Give the Horde better leaders.

[username993720]

King Varian Wrynn:
I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.

...this is language I kept for my rewrite, since this makes Varian very much the racist leader.

This makes Varian a great character, unlike Anduin who'd be advocating for peace even if his relatives had just been murdered by Horde members.

Horde has never been properly managed. It was all downhill after Garrosh. Mainly because every Horde leader seems to either be soulless or a throwaway character.

To make people care your leaders need longevity and meaningful accomplishments. The only Horde leader left with that claim is Thrall and he's a one dimensional mary sue.

Worst example of all is Vol'jin. The way that character was managed is the prototype for why Horde lore in WoW is meaningless.

Horde Warchiefs should be Orcs and Orcs only.

[Aucald]

Worst example of all is Vol'jin. The way that character was managed is the prototype for why Horde lore in WoW is meaningless.

Vol'jin actually has some great lore, but sadly the majority of it is secreted away in the novel Shadows of the Horde, which goes both into Vol'jin's past and his formative journey following Garrosh's assassination attempt in Pandaria. Almost none of his development in Shadows of the Horde is echoed in-game, unfortunately; leaving Vol'jin a hurriedly sketched character who receives little development otherwise.

[Powerogue]

I really don't get the dichotomy of "No, please, not another faction war story! We've had two, that's more than enough!" combined with "let's replace nearly every single level-headed Horde leader with dead supervillains. This cannot possibly end badly."

A lot of this really comes down to people on this forum thinking if someone makes a mistake, they are an idiot and a bad character. If they don't make a mistake, they're an even worse character because they're a Mary Sue. As characters either make right or wrong decisions, you flip immediately between one or the other, with absolutely no one qualifying as "a good character", unless, apparently, they commit all out genocide and try to destroy the Alliance and Horde.

To touch on one, Saurfang participates in the orcish wars on both planets, committing great evil, but ultimately being repentant and trying to build something better and honorable under Thrall. He advises Garrosh in WotLK, who ultimately fails to heed said guidance and he helps us in Siege of Orgrimmar. In BFA that sense of honor is challenged by failing to stop Sylvanas before she burns Teldrassil. Anduin ultimately helps rekindle the hope in Saurfang and sneaks him out of Stormwind, where he would eventually be instrumental in stopping the Fourth War.

Some of the things he did were honorable, some were dishonorable but for the greater good, some were straight up evil but he tried to make up for them. It makes for an interesting character and interesting story.

I want characters like that, whether they be faction leaders or no.

[Grazrug]

This makes Varian a great character, unlike Anduin who'd be advocating for peace even if his relatives had just been murdered by Horde members.



Horde Warchiefs should be Orcs and Orcs only.

I disagree. The Horde leader should be the strongest of us. That was true for Garrosh and Sylvanas so it fits.

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I really don't get the dichotomy of "No, please, not another faction war story! We've had two, that's more than enough!" combined with "let's replace nearly every single level-headed Horde leader with dead supervillains. This cannot possibly end badly."

A lot of this really comes down to people on this forum thinking if someone makes a mistake, they are an idiot and a bad character. If they don't make a mistake, they're an even worse character because they're a Mary Sue. As characters either make right or wrong decisions, you flip immediately between one or the other, with absolutely no one qualifying as "a good character", unless, apparently, they commit all out genocide and try to destroy the Alliance and Horde.

To touch on one, Saurfang participates in the orcish wars on both planets, committing great evil, but ultimately being repentant and trying to build something better and honorable under Thrall. He advises Garrosh in WotLK, who ultimately fails to heed said guidance and he helps us in Siege of Orgrimmar. In BFA that sense of honor is challenged by failing to stop Sylvanas before she burns Teldrassil. Anduin ultimately helps rekindle the hope in Saurfang and sneaks him out of Stormwind, where he would eventually be instrumental in stopping the Fourth War.

Some of the things he did were honorable, some were dishonorable but for the greater good, some were straight up evil but he tried to make up for them. It makes for an interesting character and interesting story.

I want characters like that, whether they be faction leaders or no.

I don't want either Baine nor Thrall anywhere near the Horde leadership. They are the reason we have peace now. Without them Zandalar could have had their revenge against Kul Tiras.

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King Varian Wrynn:
I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked.
The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come.
I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.

...this is language I kept for my rewrite, since this makes Varian very much the racist leader.

