Give the Horde better leaders.

[Nymrohd]

To be honest I think all-out faction wars go against the original design of the game. WoW is a direct sequel to Warcraft 3, a game where Humans, Orcs and Night Elves fought together to push back a cosmic level threat. Throughout the Vanilla~WotLK era heroes of the Alliance and Horde fought off world-ending threats like Ragnaros, C'Thun, half of Kil'jaeden, Yogg-Saron and finally the Lich King himself. WoW was never SWTOR or Warhammer where a good faction and an evil faction collide - it's actually closer to FFXIV where different people from different nations cooperate to address great evils (though the Alliance and Horde never got along that well).

WoW should have been a proper continuation of WC3. Start with Five factions (Alliance, Horde, Illidari, Kaldorei, Forsaken) and cross faction play from day one. Then we could have had limited engagements between two or three factions but the balance would always be kept (since no one could act for fear of the rest ganging up on them).

[Raisei]

I mean if you're salty about the Alliance being victims we could always switch roles, have Turalyon or Anduin go batshit insane and slaughter Tauren or something only to be taken down by a joint Horde-Tyrande-Velen offensive in a Siege of Stormwind. But strangely for all the 'Horde bias' fanboys claim none seem to actually want to switch positions and take the villain role. They want to keep being the hero while also being aggressors but as the saying goes you can't have your cake and eat it as well.

The difference is that many in the Horde playerbase actually DO want to be the bloodthirsty genocidal villain, as this thread quite obviously shows. I would hazard the guess that very few people play Alliance with that mindset.

I mean seriously, ask yourself. If your faction was reduced to pathetic villains that get their asses spanked continuously by righteous heros of the light that can never ever do wrong, would you even play this game? That's essentially what you're asking the Horde and its players to be by insisting that the Alliance be righteous and aggressive at the same time. There's a reason why the fodder role is given to NPC factions, because no sane person would pay to play that role.

True. People like Gazrug want to be the villain AND win. Which will never happen. And because they cannot accept that they blame some NPCs for not being war-like enough and thus sabotaging the Horde's chances of winning. It is quite a ludicrous position to be honest.

While the Alliance also cannot wipe out the Horde for the same reason there is no real reason why they couldn't be agrressive and righteous. The Horde has commited more then enough war crimes and genocides that fighting it aggressively isn't something we can call evil, barring that they start to burn orphanages or whatever.

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas had the support of the majority. All Saurfang could gather was a handful of Orcs and the racial leaders. That is the reason why it is mostly Undead, Blood elves and Goblins in chains after the event. The races who make the biggest part of the Horde military.

Sure, but the Horde's stupidity does not change the fact that the minority was right and without them rebelling there would be no Horde anymore, just a very happy Jailer.

[Caiphon]

Give it an expansion or two. There are still several war-horny individuals on the council. All it needs is some event that kills off a few of the peaceful members and boom, next faction war. Blizzard has always listened to the players that vocally called for Alliance blood and they will again. The question isn't "if", but "which city will burn next".

I really don't know who's calling for Alliance blood when most Horde players I see ingame and on these forums are sick and tired of being villain batted twice in a row. On the contrary I've seen a good number of folks who want the Alliance to go murderous instead so that they could raid Stormwind.

Long as Anduin is the boss the Alliance won't do a thing. Turalyon might be an option now, but I really hope not. Even if we turn the table and have the Alliance be the one to start the war for once the result will be exactly the same: Nothing. Just 3 years of uninspired killing of the other faction with the result being "Let's be friends again."

I mean Bald Man brainwashed both Sylvanas and Anduin, it's not too far-fetched to have some other cosmic entity MC Anduin again. Though I do agree that faction war expansions are both stupid and pointless in a game where faction cooperation has always been the default mode of addressing calamities.

The problem is that we have seen in MoP how the Horde can indeed rebell if their Warchief goes nuts, so despite the Blood Oath they know of this option because they took it before. Then we have Sylvanas who torches a tree full of civilians, something even worse then what Garrosh did and the only Horde members who speak up are Saurfang and Baine. Implicitly meaning that the rest were okay with the mass murder.
If they are okay with that then they deserve to be wiped out. If they didn't want to be associated with Sylvanas actions then they should have gotten off their asses the moment she shouted "Burn it."
You cannot follow such orders and then claim that you had no choice when the past has shown you literally refusing orders, when this happened before.

Of course, as I said, the game cannot work with that, so the Horde is absolved of all wrongdoing and it is all Sylvanas fault. Just as it will be when Talanji or Rokhan or the Mag'har leader loose their marbles.

