV healing right off the bat. Healing is always been one of the more stressful jobs in ANY MMO because if you're not capable of doing it right, the entire group suffers. Some people don't do well with that level of responsibility. Kudos for being able to handle Sage right smack dab in the deep end.

Healing and especially tanking are literally the easiest roles in the game. They've been simplified and homogenized far moreso than DPS roles, because Square-Enix understandably wants as many people as possible playing them so that DF queues remain in check. It's also why they gave the tanks class-exclusive achievement mounts back when - they wanted more people playing tanks.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah because it's not your typical healer. You can get away with not doing DPS as any other healer but a Sage who doesn't DPS is the same as an Ice Mage.

What? You can play a 0 DPS Sage just as well as a 0 DPS White Mage, because you're spending all of your time licking windows, staring at the floor, or casting Cure/Diagnosis. Sage does not lose anything meaningful from being a 0 DPS healer compared to any other healer, because any GCDs you actually make use of are spent on healing actions anyway. Chain casting Diagnosis is considerably more HP/sec than chain casting Dosis for Kardion procs.

[Sharby]

Yeah because it's not your typical healer. You can get away with not doing DPS as any other healer but a Sage who doesn't DPS is the same as an Ice Mage.

This is quite literally never true, all the healers are the same. SGE Kardia is supposed to be their replacement for SCH Embrace, which is far from a vital heal.


They will never tune content around forcing healers to do damage outside of Week 1/Min Ilvl pushes in which every healer has to do damage.

[Pannonian]

Sage job quests usually show you how it plays by asking you to use certain spells.

It does have a "beginners trap" though. You have a spell named Kardia that transforms a % of your damage as healing for a party member you cast it on. And I've seen several begginers thinking that doing damage is enough to top the tank and, trust me, damage is not enough healing after level 30 dungeons

woot? i heal most expert dungeons with just kardia and ae abilities i use my charges for, but mainly to get mana back. Sure i use the cds (haima + pan), but i NEVER* use ogcd heal in a dungeon...

*well of course, that entails the tank having at least 2 braincells to rub together (not even speaking about mit) - if the tank gets 6 vuln stacks, yeah i have to ogcd heal (or just reset his stacks...)

[Necromantic]

This is quite literally never true, all the healers are the same. SGE Kardia is supposed to be their replacement for SCH Embrace, which is far from a vital heal.


They will never tune content around forcing healers to do damage outside of Week 1/Min Ilvl pushes in which every healer has to do damage.

What do you consider a vital heal? Kardia is nothing to scoff at.

And technically, they never tune any content around forcing healers to DPS. Yoshi stated himself that they do not do this.

[Moralgy]

What do you consider a vital heal? Kardia is nothing to scoff at.

And technically, they never tune any content around forcing healers to DPS. Yoshi stated himself that they do not do this.

I do not believe that to be true, without healer dps u aint making p3 and p7 dps checks in dsr for example.

[Necromantic]

I do not believe that to be true, without healer dps u aint making p3 and p7 dps checks in dsr for example.

Not my statement, it's Yoshi's.

In my experience, healer DPS is never required but "icing on the cake". It's such a complicated subject that usually always devolves into someone calling someone else names over the internet over it. People have their own opinions and experiences on the subject. I've read a lot of various views an anecdotes. Some of which are good points and several which I can tell are not being honest.

[Moralgy]

Not my statement, it's Yoshi's.

In my experience, healer DPS is never required but "icing on the cake". It's such a complicated subject that usually always devolves into someone calling someone else names over the internet over it. People have their own opinions and experiences on the subject. I've read a lot of various views an anecdotes. Some of which are good points and several which I can tell are not being honest.

Yoship be lying then, no way in hell u make those 2 dps checks missing like 6-8k raid dps. Maybe in 2 xpacs when dsr is outscaled like ucob/uwu are xD.

[Necromantic]

Yoship be lying then, no way in hell u make those 2 dps checks missing like 6-8k raid dps. Maybe in 2 xpacs when dsr is outscaled like ucob/uwu are xD.