I wish any Horde leader had this much of a spine. Varian wa struly the best any faction could wish for.

[Alcsaar]

Who gives a shit who the characters are. They are as strong or as weak as Blizzard needs them to be in the given expansion, regardless of whether they're well known strong lore characters or not.

Just look at the BS Sylvanas storyline, Single handedly beats the Lich King? Come the fuck on. They made some hardcore shit up to make that happen and they'll do it again.

[Grazrug]

I don't see this subservience. Genn is in a unique situation as a king without a state whose people survive at the sufferance of Tyrande and Varian and later entirely at Anduin when they lose Teldrassil. Everyone else does what they want more or less. I'll agree that at least one specific situation was problematic (Jaina in ICC) but mostly we see Tyrande and the Council of Three Hammers doing their thing; remember, Varian actually had no authority to act against Moira which is why what he was planning was described both as clandestine and as a coup. Tyrande still needs to agree with Varian in A Little Patience because this was a situation where the Alliance army was acting and as I said in that case the High King has absolute authority.
Which is not really that special; a clear line of hierarchy is needed. Plus by every account Stormwind has the biggest population by far in the Alliance. The only ones who are comparable are the Dwarves but the Dwarves are in a unique political situation of a regent that rules as part of a council which makes them unsuited for assuming a leadership role (I really hope we get to see Dagran take over the throne and unite the Three Hammers at some point in the next few xpacs).

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I consider this Metzen's greatest failure. They built the lore of the clans from the start and imo that has always been the most interesting part of the Orcs; the many clans each with distinct traditions. Thrall should have built the Horde by reviving the old clans. They could have used Vanilla to show the presence of each clan and focus on a small number of new clan chiefs. Instead the only clans that get any focus are the Frostwolves (but they are on the other side of the world), the Warsong (without actually giving them significant NPCs) and to a lesser extent the Burning Blade (but as antagonists).

Yeah the Orcs got shafted. From a tribal society with different clans whom all have unique flavors to a green blob that is just a bunch of barbarian warriors without differences.

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Who gives a shit who the characters are. They are as strong or as weak as Blizzard needs them to be in the given expansion, regardless of whether they're well known strong lore characters or not.

Just look at the BS Sylvanas storyline, Single handedly beats the Lich King? Come the fuck on. They made some hardcore shit up to make that happen and they'll do it again.

And Jaina left Zuldazar without a scratch on her despite the Horde heroes trying their best to halt her running away.

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I think the goal with the position of High King was to kind of give the Alliance a marquee character that would more or less identify them as a faction, much in the same fashion that the current Warchief tended to epitomize the Horde. Before Varian sort of took the reigns as supreme commander, the Alliance player base was essentially fractionated under their leader of preference - which sort of had the unintended side-effect of diluting their faction identity in comparison to the Horde. Whether or not Varian and Anduin actually successfully accomplished the goal of unifying the Alliance under a sort of one-person banner is kind of up in the air, in my view.

Lore-wise, the power of the High King was demonstrably less than that of the former seat of Warchief, from a political standpoint. But that, too, meshes well with the Alliance as a political structure as opposed to the Horde prior to the close of the Fourth War.

At least the Alliance has a central figure that can count as the leader for the whole team. The Horde lost just that when we replaced the Warchief with a council. If history goes by, then councils get no attention from Blizzard. Just ask the dwarfs.

[Aucald]

At least the Alliance has a central figure that can count as the leader for the whole team. The Horde lost just that when we replaced the Warchief with a council. If history goes by, then councils get no attention from Blizzard. Just ask the dwarfs.

The Council of Three Hammers is active and gets a good deal of attention even now, so I'm not sure what is meant by that last part. They had pronounced roles in Cata (being part of Theramore's defense), and in MoP with an entire scenario devoted to their internal politics, as well as in Garrosh's trial which showcased their formation. They coordinated Azeroth's defense in Legion and were also featured prominently in Exploring Azeroth: The Eastern Kingdoms. Most recently they were a key part of the Dark Iron recruitment chain in BfA as the Dark Irons finally fell under Moira's control, and thus that of the Three Hammers as a whole.