I don't think revoking the Blood Oath was considered an option within the Horde but rather an exception. And without a figurehead like Vol'jin rallying up against the Warchief would be quite difficult, which is why the rebels didn't really have much of a presence before Saurfang stepped in to fill the role. How the rest of the Horde felt about their Warchief's warmongering is really impossible to tell as Blizzard didn't bother describing such things, but like you said for the game to work as a game the blame had to be on Sylvanas if the Horde isn't to be reduced to a faction of third-rate fodder villains. And in my personal opinion I don't think we'll have a third 'Warchief go mad' arc as the previous two have annoyed both sides of the playerbase enough as it is.

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The difference is that many in the Horde playerbase actually DO want to be the bloodthirsty genocidal villain, as this thread quite obviously shows. I would hazard the guess that very few people play Alliance with that mindset.

There is like one person in this thread that wants to play the villain. If Horde players were generally fine with being villains the term 'villain-batting' wouldn't have been brought up as a major talking point in these debates.

While the Alliance also cannot wipe out the Horde for the same reason there is no real reason why they couldn't be agrressive and righteous. The Horde has commited more then enough war crimes and genocides that fighting it aggressively isn't something we can call evil, barring that they start to burn orphanages or whatever.

Because if one side is simultaneously aggressive and righteous the other side has absolutely nothing going for them. What's left for a Horde player to find any amount of pleasure in when the Alliance gets to beat up the Horde and be the good guys at the same time? I'm certainly not paying to be beaten up and then have that beating justified, I'd much, much rather be the good guy that got his tree burned down.

[Feanoro]

I mean if you're salty about the Alliance being victims we could always switch roles, have Turalyon or Anduin go batshit insane and slaughter Tauren or something only to be taken down by a joint Horde-Tyrande-Velen offensive in a Siege of Stormwind. But strangely for all the 'Horde bias' fanboys claim none seem to actually want to switch positions and take the villain role. They want to keep being the hero while also being aggressors but as the saying goes you can't have your cake and eat it as well.

Thank you for telling me even more loudly you're new here. I and others have made it quite clear, we're perfectly fine with Light Tyrant Anduin, blowing up Horde cities, watching the devs mock the Horde, and getting away with a pinky swear it'll never happen again.

I mean seriously, ask yourself. If your faction was reduced to pathetic villains that get their asses spanked continuously by righteous heros of the light that can never ever do wrong, would you even play this game?

You'll have to point out these "spankings" because every Alliance victory is on paper or a throwaway line in game at best, while Horde victories get treatment up to and including expensive CGI. Oddly enough, in reality, the Horde is popular enough that Blizzard has finally caved and implemented cross faction play just so that Alliance players have access to the organized content they pay for. Man, those Horde players must feel so downcast and defeated by getting "please don't murder us" scoldings.

There's a reason why the fodder role is given to NPC factions, because no sane person would pay to play that role.

I'll wait for you to figure out why cross faction was needed for Alliance players.


If you had done any reading on this forum before you trotted out the "woe is the Horde players, Alliance want to be righteous and not punching bags" meme (man, that's NEVER been used before!), you'd know I support two avenues going forward:

1) The idiotic faction stalemate NEVER EVER AGAIN is a major plot point, let alone the drive for an entire expansion.

2) The Alliance gets to show the Horde what our "victories" in MoP and BfA were like. Ten second example:
- Echo Isles nuked (fill in whatever city you like, I'm not picky)
- Orcs reduced to near extinction
- Light Tyrant Anduin dead
- Stormwind untouched
- Horde's victory is a Twitter comment by a dev, while Alliance victories throughout the campaign were broadcast in lovingly rendered CGI in a manner impossible to ignore/be unaware of

[Raisei]

I really don't know who's calling for Alliance blood when most Horde players I see ingame and on these forums are sick and tired of being villain batted twice in a row. On the contrary I've seen a good number of folks who want the Alliance to go murderous instead so that they could raid Stormwind

Not my observation, especially when things were still fresh during BFA there was quite a vocal group loving that they finally got to drink Nelf blood again. Them wanting to raid SW isn't really seperate from that. They want to do that, but they also don't want to be punished for it, so the best way is to make the Alliance go crazy. But that isn't really how the Alliance works.
There is a reason why the Horde is villain batted and that is because many of their main constituting races have actively been villainous in the past or still are.

- The Orcs had already several genocides under their belt before even setting foot on Azeroth and trying it here again, with mixed success
- The Forsaken are literally psychopathic mass murderers and they don't even hide that fact. When they are not murdering people to stich their bodies into abominations they tinker with new bioweapons to spray on unsuspecting civilians.
- The Blood Elves have enslaved Naaru in the past and literally eaten them and a decent portion has followed Kael in joining the Legion.
- The Trolls have been cannibals just a few years ago
- The Goblins are slavers and destroy every bit of nature they can find in an endless greed for money
- The Zandalari have been allied with the Mogu and are responsible for 2 events that nearly destroyed the planet

Contrary to that are only the Tauren, Vulpera and Nightborne who are somewhat decent people. So yeah... the villain batting isn't coming from nowhere.

While the Alliance hasn't got a purely white vest, there is a big dicrepancy between the factions in this.