Not you... but in general, it does make me wonder where the honest line is drawn in the sand in that regard. The most popular response I see is "Our healer makes up for 30% of our DPS, that's huge". With how common that "30%" is, it makes me wonder if one of the other DPS are AFK the entire time, all the DPS are severely underperforming, the tank is just popping provoke and not attacking or what.

[Wrecktangle]

Because pre-30 (some feel 50), you've not experienced enough of the game to make a fair assessment. You've not even obtained a job stone and heck, you've not even got to Brayflox's Longstop which is usually the first dungeon I ever see anyone die. When I go for a test drive in a car, I'll drive it down and around town before deciding if I like it or not. Pulling it out of the parking spot and back in and saying I don't like it is rather unfair.

On savage or ultimate raiding? Sure I agree. On ARR? I disagree. Level 30 is several days worth of playtime exp buff not withstanding. If you're not having fun by then, it's either not the game for you, or the game is doing a poor job of pulling you in. In FF14's case it's usually a mix of both.

It's why one of the major scenarios you see is "hey we know ARR is janky, but we promise the game is good (and it is) once you get past it."

Because we find out they quit at level 30 after they spend dozens of posts complaining about things like encounter design, class design, and difficulty level, none of which are things that are reasonable to criticize at level 30. I've seen people literally compare the encounter design to wow mythic raids and then it turns out they quit before level 50.

sorry you got banned, but I wanted to respond - I've been on these forums, specifically this sub forum since it was created and I call this out EVERY single chance I get. Has it happened? Absolutely, but it's not common because it's a stupid take that really only someone would say if they were trying to be intentionally inflammatory. In fact, I can't even think of a single time it's happened meaningfully recently, and I know you're averse to providing context for your statements, but if you know someone who said it recently point it out to me, I'd love to rip into it.

If you don't I'd understand, but I'd be more careful about saying it so matter of fact, because it comes off super disingenuous and makes you look like you're pushing an agenda.

And
As opposed to?

@Auxis had mentioned that the WoW store is unique items (no idea if this is true, I've never looked or bought anything on it), and that half of the game is mount recolors (not sure on "half", but definitely a fuck ton of recolors, could be true). They then stated that FF14 is worse when it comes to recolors since trial mounts are literally just recolors (don't agree that it's worse) and you said "you literally mentioned the one situation where FF14 has recolors".

I felt it was incorrect for you to state that, since it is in fact not the ONLY situation where recolors exist. I cited numerous where it does, some of which have been hotly contested over the years.

But all this training you are talking about is simply unnecessary. The system in place already works fine. The vast majority of random groups go incredibly well.

The vast majority of groups do not go "incredibly well". They succeed sure, but the bar for success in matched content is literally "can breath", and not even pushes buttons meaningfully.

Except FF14 doesn't have titles and mounts that are tied directly to finishing X on Difficulty Y and are gone by the end of the year. 14 doesn't have a dedicated part of their UI showing how high you've gone, how fast you've gone, and then rewards you for going beyond that. 14 doesn't make it so that when you que up for dungeons, it switches what your baseline que is depend on your item level.

I think you're unfairly punishing WoW because it designed a system that allows players to challenge themselves. Both games clearly have tracked metrics (be it UI, or achievements, or rewards) for doing X on difficulty Y. (HoH, PotD, Savage, Ultimates, etc.)

If your argument is that FF14's is evergreen and WoW's isn't that is a completely separate, but valid discussion, but not particularly relevant to this piece.

The baseline queue piece is irrelevant since there aren't varying difficulties in FF14. I didn't know WoW did that though tbh. Never seen it, but I also don't really ever do anything non-mythic.

I won't deny, there are some bais. I was burned by WoW LOOOOOOOOOOOONG before I actually left it because of the Blitzchung event. But it has to be pointed out that WoW has cultivated the 'Gogogo, now now now' mindset with their design and encouragement of the player, where logging in even has things like 'Hey, the Mythic Plus season is starting up!' and stuff like that. Even if you don't pursue it yourself, WoW DOES encourage you to go out for that content in a way FF14 doesn't.