[Grazrug]

The Council of Three Hammers is active and gets a good deal of attention even now, so I'm not sure what is meant by that last part. They had pronounced roles in Cata (being part of Theramore's defense), and in MoP with an entire scenario devoted to their internal politics, as well as in Garrosh's trial which showcased their formation. They coordinated Azeroth's defense in Legion and were also featured prominently in Exploring Azeroth: The Eastern Kingdoms. Most recently they were a key part of the Dark Iron recruitment chain in BfA as the Dark Irons finally fell under Moira's control, and thus that of the Three Hammers as a whole.

Are you joking? Muradin, Moira and Falstad have been ignored since Cataclysm. We know nothing about the internal politics of Ironforge. The same will happen to the Horde council. Blizzard looked for an excuse to completley write the Horde out of the cosmic plot and they found one. The alliance has Alleria and Turalyon with void and light but not a single Horde leader possess any greater magical power that could make them relevant against the neutral evil big bad guy.

[Aucald]

Are you joking? Muradin, Moira and Falstad have been ignored since Cataclysm. We know nothing about the internal politics of Ironforge. The same will happen to the Horde council. Blizzard looked for an excuse to completley write the Horde out of the cosmic plot and they found one. The alliance has Alleria and Turalyon with void and light but not a single Horde leader possess any greater magical power that could make them relevant against the neutral evil big bad guy.

Like I said above, they were last featured in the recent Exploring Azeroth book - which was well after Cata, in addition to their roles in MoP. The internal politics of Ironforge haven't really changed since their issues were more or less ironed out in MoP, during the "Blood in the Snow" scenario. There was a bit of a kerfuffle when Magni animated once more following his ritual in Cata, but since Magni essentially abdicated to assume his mantle as Azeroth's Speaker, there wasn't a real disruption to the Council's set-up.

[Le Conceptuel]

How come this guy seems to post the exact same thread every few months? Regardless, "lol evul" doesn't substitute for nuance. You just listed a bunch of antagonists (and Chen, for some reason), and the only ones which would actually have much use in the plot would be (pre-BC) Kael'Thas and Gallywix. The rest are just typical edgelord "lol look how kewl and evuhl".

I'd much prefer characters with nuance. WC3 Kael'Thas had nuance, but as did Cairne before he died because old people don't sell merch and people want a Young Super-Kewl Hero On A Journey. These would both make interesting leaders despite their differences. Underking Dragrul was not a nuanced or interesting character, nor does he adequately represent the race you assigned him to. Gallywix lacked much nuance, but was certainly a good character who represented his race very excellently. Doomhammer would be nice if he weren't super-dead in a way that didn't emerge from the dumbest possible circumstances like Kael's death did and actually fulfilled some purpose in the plot. Outside of Doomhammer, Gallywix, Chen, and Kael'Thas (once against assuming WC3-era), none of these characters would make the Horde better and would just reduce them into a cackling coterie of one-dimensional villains.

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I really don't get the dichotomy of "No, please, not another faction war story! We've had two, that's more than enough!" combined with "let's replace nearly every single level-headed Horde leader with dead supervillains. This cannot possibly end badly."

A lot of this really comes down to people on this forum thinking if someone makes a mistake, they are an idiot and a bad character. If they don't make a mistake, they're an even worse character because they're a Mary Sue. As characters either make right or wrong decisions, you flip immediately between one or the other, with absolutely no one qualifying as "a good character", unless, apparently, they commit all out genocide and try to destroy the Alliance and Horde.

To touch on one, Saurfang participates in the orcish wars on both planets, committing great evil, but ultimately being repentant and trying to build something better and honorable under Thrall. He advises Garrosh in WotLK, who ultimately fails to heed said guidance and he helps us in Siege of Orgrimmar. In BFA that sense of honor is challenged by failing to stop Sylvanas before she burns Teldrassil. Anduin ultimately helps rekindle the hope in Saurfang and sneaks him out of Stormwind, where he would eventually be instrumental in stopping the Fourth War.

Some of the things he did were honorable, some were dishonorable but for the greater good, some were straight up evil but he tried to make up for them. It makes for an interesting character and interesting story.

I want characters like that, whether they be faction leaders or no.

Agreed, That's what actually makes decent characters—well, at the very least until the BfA bit. He became a tad insufferable there since he was flanderized from a regretful old warrior who maintained strong convictions into a mopey fuck who died to finally make the Horde give up on their most incompetent and evil leader in history.

[Powerogue]

I disagree. The Horde leader should be the strongest of us. That was true for Garrosh and Sylvanas so it fits.