I mean Bald Man brainwashed both Sylvanas

Nah. He manipulated her and played to her perceptions, but he did not brainwash her. Not like Anduin. It's a point in the Sylvanas book. He has tried relying on Domination with both Ner'zhul and Arthas and it didn't work out, so he went ahead and used more subtle means to get her on his side. Among those were some self-fulling prophecies (f.e. he told her the exact words that Vol'jin uses when he appointed her Warchief, but of course he just fed those lines to Mueh'zala and he warned her of the Legion Invasion which he would have knowledge of thanks to his Dreadlord spies)

and Anduin, it's not too far-fetched to have some other cosmic entity MC Anduin again. Though I do agree that faction war expansions are both stupid and pointless in a game where faction cooperation has always been the default mode of addressing calamities.

It is possible for sure. We know that the Lightbound might be coming led by Xe'ra, they would surely love to have Anduin on their side.

There is like one person in this thread that wants to play the villain. If Horde players were generally fine with being villains the term 'villain-batting' wouldn't have been brought up as a major talking point in these debates.

To be honest I think a lot of players would go that route if there were no consequences for it. Remember that when BFA started there was no "Loyalist"-path. It was a later addition because so many people complained that they were forced to side with Saurfang over their Psycho Banshee that had just torched a tree full of people. Blizzard did not anticipate people actually WANTING to side with her and then hastily added a few lines of text to make it possible.

To my knowledge this is the only time ever that quests were rewritten because of backlash (for example, I was unbelievably pissed that the Alliance was forced to help with the clean-up of the Undercity as were many others, yet no option has been added to nope out of it, or even sabotage it, apart from just not doing the quest) so you have to imagine that the backlash was big and numerous enough to make Blizzard invest Dev time.

Because if one side is simultaneously aggressive and righteous the other side has absolutely nothing going for them. What's left for a Horde player to find any amount of pleasure in when the Alliance gets to beat up the Horde and be the good guys at the same time? I'm certainly not paying to be beaten up and then have that beating justified, I'd much, much rather be the good guy that got his tree burned down.

I get that that is your perception, but I am not sure you are the majority in your faction. Some people want to be the bad guy and do bad guy stuff. They only complain when that means that they cannot be the winners too.

[Caiphon]

Thank you for telling me even more loudly you're new here. I and others have made it quite clear, we're perfectly fine with Light Tyrant Anduin, blowing up Horde cities, watching the devs mock the Horde, and getting away with a pinky swear it'll never happen again.

Dunno which 'others' you're talking about here but I've discussed this with a Void Elf enthusiast that's absolutely adamantly against Anduin or Turalyon becoming villains because the Alliance is a 'good' faction. If you're for Anduin becoming the prime villain of an expansion and being toasted to a crisp like Garrosh was then you and I have an agreement.

You'll have to point out these "spankings" because every Alliance victory is on paper or a throwaway line in game at best, while Horde victories get treatment up to and including expensive CGI. Oddly enough, in reality, the Horde is popular enough that Blizzard has finally caved and implemented cross faction play just so that Alliance players have access to the organized content they pay for. Man, those Horde players must feel so downcast and defeated by getting "please don't murder us" scoldings.

Notice the operative word there was 'if'. The Fourth War wasn't painted as a total defeat for the Horde (although it pretty much was considering the Warfronts and march on Orgrimmar) because being villain batted and then humiliated doesn't really fly well with most people, hence the 'well you guys didn't lose completely' ending that Blizzard threw out. You should also remember that there are two literal raid tiers, complete with bosses and cinematics, that detail Alliance victories over the Horde (SoO and Dazar'alor). I've yet to see a raid where the Horde stomps the Alliance.

I'll wait for you to figure out why cross faction was needed for Alliance players.

Faction population balance broke all the way back in TBC thanks to the Blood Elves joining the Horde. Blaming this on BfA plot is really way out there.

If you had done any reading on this forum before you trotted out the "woe is the Horde players, Alliance want to be righteous and not punching bags" meme (man, that's NEVER been used before!), you'd know I support two avenues going forward:

1) The idiotic faction stalemate NEVER EVER AGAIN is a major plot point, let alone the drive for an entire expansion.

2) The Alliance gets to show the Horde what our "victories" in MoP and BfA were like. Ten second example:
- Echo Isles nuked (fill in whatever city you like, I'm not picky)
- Orcs reduced to near extinction
- Light Tyrant Anduin dead
- Stormwind untouched
- Horde's victory is a Twitter comment by a dev, while Alliance victories throughout the campaign were broadcast in lovingly rendered CGI in a manner impossible to ignore/be unaware of

First of all your sense of entitlement is astonishing, I mean how dare people post on these forums without thoroughly studying Feanoro's post history? Second, if the Horde gets a raid tier dedicated to stomping the Alliance (Siege of Stormwind or Battle of Boralus, take your pick), Kills Katherine Proudmoore or someone to that effect and wins all Warfronts or similar forms of conflict while the Alliance loses two High Kings who turn genocidal we have a deal.

