If the devs admit that PvP sucks with grinding for gear: why is PvE different?

[epigramx]

PvE in practice is still people competing with other people; even the most casual guild in the world celebrate when they beat in realm-ranking other guilds which is explicitly them VS other people in other guilds; even inside the same guild people compete with each other about who is best.

It goes without saying that PvP is just the same with even fewer steps; why is PvE suddenly so much different; it appears the main reason they gate min-maxing for end-game is to prolong subscription money because there is absolutely no sense if "PvP sucks to grind" but PvE not.

[Soisoisoi]

Because you're fighting NPCs in PvE, it's scripted, the fight is the same every single pull and has number checks to progress, and you getting gear increases said numbers and makes people happy.

PvP is fighting players, it's not scripted, and what changes is how you play. Just like any other form of PvP, it should be about your ability and not the gear. People playing bad and beating you purely because they have massively better gear is just absurd in PvP. Having a base gear set (honour/conquest) is reasonable due to the nature of MMORPGs, but the shitshow of SL was far too much.

[epigramx]

Because you're fighting NPCs in PvE, it's scripted, the fight is the same every single pull and has number checks to progress, and you getting gear increases said numbers and makes people happy.

PvP is fighting players, it's not scripted, and what changes is how you play. Just like any other form of PvP, it should be about your ability and not the gear. People playing bad and beating you purely because they have massively better gear is just absurd in PvP. Having a base gear set (honour/conquest) is reasonable due to the nature of MMORPGs, but the shitshow of SL was far too much.

It's the same with extra steps. Nobody would care to rank in PvE if it was only them and NPCs; they explictly want to rank against other people; also inside the same team they constantly compete with each other and not with NPCs.

The argument can be reversed on top too (partly): "you don't exactly fight a human in PvP but the SPELLS the devs gave that human to play with".

[Palapop]

Do you even know how long it takes to farm full upgraded honor set in Shadowlands?

And how even longer it tales to farm full upgraded conquest set? And also what skill it takes to reach highest lvl upgrade compared to pve content?

This comes from 2.5k pvp and couple CEs player.

Pvp vendors were AMAZING.... BEFORE Legion.

You have 1 tier of honor gear, 1 of conquest.
And every new season, last seasons conquest becomes new seasons honor gear.

[epigramx]

Do you even know how long it takes to farm full upgraded honor set in Shadowlands?

And how even longer it tales to farm full upgraded conquest set? And also what skill it takes to reach highest lvl upgrade compared to pve content?

This comes from 2.5k pvp and couple CEs player.

Pvp vendors were AMAZING.... BEFORE Legion.

You have 1 tier of honor gear, 1 of conquest.
And every new season, last seasons conquest becomes new seasons honor gear.

Perhaps it sucks for PvP too in the latest updates (I do not know the PvP details at all). But the point was the devs have absolutely admitted in the past that it can suck to grind for gear for PvP because they had tried to equalize the gear automatically (perhaps multiple times through the years).

And it never made sense why it's supposedly so different for PvE when in reality most people care to min-max in there because they compete against people in ranks.

[apraxic]

Because when you stop grinding for gear in PvE, the raid and dungeon bosses don’t keep grinding their gear up like the rest of the PvP players do.

[Rinnegan2]

In PvE, players can gear up which makes the PvE content easier. PvP, on the other hand, never gets easier. If you gear up in PvP and climb the ladder then you keep fighting players with the same gear as you - it doesn't matter how much you gear up in PvP, your opponents will also have that gear. Imagine a raid boss getting stronger with every upgrade that drops for your raid - that's what happens in PvP. For this reason, having gear upgrades in (ranked) PvP is completely useless. Gear upgrades in PvE, on the other hand, are needed so that players can progress through PvE content without having to massively increase their skill.

On the casual PvP side, taking your op PvE gear into an unranked battleground (as was the case back in Vanilla-Cata) was obviously completely fine. In ranked PvP, on the other hand, you can remove gear progression because everyone has the same item level anyway.

[unbound]

PvE is about going on an adventure. The purpose of better gear is supposed to be about moving forward onto better, more difficult adventures. While some people certainly compete with others about how fast or effective they are in adventuring, not everyone does and that competition is not the primary function of PvE.

PvP is supposed to be about competition. The purpose of that competition is show that you are a better player than others. While some people certainly want the advantage of better gear to reduce that competition, that isn't how competition is supposed to work.

Imagine two baseball teams play each other, but one team gets to use special balls that fly faster when pitched and special bats that hit 50% harder than regular bats. You may like to be the person on that team, but no one is going to confuse it for an actual competition. No one who wants to actually play competitively wants gear in PvP.

If you want gear in PvP, you aren't interested in competition.

[epigramx]

PvP, on the other hand, never gets easier.

It's the same with extra steps. It never gets easier to rank in PvE because the competition is 100% humans (including inside-the-guild competition).
It's just an annoying grind that delays the actual competition because the entire competition has to grind to compete.

- - - Updated - - -

PvE is about going on an adventure.

PvP is supposed to be about competition.

No. Even the most casual guild in the world celebrate if they raise rank in their realm (even if they claim they don't care before they do it).
And for the hard core people: it goes without saying PvE for them is purely competition for rankings and absolutely nothing else.