There is a very, very big difference between people who perceive themselves as strong and/or justified in their actions and good leaders. Both of them ultimately betrayed the Horde to pursue their own ambitions, causing untold destruction as outright supervillains in the league of Kil'Jaeden, Sargeras, Deathwing, and the Lich King.



Ambition is a young and reckless Garrosh stomping on toy figures, talking big about how he would win the war in Northrend by crushing all the Alliance and all the undead with nothing but overwhelming force and confidence. Strength is the figures like Saurfang and Thrall that made sure there would still be a Horde at the end of the battle. Families to return to, and times of peace in which to recover. (At least until some big-ass dragon bursts up out of the planet, but such is life on Azeroth)

I wish any Horde leader had this much of a spine. Varian was truly the best any faction could wish for.

At the time, Varian and Garrosh were nearly equal...in their hot tempers having to be held in check by those around them. The difference is Varian grew as a person. The "weakness" mocked by the Legion https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...on-of-the-wolf that was ultimately the reason why there was still both a Horde and Alliance to stop them in the Legion expansion. That which would ultimately allow Anduin to finish what his father started. To do what a king must do.

[Raisei]

I disagree. The Horde leader should be the strongest of us. That was true for Garrosh and Sylvanas so it fits.

I hope you get your wish. Nothing will destroy the Horde faster then getting those two back.

I just do not understand how you are not seeing this. Garrosh exiled halve the Horde and surrounded himself with nothing but Yes-Man and other psychopaths because he was such a weakling that he couldn't deal with people criticing him. The only thing he was strong at was stealing glory from others. Like those tusks he is wearing. Great trophy. Just not his.

Sylvanas literally made a deal with the devil and was happily feeding the Horde into a meatgrinder. What shining future do you see under her leadership? What does it take for you to understand that she DID NOT CARE about the Horde. You were nothing but pawns to her and when you had no more use you were killed off. We literally see her tell Azshara to murder the Horde Heroes.
You have her own words, you have the plot that told you so repeatedly. But still you would kiss her feet and worship her?

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And Jaina left Zuldazar without a scratch on her despite the Horde heroes trying their best to halt her running away.

That is not what happened. She took quite a few wounds from it, she says so later, when talking with Anduin. You should be glad that she even entertained a fight instead of just bombarding the Horde ship into splinters with her arcane cannons. If she had really used her full power then those Horde heroes would have been dead long before they even reached her.

[Grazrug]

I hope you get your wish. Nothing will destroy the Horde faster then getting those two back.

I just do not understand how you are not seeing this. Garrosh exiled halve the Horde and surrounded himself with nothing but Yes-Man and other psychopaths because he was such a weakling that he couldn't deal with people criticing him. The only thing he was strong at was stealing glory from others. Like those tusks he is wearing. Great trophy. Just not his.

Sylvanas literally made a deal with the devil and was happily feeding the Horde into a meatgrinder. What shining future do you see under her leadership? What does it take for you to understand that she DID NOT CARE about the Horde. You were nothing but pawns to her and when you had no more use you were killed off. We literally see her tell Azshara to murder the Horde Heroes.
You have her own words, you have the plot that told you so repeatedly. But still you would kiss her feet and worship her?

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That is not what happened. She took quite a few wounds from it, she says so later, when talking with Anduin. You should be glad that she even entertained a fight instead of just bombarding the Horde ship into splinters with her arcane cannons. If she had really used her full power then those Horde heroes would have been dead long before they even reached her.

Jaina is just a mage. Players killed titans and old gods. If it wasn't for her ridiculos plot armor she would not have survived that fight.

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There is a very, very big difference between people who perceive themselves as strong and/or justified in their actions and good leaders. Both of them ultimately betrayed the Horde to pursue their own ambitions, causing untold destruction as outright supervillains in the league of Kil'Jaeden, Sargeras, Deathwing, and the Lich King.



Ambition is a young and reckless Garrosh stomping on toy figures, talking big about how he would win the war in Northrend by crushing all the Alliance and all the undead with nothing but overwhelming force and confidence. Strength is the figures like Saurfang and Thrall that made sure there would still be a Horde at the end of the battle. Families to return to, and times of peace in which to recover. (At least until some big-ass dragon bursts up out of the planet, but such is life on Azeroth)



At the time, Varian and Garrosh were nearly equal...in their hot tempers having to be held in check by those around them. The difference is Varian grew as a person. The "weakness" mocked by the Legion https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/st...on-of-the-wolf that was ultimately the reason why there was still both a Horde and Alliance to stop them in the Legion expansion. That which would ultimately allow Anduin to finish what his father started. To do what a king must do.