A notification that a new M+ season is starting up is not equivalent to cultivating a "gogogo mindset". Notifying you of something is not the same things as encouraging.

Nearly all the ones that are put into game like that are evergreen. The unique Alexander Mount in Heavensward is still there, still farmable today. There's no rush or pressure on me to get it, because I know it'll be there for me for as long the game itself exists. I can never get the Grove Warden or the Violet Spellwing, because I had to be there for it, pushing in the higher difficulties of content before that content goes away.

About the only thing similar that WoW and FF14 has in availability and the pressure of making sure you get it is the PVP mounts for being the best, and I thought that was a stupid system no matter what.

If it's any consolation, I don't care for non-evergreen content myself.

Who...cares? No really, who gives a damn who in random duty finder is not doing top parsing damage? What are you going to do, save a minute each run by being as toxic as possible?

No thanks I'd rather just have a fun easy time and take another 4-5 minutes.

The mentality of yours is exactly why they don't officially support addons. And I wholly support punishing people like you who would act out your weird min/maxing urges of random content to other people in the duty finder.

Sorry you're banned burner account, but wanted to reply regardless. - 1) Using hyperbole doesn't help paint an honest discussion. No one was asking for top parsing damage.

2) The issue with "fun easy time and take another 4-5 minutes" isn't as black and what as you think. ACT times your dungeon runs, and I've done the same expert dungeon in 11 minutes with a team of equals, all the way up to over 30 minutes with 2 players who were not trying. IMAGINE for a second if the healer and I (PLD) played with the same level of investment as our two DPS? That 33 minute run would become a 40+ easily. Maybe longer.

Now I don't expect 11 minute runs in matched content. That'd be silly. In fact a group of half decent players usually pulls over a 15-16 minute run, but as soon as that group of half decent gets one lazy player it goes from 15 minutes to 22 minutes, making the run nearly 50% longer. Sure it's just "7 minutes", but I don't have a ton of time to play so asking people to be present and push buttons isn't a big ask. Again I am not asking you push the RIGHT buttons, but just push SOME buttons.

If the content gets completed without wipes, it does go well. Being bitter and resentful that someone else isn't doing as much damage as you isn't the same as a run going poorly.

And success isn't the same as something going well.

Thank god mods are still frowned upon in an official capacity. Deliberate griefing/AFKing/auto-attacking is one thing, but I sure am glad I can't get any epeen stroking Samurai in my groups harassing the Bard for not doing max damage in an early Heavensward dungeon.

Humor me and I'm 99% sure I've actually asked you this before - what if epeen stroking/harassment was policed and punished very efficiently, but an official parser existed in the game. Good or bad?

Trying to see where the line is.

It's not about damage, it's about actual empirical evidence that they are not playing well. As we've said several times, the majority of players in DF aren't even keeping their GCD rolling. They aren't pressing the wrong buttons, they're not pushing buttons *at all.*

And by the way, this is shifting the goalposts. The original comment said something to the effect that most groups are pretty fantastic. I was simply providing empirical evidence that they are anything but. Just because the game is tuned to be so easy that literally one or two competent players can carry 3-6 garbage players doesn't mean that most groups are "great."

I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by saying "not playing well", rather than saying not contributing/being lazy. It's a very important distinction to make IMO.

Just the best when the discussion is, "There are bad players, just trust me. Use addons against the TOS so you can see how bad everyone is!"

This has and always been the crux of the issue. There are haves and have nots. People with information and people without. If you are in the know, then you have seen firsthand how questionable some players can be. How they hide in plain sight.

I've played for three years and I've yet to encounter this

The worst thing i've seen so far was a BLM that only used Blizzard spells

I've played since 2.0 (technically beta for 2.0) and I've seen it countless times. Are you ever running ACT in matched content?

Button bloat has been a conversation at max level, as you and literally every other person who has played the game has identified, but not by random lowbies who haven't even finished ARR, let alone HW or SB, where neither is the case regardless.[/I]

Bingo - if someone claimed button bloat at low level I'd call them silly. Max level, for sure I agree it's an issue.