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And I could flip the argument against itself. PvP can be also fun. Why is PvP only competition?

[Hotmail]

Another epigram thread, another batch of popcorn.

[saintminya]

Unlike with PVE, there is no mandatory grind for PVP. Even if you lack relatively current gear of any quality, you can still excel through being adept at your class and/or sticking to a solid strategy. The same can be said for PVE only to a certain extent, as you will not succeed if the rest of the party doesn't balance out your low gear score.

[loras]

Because you're fighting NPCs in PvE, it's scripted, the fight is the same every single pull and has number checks to progress, and you getting gear increases said numbers and makes people happy.

PvP is fighting players, it's not scripted, and what changes is how you play. Just like any other form of PvP, it should be about your ability and not the gear. People playing bad and beating you purely because they have massively better gear is just absurd in PvP. Having a base gear set (honour/conquest) is reasonable due to the nature of MMORPGs, but the shitshow of SL was far too much.

This, it's fundamentally different.
Which is not to say i like the PvE repetitive grindfest, but no point in argueing about taste.

[Thes]

Unlike with PVE, there is no mandatory grind for PVP. Even if you lack relatively current gear of any quality, you can still excel through being adept at your class and/or sticking to a solid strategy. The same can be said for PVE only to a certain extent, as you will not succeed if the rest of the party doesn't balance out your low gear score.

You will get obliterated in PVP if your gear is seasons behind.

[saintminya]

You will get obliterated in PVP if your gear is seasons behind.

In all likelihood yes, and such was implied. So long as you have contemporary questing gear, or even last seasons gear, and know what you're doing, then you can easily prevail. Skill and strategy won't save you in a raid/dungeon if you're too under-geared to deal or withstand enough damage.

[Unlimited Power]

It's the same with extra steps. Nobody would care to rank in PvE if it was only them and NPCs; they explictly want to rank against other people; also inside the same team they constantly compete with each other and not with NPCs.

The argument can be reversed on top too (partly): "you don't exactly fight a human in PvP but the SPELLS the devs gave that human to play with".

I don't play PvP so can't comment on that aspect, but I enjoy raiding every now and then. I just like clearing normal and heroic.

I don't care how my group ranks or how I rank as long as the bosses die.

Gear is a means to an end, and better gear makes it possible or easier to kill bosses at higher difficulties, but I'll never care enough to step foot into Mythic.

[Lolites]

I don't care how my group ranks or how I rank as long as the bosses die.

ofc not, most people dont, its just delusion of OP, which he already voiced in other thread and was told its bullshit, so he made another thread where he weaved it into another topic, and keeps pretending he is right... its kinda sad...

[Squigglyo]

There is no competition with PVE.

Raiding, outside of the tiny minority, couldnt care less what rank their guild is or whether they are faster than other groups.


PVP is litteraly a competition.
Every game is, and the entire ranking system is.

[Palapop]

Unlike with PVE, there is no mandatory grind for PVP. Even if you lack relatively current gear of any quality, you can still excel through being adept at your class and/or sticking to a solid strategy. The same can be said for PVE only to a certain extent, as you will not succeed if the rest of the party doesn't balance out your low gear score.

I chuckled on this 1

[epigramx]

Because when you stop grinding for gear in PvE, the raid and dungeon bosses don’t keep grinding their gear up like the rest of the PvP players do.

It doesn't matter. You still compete with real humans. The hard core players very obviously but also the casual guilds care if they manage to kill something earlier than other casual guilds.

- - - Updated - - -

Unlike with PVE, there is no mandatory grind for PVP. Even if you lack relatively current gear of any quality, you can still excel through being adept at your class and/or sticking to a solid strategy. The same can be said for PVE only to a certain extent, as you will not succeed if the rest of the party doesn't balance out your low gear score.

That just describes the status quo (how it currently works). It doesn't answer why it is better.

It's probably worse in the long term to force people who love PvE to grind for their gear.

- - - Updated - - -

This, it's fundamentally different.
Which is not to say i like the PvE repetitive grindfest, but no point in argueing about taste.

It is differently designed obviously at that. When I said "same": it was about the special case of saying "grinding for gear sucks in PvP"(but miracously it doesn't for PvE).

And since you agree it sucks to grind for PvE: I don't see why you support them (most of naysayers in here try to prove that it's supposedly better to grind for PvE gear).

- - - Updated - - -

There is no competition with PVE.

Raiding, outside of the tiny minority, couldnt care less what rank their guild is or whether they are faster than other groups.


PVP is litteraly a competition.
Every game is, and the entire ranking system is.

How do you explain there is a world-first race in PvE (teams VS teams of actual real players) that most people either play in or follow it if there is "no competition"?
How do you explain that even the most casual guild in the world celebrate when they raise ranking against other guilds (even if they thought they don't care)?

And the cherry on top: why is PvP never for fun and only for competition but miraculously PvE is supposedly only for fun and never for competition?

[Thes]

In all likelihood yes, and such was implied. So long as you have contemporary questing gear, or even last seasons gear, and know what you're doing, then you can easily prevail. Skill and strategy won't save you in a raid/dungeon if you're too under-geared to deal or withstand enough damage.

With last seasons gear you might stand a small chance but current season pvp gear vs. questing gear is worlds apart and you will get deleted in 1 global.