If the devs admit that PvP sucks with grinding for gear: why is PvE different?

[Mojo03]

It's the same under a layer of artificial extra steps. The true purpose of PvE players is to feel more powerful than other players at actually playing PvE.

Anyone that truly enjoys the highest levels of PvE knows their highest enjoyment is actually playing PvE and doing it well and efficiently.

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Both of your points are assumptions.

I don't disagree with what I'm assuming you want in the game, which is PVE content balanced around skill, not gear, without the time wasting mechanics to get to the content.

I don't ever see that happening in WoW, let alone any MMO, since they are traditionally designed to reward people with too much free time and keep people subscribed with carrot on a stick systems.

Maybe if FromSoft makes one.

Until then I just don't see it happening. There is too much money in subs and carrot on a stick systems and giant corporations are the only ones who can afford to make MMO's.

And you could argue Ashes of Creation isn't being made by a giant corporation, but we barely know anything about how that game will really work yet and being a person that has been watching the monthly updates for like 18 months now, there hasn't been anything shown about the systems to suggest it won't also have massive time grinds to do content.

[epigramx]

No. The purpose was defeating the boss. Now it's not about guild ranks and team effort, now you're in the stupid region of competitive parsing.
You can only compare yourself to the same exact spec. The other guy is maybe doing a boss mechanic and you are blowing your cooldowns at the wrong time just because you can get more dps in the add phase. Are you better now? Maybe the guild even helps you with stupid strategies so you can get more dps. Do you feel that's a good competition to have?

You're even thinking that healers are in constant competition over numbers? It's all about raid cooldowns in HPS and you don't choose where to use them, your raidleader does. You get assigned a lower dmg phase than the other guy? Or you can press your cooldown twice and he only once? You won beforehand. What a thrilling competition.

I find your post kinda funny because it perfectly supports my argument but you don't understand it.
I never told you once in this thread that blindly looking at Details! is a good comparison.
Yes: I totally agree: the competition is not just meters: it's overall good performance.

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they are traditionally designed to reward people with too much free time and keep people subscribed with carrot on a stick

I see that point but my thesis is: the devs might be wrong (yes: since VANILLA!). They have already admitted to be wrong about it in several ways so why would going the extra step of equalizing the gear (at least early if not totally (e.g. after 5man normal gearing)) be wrong?

They have already admitted that PvP gear grinding sucks (at least partly) and they have admitted RNG of legendaries sucked since Vanilla (and re-trying it at Legion) and most importantly: they never tried what I say ONCE (in a whole PvE tier) which is a hint in itself.

[Mojo03]

I find your post kinda funny because it perfectly supports my argument but you don't understand it.
I never told you once in this thread that blindly looking at Details! is a good comparison.
Yes: I totally agree: the competition is not just meters: it's overall good performance.

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I see that point but my thesis is: the devs might be wrong (yes: since VANILLA!). They have already admitted to be wrong about it in several ways so why would going the extra step of equalizing the gear (at least early if not totally (e.g. after 5man normal gearing)) be wrong?

They have already admitted that PvP gear grinding sucks (at least partly) and they have admitted RNG of legendaries sucked since Vanilla (and re-trying it at Legion) and most importantly: they never tried what I say ONCE (in a whole PvE tier) which is a hint in itself.

You keep thinking they're trying to make the game to be the best quality it can be.

They're not.

They're making it to maximize profit.

Keeping people spending time in the game increases the likelihood they'll spend money in the shop and also that they'll keep subbing.

[epigramx]

You keep thinking they're trying to make the game to be the best quality it can be.

They're not.

They're making it to maximize profit.

Keeping people spending time in the game increases the likelihood they'll spend money in the shop and also that they'll keep subbing.

I almost agree because it needs 2 big clarifications. 1) we don't need players too to buy into the fallacy so it's good to discuss it, and most importantly: 2) the devs might be actually wrong EVEN IF THEY WANT TO PROFIT from it because: there's a very good chance they lose more subscribers in the long term who are conscious about it and want to save their time compared to those subscribers they keep in the shorter or more medium term by addicting them to mundane grinding.

[Myradin]

Also it's impossible to buy that PvE is not for competition, when the most casual guild in the world celebrate when they raise in ranks against other humans (even if they claim they don't care before it happens) and when there is a world-first race that almost all PvE players follow and when people compete with each other inside their own team.

You repeat this a lot, but I've never once seen all but the very last bit to be true (mostly in terms of DPS,tanks and healers don't tend to 'compete' with one another in a team').