Not my observation, especially when things were still fresh during BFA there was quite a vocal group loving that they finally got to drink Nelf blood again. Them wanting to raid SW isn't really seperate from that. They want to do that, but they also don't want to be punished for it, so the best way is to make the Alliance go crazy. But that isn't really how the Alliance works.

And crazy wasn't how the Horde operated either prior to MoP. Thrall's Horde was anything but crazy and even Garrosh wasn't completey insane during Cataclysm. The crazy was imposed on the faction by writers who wanted more faction conflict but couldn't be bothered to think up convincing reasons for said conflict and that's where things started to go astray. And it's weird that Horde players would want Night Elf blood 'again' when they never had much prior to BfA - Theramore was a human settlement.

There is a reason why the Horde is villain batted and that is because many of their main constituting races have actively been villainous in the past or still are.

- The Orcs had already several genocides under their belt before even setting foot on Azeroth and trying it here again, with mixed success
- The Forsaken are literally psychopathic mass murderers and they don't even hide that fact. When they are not murdering people to stich their bodies into abominations they tinker with new bioweapons to spray on unsuspecting civilians.
- The Blood Elves have enslaved Naaru in the past and literally eaten them and a decent portion has followed Kael in joining the Legion.
- The Trolls have been cannibals just a few years ago
- The Goblins are slavers and destroy every bit of nature they can find in an endless greed for money
- The Zandalari have been allied with the Mogu and are responsible for 2 events that nearly destroyed the planet

Contrary to that are only the Tauren, Vulpera and Nightborne who are somewhat decent people. So yeah... the villain batting isn't coming from nowhere.

While the Alliance hasn't got a purely white vest, there is a big dicrepancy between the factions in this.

The Orcs were thralls to the Legion when they smashed the Draenei up, so the usual 'cosmic power intervenes' story. And Kael went rogue and joined up with Illidan because the Alliance (those under Lord Garithos) persecuted them. There's usually a fair bit of context in the backstories of each race and it can't just be simplified to 'Horde races are evil'. One could say the Forsaken are evil by nature because their rebirth into undeath makes them hateful of anything and everything (recently confirmed again in the Lordaeron quests) but even they are trying to free themselves from this drive.

Remember that Horde heroes rose up to fight all manners of evil that threatened Azeroth just as their Alliance counterparts did. I don't know if you've played through Horde quests but they're mostly very similar in atmosphere to the Alliance ones - you help people in need, protect those who couldn't protect themselves, save people's families and all that.

Nah. He manipulated her and played to her perceptions, but he did not brainwash her. Not like Anduin. It's a point in the Sylvanas book. He has tried relying on Domination with both Ner'zhul and Arthas and it didn't work out, so he went ahead and used more subtle means to get her on his side. Among those were some self-fulling prophecies (f.e. he told her the exact words that Vol'jin uses when he appointed her Warchief, but of course he just fed those lines to Mueh'zala and he warned her of the Legion Invasion which he would have knowledge of thanks to his Dreadlord spies)

With the whole good soul bad soul shenenigans I think it's pretty much brainwashing at that point. Terrible storytelling and I wish as much as the next guy that she was just damned to rot in the maw but it is what it is.

To be honest I think a lot of players would go that route if there were no consequences for it. Remember that when BFA started there was no "Loyalist"-path. It was a later addition because so many people complained that they were forced to side with Saurfang over their Psycho Banshee that had just torched a tree full of people. Blizzard did not anticipate people actually WANTING to side with her and then hastily added a few lines of text to make it possible.

There are games that actually lets you enjoy the role of a villain but WoW isn't one of them. Think of playing GTA or taking the Nox route in SWTOR - you get to play a complete maniac that disregards all rules, destroys life without a second thought and crushes any who try to bring 'consequences' into the picture. There is a certain satisfaction to this type of gameplay but as I said earlier, that's not the tone of the Horde questing experience at all. Trying to roleplay an evil character makes you bipolar at best, saving kids and tending to the elderly on one day then murdering said kids in cold blood on the next, not to mention you can't just totally annihilate the opposing faction because that faction is playable as well. Being villain batted in WoW inevitably sucks because it was never designed to be a good faction vs evil faction game to begin with.

I recall there was an outrage during early BfA because the plot was clearly steering towards another Horde civil war culminating in a second Siege of Orgrimmar. The addition of the Loyalist 'choice' didn't really impress many, at least in my guild and server.

I get that that is your perception, but I am not sure you are the majority in your faction. Some people want to be the bad guy and do bad guy stuff. They only complain when that means that they cannot be the winners too.