But yes, I do think XIV is more complex and has more meaningful rotations. At least for DPS. And I like it that way. I don't think it's bloated, and as a Dragoon main, I will hiss at anyone who brings up the b-word.

Eh, I don't think they more complex if we're speaking to WoW, but I'm also not sure how you define complex? Meaningful I think is subjective so I won't debate that. I know I would prefer if the rotations were more dynamic and less binary. My primary issue with your statement is how so many buttons do so little and I genuinely wouldn't be upset if they culled and consolidated a lot of buttons. I've always advocated that WoW has too few, but FF14 has too many. There's a realm in between that IMHO is the sweet spot.

Looking at DRG, So many damage GCDs do either nothing, or sustain a maintenance buff automatically. Life Surge while binary in usage, is an interesting ability. BotD might as well not even exist anymore with how trivial it is to maintain/optimize. So many oGCDs are just press button do damage with very little thought or reason or give a flat damage buff with no change to gameplay. Everything else occurs naturally as a flow of the rotation. There's no decision points in the process.

There's a sizeable difference between 'I'm a little annoyed because I'm doing my job and the others aren't pulling their weight' and 'REEEE, YOU AREN'T DOING OPTIMAL DAMAGE, REEEEE!'. The Twisted Serpent is firmly in the latter category, considering how many times they brought up 'Download Act and tell me how 'good' others are doing their jobs'. And since outside of Savage/Extreme/Ultimate enrage mechancis are almost non-existent, it doesn't matter if it dies half a minute sooner or later than it 'should'.

Hyperbole again, please stop. I've said countless times that no one is expecting optimal damage, so PLEASE stop trying to push that agenda. I said the same thing about "download ACT" and tell me how "lazy" others are". I don't say good/bad because that's not a metric that I discuss in this context. For me, it's always been about effort, and I'm fairly confident @Grinning Serpent would agree.

I do not believe that to be true, without healer dps u aint making p3 and p7 dps checks in dsr for example.

@Necromantic 's comment is slight misinformation. Yoshi P said savage wasn't designed with hDPS in mind. If your hDPS is near zero you aren't clearing the 3rd and 4th fights without a week or two of tomes/drops from 1 and 2. This is expected.

Not my statement, it's Yoshi's.

See above.

[Necromantic]

On savage or ultimate raiding? Sure I agree. On ARR? I disagree. Level 30 is several days worth of playtime exp buff not withstanding. If you're not having fun by then, it's either not the game for you, or the game is doing a poor job of pulling you in. In FF14's case it's usually a mix of both.

It's why one of the major scenarios you see is "hey we know ARR is janky, but we promise the game is good (and it is) once you get past it."

The game gets off to a slow start, which is why many say level 30 is a good point. This isn't uncommon with most MMOs either... they need some form of momentum. There are several games in general that I've tried and gave up on because they were not drawing me in. Then later, I decided to give them a more fair shot and they became some of my all-time favorites. Fallout 4 was an example of this.

So FFXIV isn't the only game where some people jump the gun on tossing it aside as trash. Where that line is drawn is debatable, I can agree. Everyone will have their opinion on the matter.

@Necromantic 's comment is slight misinformation. Yoshi P said savage wasn't designed with hDPS in mind. If your hDPS is near zero you aren't clearing the 3rd and 4th fights without a week or two of tomes/drops from 1 and 2. This is expected.

It wasn't exactly misinformation, he specifically said "We do not expect healers to contribute to DPS. " He acknowledged that some cutting edge groups will utilize this for pushing. He said he firmly believes that it shouldn't be mandatory and they do not have the expectation for them to.

I've seen cutting edge players make claims on both sides. I've seen some say they do not require or expect their healers to and some who say they do. One group will say, as you did "You won't clear this in X time" and get replied to with "Well, we did it". Any expectations like that are up to the group. When they'll clear the content with our without is also debatable, opinion, and speculation. Some groups are not as skilled as others so they need any crutch they can get ahold of.

[KrayZ33]

It wasn't exactly misinformation, he specifically said "We do not expect healers to contribute to DPS. " He acknowledged that some cutting edge groups will utilize this for pushing. He said he firmly believes that it shouldn't be mandatory and they do not have the expectation for them to.
.