I've been in a lot of guilds too. I've never once seen anyone talk about rankings outside of the top. I don't even know where I would check them. Yet I did Heroic with the occasional mythic since Wrath (Ignoring the name changes over the years). My guilds were not the most hardcore, nor were they ultra casual. We cared so little about rankings that I never once heard it mentioned, and as I said, I don't even know where I'd check it.

Similarly I've seen very few PVE players care about the world first races. I've only seen it on the forums.

Now yes, I have seen competition between DPS and thats true wherever you go. But as someone who did compete this way and did care about it, gear enhanced the experience as it allowed me to work towards topping the meters.

Meanwhile, in FFXIV, which has less gear progression and meters are technically bannable, I don't even play DPS most the time and just tank. I don't even bother with serious raids/trials.

The treadmill enhances the experience for pve. Its about overcoming the wall, and the game is structured well to help you climb that wall. Meanwhile PVP if you are behind, you're stuck getting beat into the ground until you grind enough.

[epigramx]

I have seen competition between DPS and thats true wherever you go.

That's the point. No point nitpicking specific cases where you didn't see competition; e.g. I know not everyone looks at the top 5 of the world-first race; but everyone in multiplayer games is affected by comparisons to other players (one way or another).

Mundane grinding enhances nothing; it only wastes our time before we can play what we actually like: PvE; if that was not true: we would play pet battles more than PvE just because it would have mundane grinding but we don't.

[Myradin]

That's the point. No point nitpicking specific cases where you didn't see competition; e.g. I know not everyone looks at the top 5 of the world-first race; but everyone in multiplayer games is affected by comparisons to other players (one way or another).

Mundane grinding enhances nothing; it only wastes our time before we can play what we actually like: PvE; if that was not true: we would play pet battles more than PvE just because it would have mundane grinding but we don't.

I'd say you're over generalizing to the extreme. Part of what's being compared is the side effect of the grinding. I'm doing more DPS than the other guy because I put more time into the game. The difference between this and PVP is me being lower geared than my companions doesn't instantly send me to the graveyard the moment I start combat, I just end up lower on meters.

It also doesn't properly capture tanks and healers for whom meters have always been bad units of measure for.

[Mojo03]

I almost agree because it needs 2 big clarifications. 1) we don't need players too to buy into the fallacy so it's good to discuss it, and most importantly: 2) the devs might be actually wrong EVEN IF THEY WANT TO PROFIT from it because: there's a very good chance they lose more subscribers in the long term who are conscious about it and want to save their time compared to those subscribers they keep in the shorter or more medium term by addicting them to mundane grinding.

If I had my way they'd make the game to be the best quality it could be and make decisions that lead towards that.

They don't and my guess as to why they don't is they've got strong evidence the way they're doing it is more profitable.

I get what you're saying in that if they focus on quality people will come organically.

That's what the common sense approach would lead you to believe.

And maybe it's true I don't know, but my guess is that the way they do it now is safer, easier, and more profitable for them.

[epigramx]

I'm doing more DPS than the other guy because I put more time into the game.

But the point is to put the 'right' time into the game so we don't waste our time.
Training on being good at PvE is one thing, and mundane grinding is another.

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If I had my way they'd make the game to be the best quality it could be and make decisions that lead towards that.

They don't and my guess as to why they don't is they've got strong evidence the way they're doing it is more profitable.

I get what you're saying in that if they focus on quality people will come organically.

That's what the common sense approach would lead you to believe.

And maybe it's true I don't know, but my guess is that the way they do it now is safer, easier, and more profitable for them.

They THINK it is profitable and a good design. But don't overestimate them: if they did big mistakes in the past: why wouldn't they make a big mistake in thinking PvE must have mundane time-wasting grinding?
To me they're completely demystified in their ability to think on grinding e.g. they indirectly admitted Vanilla's RNG legendaries were wrong and they did exactly the same mistake in Legion!

[Awesth]

In PvE, i can pick my content and difficulty, and progress to harder difficulties.
The requirements to get started playing with friends are low, and we can always pick some easier content if someone is behind.

In PvP, to me it feels like the game only actually starts after you've farmed a bunch of pvp gear.
Even in battlegrounds, you will run into fully geared people that will just obliterate you.
Skill is of course a big part of it, and the fully geared people are most likely better than me aswell. But even against other pvp noobs, it feels like i'm at a huge disadvantage in every aspect of the "game" untill i have farmed some gear.
This makes it feel like a huge time investment upfront, to even get started playing.