At the end of the day we don't have the statistics to prove our stances regarding the general Horde population, but I've seen precious few players that appreciated the villain bat during MoP or BfA. Villain experiences are only fun under certain contexts and WoW doesn't really provide for it imo. And I can say with some confidence that while playing the good guy that forgives and forgets doesn't satisfy everbody, it's much more desirable than playing a bad guy that fails bad guy things and gets punished for it. If I'm playing a bad guy I want to be nigh omnipotent for the power trip, otherwise I'd much rather be a good guy.

[Myradin]

With the whole good soul bad soul shenenigans I think it's pretty much brainwashing at that point. Terrible storytelling and I wish as much as the next guy that she was just damned to rot in the maw but it is what it is.

Its not brainwashing though. The 'good' soul was Sylvanas who wasn't raised as undead and forced to do a lot of terrible things for survival. The 'good' soul was effectively frozen in time and got to see the monster the 'bad' soul turned into due to their experiences.

Now, I'll agree its horrible writing, but its different in that Sylvanas is still guilty for doing what she did. "Bad Sylv" wasn't helpless or mindess.

[VladlTutushkin]

Dunno which 'others' you're talking about here but I've discussed this with a Void Elf enthusiast that's absolutely adamantly against Anduin or Turalyon becoming villains because the Alliance is a 'good' faction. If you're for Anduin becoming the prime villain of an expansion and being toasted to a crisp like Garrosh was then you and I have an agreement.



Notice the operative word there was 'if'. The Fourth War wasn't painted as a total defeat for the Horde (although it pretty much was considering the Warfronts and march on Orgrimmar) because being villain batted and then humiliated doesn't really fly well with most people, hence the 'well you guys didn't lose completely' ending that Blizzard threw out. You should also remember that there are two literal raid tiers, complete with bosses and cinematics, that detail Alliance victories over the Horde (SoO and Dazar'alor). I've yet to see a raid where the Horde stomps the Alliance.



Faction population balance broke all the way back in TBC thanks to the Blood Elves joining the Horde. Blaming this on BfA plot is really way out there.



First of all your sense of entitlement is astonishing, I mean how dare people post on these forums without thoroughly studying Feanoro's post history? Second, if the Horde gets a raid tier dedicated to stomping the Alliance (Siege of Stormwind or Battle of Boralus, take your pick), Kills Katherine Proudmoore or someone to that effect and wins all Warfronts or similar forms of conflict while the Alliance loses two High Kings who turn genocidal we have a deal.



And crazy wasn't how the Horde operated either prior to MoP. Thrall's Horde was anything but crazy and even Garrosh wasn't completey insane during Cataclysm. The crazy was imposed on the faction by writers who wanted more faction conflict but couldn't be bothered to think up convincing reasons for said conflict and that's where things started to go astray. And it's weird that Horde players would want Night Elf blood 'again' when they never had much prior to BfA - Theramore was a human settlement.



The Orcs were thralls to the Legion when they smashed the Draenei up, so the usual 'cosmic power intervenes' story. And Kael went rogue and joined up with Illidan because the Alliance (those under Lord Garithos) persecuted them. There's usually a fair bit of context in the backstories of each race and it can't just be simplified to 'Horde races are evil'. One could say the Forsaken are evil by nature because their rebirth into undeath makes them hateful of anything and everything (recently confirmed again in the Lordaeron quests) but even they are trying to free themselves from this drive.

Remember that Horde heroes rose up to fight all manners of evil that threatened Azeroth just as their Alliance counterparts did. I don't know if you've played through Horde quests but they're mostly very similar in atmosphere to the Alliance ones - you help people in need, protect those who couldn't protect themselves, save people's families and all that.



With the whole good soul bad soul shenenigans I think it's pretty much brainwashing at that point. Terrible storytelling and I wish as much as the next guy that she was just damned to rot in the maw but it is what it is.



There are games that actually lets you enjoy the role of a villain but WoW isn't one of them. Think of playing GTA or taking the Nox route in SWTOR - you get to play a complete maniac that disregards all rules, destroys life without a second thought and crushes any who try to bring 'consequences' into the picture. There is a certain satisfaction to this type of gameplay but as I said earlier, that's not the tone of the Horde questing experience at all. Trying to roleplay an evil character makes you bipolar at best, saving kids and tending to the elderly on one day then murdering said kids in cold blood on the next, not to mention you can't just totally annihilate the opposing faction because that faction is playable as well. Being villain batted in WoW inevitably sucks because it was never designed to be a good faction vs evil faction game to begin with.

I recall there was an outrage during early BfA because the plot was clearly steering towards another Horde civil war culminating in a second Siege of Orgrimmar. The addition of the Loyalist 'choice' didn't really impress many, at least in my guild and server.



At the end of the day we don't have the statistics to prove our stances regarding the general Horde population, but I've seen precious few players that appreciated the villain bat during MoP or BfA. Villain experiences are only fun under certain contexts and WoW doesn't really provide for it imo. And I can say with some confidence that while playing the good guy that forgives and forgets doesn't satisfy everbody, it's much more desirable than playing a bad guy that fails bad guy things and gets punished for it. If I'm playing a bad guy I want to be nigh omnipotent for the power trip, otherwise I'd much rather be a good guy.