It's true he said that back in 2016 or something. But it isn't true anymore, if it ever was in the first place. I can't remember HW DPS checks and I'm willing to say that most players didn't play as "well" as now back then as lots of stuff was clunky and imbalanced in the first place.

The official statement was that they take DPS + Tanks together and reduce it by 10-15%.

Today that's just not how it works, and if it would work, healers are basically just a hindrance to the raid because there isn't even enough healing to do for one healer.
Considering that, at the time, current Ex-Trials got cleared without *any* healer whatsoever I wonder what they are even good for.

Must suck to play a class that is neither needed for healing, nor DPS or tanking.

So whatever he said back then doesn't really matter anymore.

[Necromantic]

It's true he said that back in 2016 or something. But it isn't true anymore, if it ever was in the first place. I can't remember HW DPS checks and I'm willing to say that most players didn't play as "well" as now back then as lots of stuff was clunky and imbalanced in the first place.

The official statement was that they take DPS + Tanks together and reduce it by 10-15%.

Today that's just not how it works, and if it would work, healers are basically just a hindrance to the raid because there isn't even enough healing to do for one healer.
Considering that, at the time, current Ex-Trials got cleared without *any* healer whatsoever I wonder what they are even good for.

Must suck to play a class that is neither needed for healing, nor DPS or tanking.

So whatever he said back then doesn't really matter anymore.

Do you have an updated stance from him I can look at?

[The Casualty]

Not you... but in general, it does make me wonder where the honest line is drawn in the sand in that regard. The most popular response I see is "Our healer makes up for 30% of our DPS, that's huge". With how common that "30%" is, it makes me wonder if one of the other DPS are AFK the entire time, all the DPS are severely underperforming, the tank is just popping provoke and not attacking or what.

I went back and looked at some of my DSR logs, both in general and specifically for those 2 phases, and our heals were doing a combined ~12-15% of the team DPS. Phase 3 might have been a bit skewed though, as several of the group would hold off on DPS to let others build gauge and delay for the next phase.

If you compare that to some random logs for execution or speed, that seems to be about normal.

As Moralgy said, there is absolutely 0% chance you are clearing that fight if both healers are not actively participating with their damage.

Outside of ultimates, it is probably possible to do the first 2 floors of any given savage tier week 1 with 0 DPS healers, however, after that it quickly becomes unmanageable.

For example:
In P5S, you need ~49500 DPS to kill right before enrage. Assuming the tanks were doing a decent first week amount of 13k together, that would require all of your remaining dps to achieve 36500 amongst the 4 of them, or about 9125 per person.

In p7S, you need ~58800 DPS to kill right before enrage. Assuming the tanks are doing 14k together, which this time around would be 95th percentile or higher in the first week depending on which tanks you brought, that leaves your DPS to do 44800 combined, or 11,200 per person. According to fflogs, that looks to be the upper limit maximum for Samurai right now.

Even looking to current with all of the gear that people have amassed since savage went live, Agdistis would still be largely unmanageable without decent healer contribution.

[Necromantic]

*snip*

I'm sure many are going to have their anecdotes on the subject and that's fine. I don't believe they're reference points. I only say this because I've been gaming for longer than some here have even been alive and if I had a nickel for every time someone said something was impossible or had a 0% chance and not only happened but isn't uncommon, I'd be able to buy you a venti carmel machiatto. But hey!, they're always appreciated in the discussion!

[The Casualty]

I'm sure many are going to have their anecdotes on the subject and that's fine. I don't believe they're reference points. I only say this because I've been gaming for longer than some here have even been alive and if I had a nickel for every time someone said something was impossible or had a 0% chance and not only happened but isn't uncommon, I'd be able to buy you a venti carmel machiatto. But hey!, they're always appreciated in the discussion!

Disagreeing with math by handwaving "I have experience" seems rather reductive and ultimately dismissive, but whatever - I'm actually curious though. With your experience of playing games, could you spitball a scenario outside of waiting to just vastly outgear the content in which a team could overcome the damage deficit of no healer dps in say, P7S or phase 3 or 7 of DSR, knowing that in all of those situations, you essentially already have 100% uptime?