They didn't betray the Horde . The Horde betrayed them first. They chose a fragile peace with our actual enemy over the survival of the Horde. In the post Bfa world it is the Alliance that dominates both continents. And it shows in Dragonflight. Just look at the emmessaries for the black flight. Both Wrathion and Sabellian have huge ties to Stormwind.

[VladlTutushkin]

Jaina is just a mage. Players killed titans and old gods. If it wasn't for her ridiculos plot armor she would not have survived that fight.

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They didn't betray the Horde . The Horde betrayed them first. They chose a fragile peace with our actual enemy over the survival of the Horde. In the post Bfa world it is the Alliance that dominates both continents. And it shows in Dragonflight. Just look at the emmessaries for the black flight. Both Wrathion and Sabellian have huge ties to Stormwind.

Horde would have died if they decided to fight Alliance to the end. Faction would have collapsed and than end up finished off by literally any random threat.

Also thats how they justify literally any ceasefire or peace treaty between two factions.

Oh and also Sylvanas served Jailer, not the Horde. If all went as she desired there would be no Horde, just souls fuelling Jailer.

[Flarelaine]

I consider this Metzen's greatest failure. They built the lore of the clans from the start and imo that has always been the most interesting part of the Orcs; the many clans each with distinct traditions. Thrall should have built the Horde by reviving the old clans. They could have used Vanilla to show the presence of each clan and focus on a small number of new clan chiefs. Instead the only clans that get any focus are the Frostwolves (but they are on the other side of the world), the Warsong (without actually giving them significant NPCs) and to a lesser extent the Burning Blade (but as antagonists).

The whole point of Thrall's new Horde was erasing tribal loyalties. Just like Genghis Khan built his horde by erasing previous tribal identities. The game would have richer lore with tribal folklore, but it would make no sense in-game.

[Feanoro]

Why do people keep answering the Old Horde RPer?

The whole point of Thrall's new Horde was erasing tribal loyalties.

Do what? That was the point of the Legion's Horde, to weld the often squabbling clans on Draenor into a single minded army. Thrall's Horde was supposed to redeem them away from that corruption, back towards their roots, but the writers never followed through on it.

[Shadowferal]

I think Thrall's idea was little better than a poorly executed writer's ploy so there wouldn't be any focus of the lack of cultural specifics of the tribes. I'll grant that it's easier when homogenized, but...

[Aucald]

Thrall didn't intend for the Horde to return completely back to its roots as it was on Draenor-that-was, either. He obviously wanted to undo the Legion's corruption of his people, but he also thought the clan structure was in part responsible for the corruption of his people to begin with, and that the new reality of the Horde (being no longer comprised of solely orcs and their proxies) but also other entire nation-states like the tauren tribes of Mulgore and the Darkspear trolls, made the old structure obsolete. The clans of course still exist in orcish society, and are still recognized, but are no longer held up as formal separation between orcs. Clan recognition among orcs is now a kind of alternative ethnicity as opposed to a separate community.

[Nymrohd]

The whole point of Thrall's new Horde was erasing tribal loyalties. Just like Genghis Khan built his horde by erasing previous tribal identities. The game would have richer lore with tribal folklore, but it would make no sense in-game.

I honestly never understood WHY though. Why did tribal loyalties jeopardize his new Horde? If anything, clan structures and competition would place the Orcs in a more even ground with other members of the Horde.

[Aucald]

I honestly never understood WHY though. Why did tribal loyalties jeopardize his new Horde? If anything, clan structures and competition would place the Orcs in a more even ground with other members of the Horde.

The original clans of Draenor had distinct issues working together with aligned goals - and the one time they were more or less forced to was due to demonic corruption. Thrall no doubt feels that for the orcs to survive and thrive in a new homeland, a new world, and most especially one still majority opposed to their existence due to prior conflicts, they needed to present a unified front without clan separations between them. The same is arguably true for the rest of the Horde client states, who've also largely set aside their internal differences to coalesce into a single identity as the Horde, albeit not quite perfectly or completely, as is to be expected.