I don't mind grinding for gear in PvP either. But it feels bad when you get the sense that you should just mindlessly run around bg's, mentally afk, untill you have the gear to actually play.

[epigramx]

In PvE, i can pick my content and difficulty, and progress to harder difficulties.

mundane time-wasting grinding is not required to do that. just pick an easier difficulty when you start.
the true goal of people is to have fun and to be successful at PvE (not to grind for gear).

[Rucati]

Because once you're full geared in PvE there's literally no reason to queue for 99% of the playerbase.

The only "competitive" part of PvE is m+ which an insanely small fraction of players give a shit about, most people just get the mount each season and stop caring. And I guess maybe race to world first? But an absolutely massive part of race to world first is managing gear, if everyone had full gear the race would be over in like one day.

So if you took the gear grind out of PvE the vast majority of players would quit within two weeks. Like week one they check out the heroic raid which with full gear you could easily clear in two nights, then they finish the m+ mount the next week since doing all the keys on +15 with full gear would be braindead easy and then they'd essentially be done. Even people who do mythic would be finished within a month.

In short, the gear grind prevents people from doing PvP but it encourages people to do PvE, so removing it from PvP and keeping it PvE makes the most logical sense.

[epigramx]

once you're full geared in PvE there's literally no reason to queue

You sound addicted to a game you hate. If you don't like the gameplay of PvE: why do you even play? In reality you're mostly confused rather than addiction-prone; I don't see you playing pet-battles more than PvE only if they had grinding; you play PvE because you like the gameplay.

[Rucati]

You sound addicted to a game you hate. If you don't like the gameplay of PvE: why do you even play? In reality you're mostly confused rather than addiction-prone; I don't see you playing pet-battles more than PvE only if they had grinding; you play PvE because you like the gameplay.

I hardly ever PvE actually, I spend the vast majority of my time in arena, because it's actually difficult and it feels good to improve compared to PvE where I play for two weeks get my m+ mount and then move on with my life. I can't help but feel like maybe you're projecting a little bit.

[epigramx]

you're projecting

Yeah I'm projecting that it sucks to grind for gear for PvE, and you obviously agree since you said the exact same.
I'm not convinced most people truly like it either since they keep implying they hate the grind but do it anyway.

[Thunderball]

I don't, because I've never seen it tried and I only hear about it. Even if it drops some players in the short term who only care about loot: it may gain long-term players that hate grinding for no reason other than sub prolongation.

Tell me what kind of longterm playerbase do games like Diablo or PoE have? Yea, they dont. New season comes out, everyone plays for 2 weeks (at best) and quits until the next season is out.

[epigramx]

Tell me what kind of longterm playerbase do games like Diablo or PoE have? Yea, they dont. New season comes out, everyone plays for 2 weeks (at best) and quits until the next season is out.

This game has much fewer subscribers now in a world of much more internet users, so the burden of proof is on those saying it doesn't have a flawed design.

Also you might be comparing apples with oranges because even if grinding does addict people for your profits: WoW has grinds unrelated to PvE gameplay.

[Thunderball]

This game has much fewer subscribers now in a world of much more internet users, so the burden of proof is on those saying it doesn't have a flawed design.

Also you might be comparing apples with oranges because even if grinding does addict people for your profits: WoW has grinds unrelated to PvE gameplay.

Dude, MMOs have grinds. WoW in particular makes their money on the fact that you need to buy a subscription to keep grinding. If you dont like grinding there are other games and other MMOs that are getting close to Diablo/PoE model (like FF for example).

[epigramx]

MMOs have grinds

That's the status quo. It doesn't prove why it's a better design.
Come with arguments proving it's a better design for PvE.

[Awesth]

mundane time-wasting grinding is not required to do that. just pick an easier difficulty when you start.
the true goal of people is to have fun and to be successful at PvE (not to grind for gear).

Of course, the goal of it is to have fun.
You do have to realise that people have different opinions of what is fun.
And that more than one thing can be fun in the game.

I enjoy both pushing for a higher difficulty when geared, and also the process of building my character and getting gear.
Although i don't have the time available to push the really high keys. The time investment in getting the practise is simply too high.

The feeling of progression, and moving a new character from being able to do only low keys, to clearing +15's without issue is great.
It is something i can do with friends or solo, and i can pick content where i'm actually able to compete or contribute, while getting the gear.

On the other side, to me, PvP feels like the gear is a barrier to entry.
It's completely different worlds.
But even then, i think there should be some gear improvements to get. Some kind of progression.
Just not so much that it becomes nessecary to play at all.