If the “Siege of Stormwind” is done same way as SoO and leaves the coty entirely intact, while Horde gets fuck nothing out of it and screws back to their wasteland than sure, i would love it. Because thats what Alliance got from SoO.

Oh and you also get to sign an unfavourable peace deal after that, seceding land to the Alliance even though you “won” the raid.

Basically you lose by winning and win nothing and have to give some of the stuff you had to your enemy just because.

Meanwhile your cities are in ruins, zones are attacked and ravaged and your nations are humiliated and genocided.

Does that sound remotely entertaining to you? Playing some kind of a “loser side of history” in a fucken video game? Its like being bloody Italy in any war after Medieval - huge losses and shitty rewards and everybody makes fun of you afterwards.

[Feanoro]

First of all your sense of entitlement is astonishing, I mean how dare people post on these forums without thoroughly studying Feanoro's post history?

You don't get to play outraged here, pal, when you came here and started making assumptions and claims about where I stand with no basis whatsoever. If you want to comment or criticize me on what I've said or a position of mine, fair game. What I'm not going to let slide is you making a strawman of me when you clearly have no idea what I think.

[Grazrug]

The difference is that many in the Horde playerbase actually DO want to be the bloodthirsty genocidal villain, as this thread quite obviously shows. I would hazard the guess that very few people play Alliance with that mindset.



True. People like Gazrug want to be the villain AND win. Which will never happen. And because they cannot accept that they blame some NPCs for not being war-like enough and thus sabotaging the Horde's chances of winning. It is quite a ludicrous position to be honest.

While the Alliance also cannot wipe out the Horde for the same reason there is no real reason why they couldn't be agrressive and righteous. The Horde has commited more then enough war crimes and genocides that fighting it aggressively isn't something we can call evil, barring that they start to burn orphanages or whatever.

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Sure, but the Horde's stupidity does not change the fact that the minority was right and without them rebelling there would be no Horde anymore, just a very happy Jailer.

Teldrassil was a rallying cry for the entire alliance with the determination of its members to see the Horde put down to dust. Lordaeron and Zuldazar however are treated as a joke by our own government who made their peace treaty over the heads of those affected by it(Undead and Zandalari). The Alliance was actually allowed to get their revenge when they killed Nathanos and sent Sylvanas to the Maw. Jaina however remains unharmed and still leads her nation because the traitors Baine and Thrall hold a protecting hand over her. You see the problem here? The Horde council does not support their own people. They are not willing to get their hands dirty on the true enemy.

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You don't get to play outraged here, pal, when you came here and started making assumptions and claims about where I stand with no basis whatsoever. If you want to comment or criticize me on what I've said or a position of mine, fair game. What I'm not going to let slide is you making a strawman of me when you clearly have no idea what I think.

All you ever do is complaining that Horde players are not supporting the direction Blizzard is taking us. If alliance players get to be angry that Teldrassil happened. Then Horde players should be allowed to critizise Blizzard that the spotlight we get does more damage then good to our internal problems.

[Feanoro]

All you ever do is complaining that Horde players are not supporting the direction Blizzard is taking us. If alliance players get to be angry that Teldrassil happened. Then Horde players should be allowed to critizise Blizzard that the spotlight we get does more damage then good to our internal problems.

I have NEVER said Hordies (or anyone for that matter) can't criticize Blizzard. Far from it, I encourage more criticism and people demanding a good story. Believe it or not, I want BOTH sides to enjoy this, but since topics here are almost always Horde centered, there's not much opportunity to talk about that.

To repeat, if you want to comment or criticize me on what I've said or a position of mine, fair game.

Don't flat out lie about me.

[Darth-Piekus]

What Im about to say is my honest opinion.This situation happens in these forums from Cataclysm.

You Mr Zugzug and some other speficic users (they know who they are) keep starting posts about how the Council sucks, about War in Warcraft, about blaming everyone else but the Horde with War X,Y,Z etc etc,how Baine sucks, how Thrall sucks, how evil Tyrande,Genn,Jaina, Malfurion,Taran Zhu etc etc for daring to put the Horde to answer for their crimes, how Garrosh did nothing wrong, how Sylvannas did nothing wrong ignoring established lore and then dare to play the victim card with Internment Camps,Taurajo, Rashtakan, Dalaran etc etc. Some users even take it one step far and use careful insults to bait others into a heated arguement that often result in bans.

I am powerless to do anything unfortunately otherwise I would have finished that ages ago.

[Caiphon]

If the “Siege of Stormwind” is done same way as SoO and leaves the coty entirely intact, while Horde gets fuck nothing out of it and screws back to their wasteland than sure, i would love it. Because thats what Alliance got from SoO.