At some point, for sure P7S/P8S will be clearable with 0 DPS healers. However, their design to have savage clearable first week is at odds with the sentiment that they do not factor healer DPS. Both of those statements cannot be true.

[Necromantic]

Disagreeing with math by handwaving "I have experience" seems rather reductive and ultimately dismissive, but whatever - I'm actually curious though. With your experience of playing games, could you spitball a scenario outside of waiting to just vastly outgear the content in which a team could overcome the damage deficit of no healer dps in say, P7S or phase 3 or 7 of DSR, knowing that in all of those situations, you essentially already have 100% uptime?

At some point, for sure P7S/P8S will be clearable with 0 DPS healers. However, their design to have savage clearable first week is at odds with the sentiment that they do not factor healer DPS. Both of those statements cannot be true.

I don't think anyone is handwaving. I've just seen several posts of math, math against math, etc. It's not to be dismissive, I've just seen enough of it to where it's mostly just numbers and speculation combined into 1 so I take it with a grain of salt personally. It isn't meant to say someone isn't being honest, it's just not worth the investment to determine.

[Grinning Serpent]

I don't think anyone is handwaving. I've just seen several posts of math, math against math, etc. It's not to be dismissive, I've just seen enough of it to where it's mostly just numbers and speculation combined into 1 so I take it with a grain of salt personally. It isn't meant to say someone isn't being honest, it's just not worth the investment to determine.

Can you please reference where "math against math" indicates that healer DPS is not a requirement for challenging content before it's simply outgeared/outscaled? As The Casualty indicates, pretty much any and all challenging content (first and second floor savage fights are at the edge of what most would call "challenging," but it can vary depending on specific tier) *requires* meaningful DPS from the healers.

Heavensward DPS checks were even more strict than they are now. Gordias was so strict it almost killed savage raiding in general, and Midas was only marginally less strict. Creator was tuned much more loosely, though. So even back in 2016, Yoshida was flat-out lying to players if he was saying "we do not factor around healer DPS for savages." Or perhaps he was assuming the group had full tome gear or something?

[Necromantic]

Can you please reference where "math against math" indicates that healer DPS is not a requirement for challenging content before it's simply outgeared/outscaled? As The Casualty indicates, pretty much any and all challenging content (first and second floor savage fights are at the edge of what most would call "challenging," but it can vary depending on specific tier) *requires* meaningful DPS from the healers.

Heavensward DPS checks were even more strict than they are now. Gordias was so strict it almost killed savage raiding in general, and Midas was only marginally less strict. Creator was tuned much more loosely, though. So even back in 2016, Yoshida was flat-out lying to players if he was saying "we do not factor around healer DPS for savages." Or perhaps he was assuming the group had full tome gear or something?

Math against math is when people use each other's "numbers", "data", "hypothesis", etc trying to prove the other wrong. I've seen this countless times. I know what The Casualty said. I only said I don't care to go back/forth on the subject. It's (for some reason) an overly sensitive subject that for some reason or another, seems to absolutely enrage people to the point of ridiculous proportions. I've seen people given death threats and called the most unnecessary things over this topic alone.

People can agree or disagree with Yoshi. I never said he was right or wrong. I only used him as a reference point because if I had to choose between the guy who designs the game and a random person on a message forum... you know the rest.

[Grinning Serpent]

Math against math is when people use each other's "numbers", "data", "hypothesis", etc trying to prove the other wrong. I've seen this countless times. I know what The Casualty said. I only said I don't care to go back/forth on the subject. It's (for some reason) an overly sensitive subject that for some reason or another, seems to absolutely enrage people to the point of ridiculous proportions. I've seen people given death threats and called the most unnecessary things over this topic alone.

People can agree or disagree with Yoshi. I never said he was right or wrong. I only used him as a reference point because if I had to choose between the guy who designs the game and a random person on a message forum... you know the rest.

Yeah, that's fair. Death threats is sadly just business as usual on social media. It's why I don't use it. I've even largely stopped using Reddit.