Oh and you also get to sign an unfavourable peace deal after that, seceding land to the Alliance even though you “won” the raid.

Basically you lose by winning and win nothing and have to give some of the stuff you had to your enemy just because.

Meanwhile your cities are in ruins, zones are attacked and ravaged and your nations are humiliated and genocided.

Does that sound remotely entertaining to you? Playing some kind of a “loser side of history” in a fucken video game? Its like being bloody Italy in any war after Medieval - huge losses and shitty rewards and everybody makes fun of you afterwards.

Sure I'm down with that, as long as we get to lock the High King up and kill him later. Losing a war and making it out relatively unharmed is still losing a war. I don't really see what you mean by 'cities in ruins' when none of the Alliance capitals were touched during the events of MoP.

And I'm not sure if the Alliance can be considered the 'loser side' when the Horde quite literally lost in MoP with Orgrimmar sacked (as according to Khadgar) and lost all Warfronts plus the Battle of Dazar'alor in BfA. The Alliance always emerges victorious in the end while the Horde's 'wins' are always limited to the beginning of the conflict. I do not by any means think the Alliance gets an excellent deal from Blizzard in terms of storytelling but I do envy their cut as opposed to the Horde's constant villain batting and losing. If my Alliance toon was my main I'd be like 'man this story's shit but at least I'm not an Orc/Tauren/BElf or whatever'.

You don't get to play outraged here, pal, when you came here and started making assumptions and claims about where I stand with no basis whatsoever. If you want to comment or criticize me on what I've said or a position of mine, fair game. What I'm not going to let slide is you making a strawman of me when you clearly have no idea what I think.

Goodness, who hurt you? One does not need to go through everyone's post history to notice the people jumping at anyone who would dare complain about the Horde's treatment in lore or say that the faction deserves better. I don't know why you feel so personally attacked when I've never addressed you in person (before now anyway). You said Alliance fans can have opinions, I said they often go beyond simple opinions. Which I think is fair considering you don't see an angry mob of Horde fans pop up everytime the Alliance is mentioned, not on these forums anyway. Discussions would be a lot more civil if a small number of Alliance fans didn't feel a need to start a Horde bashing competition every time the faction is brought up.

[Grazrug]

Sure I'm down with that, as long as we get to lock the High King up and kill him later. Losing a war and making it out relatively unharmed is still losing a war. I don't really see what you mean by 'cities in ruins' when none of the Alliance capitals were touched during the events of MoP.

And I'm not sure if the Alliance can be considered the 'loser side' when the Horde quite literally lost in MoP with Orgrimmar sacked (as according to Khadgar) and lost all Warfronts plus the Battle of Dazar'alor in BfA. The Alliance always emerges victorious in the end while the Horde's 'wins' are always limited to the beginning of the conflict. I do not by any means think the Alliance gets an excellent deal from Blizzard in terms of storytelling but I do envy their cut as opposed to the Horde's constant villain batting and losing. If my Alliance toon was my main I'd be like 'man this story's shit but at least I'm not an Orc/Tauren/BElf or whatever'.



Goodness, who hurt you? One does not need to go through everyone's post history to notice the people jumping at anyone who would dare complain about the Horde's treatment in lore or say that the faction deserves better. I don't know why you feel so personally attacked when I've never addressed you in person (before now anyway). You said Alliance fans can have opinions, I said they often go beyond simple opinions. Which I think is fair considering you don't see an angry mob of Horde fans pop up everytime the Alliance is mentioned, not on these forums anyway. Discussions would be a lot more civil if a small number of Alliance fans didn't feel a need to start a Horde bashing competition every time the faction is brought up.

Don't forget that Varian mocked the Horde telling them he will destroy them if they start another war, robbing Vol'jin of his moment he just had with the other Horde leaders. And alliance players got the title "Horde breaker". that counts for something.

[Darth-Piekus]

What Im about to say is my honest opinion.This situation happens in these forums from Cataclysm.

You and some other speficic users (they know who they are) keep starting posts about how the Council sucks, about War in Warcraft, about blaming everyone else but the Horde with War X,Y,Z etc etc,how Baine sucks, how Thrall sucks, how evil Tyrande,Genn,Jaina, Malfurion,Taran Zhu etc etc for daring to put the Horde to answer for their crimes, how Garrosh did nothing wrong, how Sylvannas did nothing wrong ignoring established lore and then dare to play the victim card with Internment Camps,Taurajo, Rashtakan, Dalaran etc etc. Some users even take it one step far and use careful insults to bait others into a heated arguement that often result in bans.

I am powerless to do anything unfortunately otherwise I would have finished that ages ago.

[Caiphon]

Don't forget that Varian mocked the Horde telling them he will destroy them if they start another war, robbing Vol'jin of his moment he just had with the other Horde leaders. And alliance players got the title "Horde breaker". that counts for something.

The title was quite insulting yes, Varian though as High King probably had to at least say something to the new Horde leadership in order to show his allies that he's serious about preventing the next war. I mean Jaina wasn't half convinced even after Varian's little speech. Plus I'd dare say Vol'jin's 'moment' was actually amplified when he engaged Varian with 'I speak for the Horde'. The dude actually looked badass there.

[Grazrug]

What Im about to say is my honest opinion.This situation happens in these forums from Cataclysm.

You and some other speficic users (they know who they are) keep starting posts about how the Council sucks, about War in Warcraft, about blaming everyone else but the Horde with War X,Y,Z etc etc,how Baine sucks, how Thrall sucks, how evil Tyrande,Genn,Jaina, Malfurion,Taran Zhu etc etc for daring to put the Horde to answer for their crimes, how Garrosh did nothing wrong, how Sylvannas did nothing wrong ignoring established lore and then dare to play the victim card with Internment Camps,Taurajo, Rashtakan, Dalaran etc etc. Some users even take it one step far and use careful insults to bait others into a heated arguement that often result in bans.

I am powerless to do anything unfortunately otherwise I would have finished that ages ago.

That is not bait. Pointing out that the Horde actually too took some damage is just setting the argument straight that not only the alliance suffers from bad writing done by Blizzard.

[Darth-Piekus]

Is it not bait though when you start useless posts about the same thing over and over? People are coming over to reply of their opinion but you aren't willing to listen and in the end you play the victim card like the others started it. It's really unhealthy friend. If you are bored and still like Warcraft games instead of posting 24/7 I would propose you to try Ascension Warcraft or Warhammer Online Return to Reckoning.

[VladlTutushkin]

Sure I'm down with that, as long as we get to lock the High King up and kill him later. Losing a war and making it out relatively unharmed is still losing a war. I don't really see what you mean by 'cities in ruins' when none of the Alliance capitals were touched during the events of MoP.

And I'm not sure if the Alliance can be considered the 'loser side' when the Horde quite literally lost in MoP with Orgrimmar sacked (as according to Khadgar) and lost all Warfronts plus the Battle of Dazar'alor in BfA. The Alliance always emerges victorious in the end while the Horde's 'wins' are always limited to the beginning of the conflict. I do not by any means think the Alliance gets an excellent deal from Blizzard in terms of storytelling but I do envy their cut as opposed to the Horde's constant villain batting and losing. If my Alliance toon was my main I'd be like 'man this story's shit but at least I'm not an Orc/Tauren/BElf or whatever'.



Goodness, who hurt you? One does not need to go through everyone's post history to notice the people jumping at anyone who would dare complain about the Horde's treatment in lore or say that the faction deserves better. I don't know why you feel so personally attacked when I've never addressed you in person (before now anyway). You said Alliance fans can have opinions, I said they often go beyond simple opinions. Which I think is fair considering you don't see an angry mob of Horde fans pop up everytime the Alliance is mentioned, not on these forums anyway. Discussions would be a lot more civil if a small number of Alliance fans didn't feel a need to start a Horde bashing competition every time the faction is brought up.

Alliance is so "victorious" that best they can do is leave an empty threat and actually give more of their stuff to the Horde , legally or just matter of factly.

Hell, Alliance even helped Forsaken clean up Undercity after Shadowlands which is INSANE. You do not fucken help your enemy like this! Every victim of the forsaken after that will be on Alliance's list now, since they helped them regain ground.

Thats just how it always goes - victory without rewards, but with all the losses, while enemy "loses" but comes out on top somehow when it comes to the final "score" of loss to gain ratio.

Also "crowd of angry Horde fans" pops up every time Alliance poster asks for some kind of tangible , badass win with actual reward instead of "fuck we barely pulled it off, lost like gazillion men in the process and now have to appease the Horde with tribute to make sure they totally behave this time". Its shit plot and yet any time Alliance asks to change this paradigm Horde fans rile up and start defending it... Wonder why, almost as if it benefits them somehow... hmm.

[Myradin]

I always find the internment camp thing funny.

Every other invading enemy force, heck even hostile local forces, have been ground into dust and put to the sword by pretty much every faction throughout warcraft's history.

Yet the alliance, after the orcs came from a portal, butchered the southern lands, headed north to do the same, while also tring to call the burning legion to destroy the world, decided to instead lock the orcs up and keep them fed. Now, the interment camps sucked, but you're also asking medieval nations to support effectivey an additional nation of former marauding killers.

What should have the alliance done otherwise? They had 3 options:
1) Keep the orcs in better conditions, possible at the loss of their own nations, under hope the orcs would magically reform and become their friends?
2) Kill the orcs, like every other hostile force.
3) Let them keep the south, or otherwise give them land, hoping the horde would learn their lesson (admittedly, this would be the modern alliance stance)

What was the alliance supposed to do? They created effectively a wellfare state to help keep the orcs alive.