Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Archy]

I said, and I'll say it again: not-timing a dungeon & doing a 2 hour wipe-fest are two very different things.

If you agree beforehand to stay for the weekly and it isn't going horribly...

Why are you saying it again?

You do have more information available than ilvl and rating.
In fact, I can filter the boosted kids out pretty efficiently with everything that rio provides me.
Nothing is 100% of course because it literally cant be. IDK what you need more information for anyway, "he left a weekly run" is pretty hard to measure with a number.

If you're looking into their runs on raider.io to figure out if they might be boosted, you either take it way too seriously or are not in the bracket these changes are aimed for. I'd like to meet the boosters who can time a +22 key with 4 people. Those are some hardcore people.

The "number" would be dictated by other players. There are a lot of times when leaving a key is the best thing to do. I'm not out to blanket punish everyone who leave first. You're saying that, not me. I'm for a small incentive to look out for others. It doesn't need to be a number everyone can see. A gold star next to your name, if you meet the criteria, might be an idea. Up/downvoting other people (that only you can see) and then showing those people in the groups afterwards would be anothers. As a precursor to friend/ignore list. As the ultimate solution to this problem is to have your own network of people you like to play with. Pushing this with easy UI change, that require no effort from the player isn't the worst idea in my opinion.

If you agree beforehand to stay for the weekly and it isn't going horribly...

You don't want to control people but fuck they shouldn't be able to use their free will to ditch a horrible run, right?
Alright.

[neescher]

I don't think it's that, I think there is a discrepancy in purpose. Some are in a key for rating, some are in a key for weekly, some are in a key to farm a specific loot piece.

You can list your group as "Completion" or "Beat Timer" in the lfg tool, and you can talk to players before starting the timer.

If people refuse to talk to each other, there's nothing Blizzard can do.

[shane brannigan]

I don't understand how there are no repercussions if someone leaves the M+ group (for various reasons) and messes up someone else's key.

In PvP if you leave nobody loses anything else but time and your spot can be replaced by someone else and you still get deserter, in M+ nothing.

Literally, nobody is trying in M+ anymore because they don't have to. If people would get a 30 minutes deserter for leaving an M+ group, people would try harder to finish a key even if it will be depleted or barely in time.

Is it just me, or?

you're right, but deserter is not a real solution since they'll just go take a dump or something. I personally think halving the weekly box for repeat offenders is a viable solution, assuming they work out a fair method of detection and providing a legitimate out if your group refuses to quit 20 minutes after the key died. But most I'm just tired of reading the bad faith posts in response to these threads.
"stop expecting a carry" is not a constructive response Karen, stop acting like this legit issue going back years.

[tomten]

Just cuz someone joins a weekly run there is zero obligation to actually stick with it if the group is horrid. You can find another weekly run where people are not (or less) horrid easily.

A weekly, by definition is a horrid run, Thats why its "weekly" and not just a regular run lol. You join a weekly? You are obligated to finish it, thats why its weekly and why you joined it.

[Alroxas]

A weekly, by definition is a horrid run, Thats why its "weekly" and not just a regular run lol. You join a weekly? You are obligated to finish it, thats why its weekly and why you joined it.

Maybe, but even a weekly run needs to have some chance of success. As in if the group can't down the first trash to the first boss with Heroism on Fortified week or the first boss with Heroism on Tyrannical week, then why would you continue to beat your head in trying to continue?

Additionally, the tolerance of enduring that kind of a run is highly subjective. Bob might only stay around for a hour (max) but Jimmy might be willing to spend up to 4 hours... in a high M+ dungeon for the weekly.

Also the group leader of such a run should take extra steps and verify the willingness of the group members to go that far and replace players if they aren't 100% on-board with it.

[Dismayxz]

I love how the only two very verbal types of people you will find in these types of posts are 1.) The guy complaining about leavers, who is usually the perpetrator of the mistakes that brick keys and then 2.) the mediocre players watching Gingi, chugging ELX, thinking they are carrying on any metric other than the Leaderboards for wasted space on planet earth.
(Love Gingi btw., but WoW Pro stans are actual fucking single cellers, they watch one stream and you won't hear the end of wanting to try some experimental tech nobody cares for and completely useless when people can clearly time keys for score just fine without adding more layers of execution difficulty to standard runs.)

The only real problem with the key debacle is that it would be as detrimental as it would be positive to prevent leaving. The most common problem with PUG Keys (which are the only type of M+ run that has this problem, naturally) isn't the leavers, it's that you cannot possibly enforce or check what your goals for YOUR own key are.

At the end of the day, the only person that gets punished in any situation is the keyholder and their intentions. They are bringing the key, without them lending it and opening the group in the first place, the other 4 apes wouldn't even have a tree to climb on.

You can put things such as completion, beat timer, you can add notes, try and communicate as much as you want, at the end of the day you will not be able to make sure that every single person joining your key with whatever intention you outline, will pay attention to that. The baseline is, people queue for a key they see and want, be that for loot, weekly, score. You name it. And most people will ignore most of the information you can give about the type of run you are aiming towards. At the end of the day you will be stuck with an average of 50 or more applicants, with varying scores and key completions, based on so many factors that any person you invite, no matter how their metrics look, is a risk to your key and your goal. If their RIO Page is a clean sweep of only timed keys, chances are they have left every deplete ever, even if the finish may have still yielded a score increase (when you are pushing, every score increase, whether from a timed or slightly out of time key is progress and progress is the only thing that matters to pushing your score further) just to have said page. A rio score of x does not proactively lift the possibility of mistakes, neither does having a key of a similar or the same level timed. Nor does inviting a person on a Meta class or running a meta comp eradicate the possibility of failure, it's really only a concept of sunk costs, because at least if you are not failing, you are absolutely banging that key into the ground, whereas the failure in and of itself is going to sting a whole lot more.

At the end of the day, as much as it sucks, a person that doesn't want to be there anymore, whether it makes sense from a score progression angle or not, cannot be forced to stay. On the other end, it sucks for you, the keyholder as well as the people in your key that align with your goal.

The best solution is, and will always be, to prevent key level depletion. This can create a feedback loop where pushing keys becomes a monotonous dance of retrying the same key until you finally time it back to back for premade teams, but it is quite possibly the only way to make the pugging experience feel less like a climb through a stinking sewer of leavers, inevitable mistakes (everybody makes them eventually, no matter how good of a player you are) and other problems with pushing through pugs. Telling people to go get a team or a guild, while technically a valid suggestion, isn't the best solution for a lot of players either.

If you just join keys and they keep failing, I won't be the one to say that maybe you are the problem, too many factors there to consider for every run. But it's not like you contributed the key ingredient (no pun intended) of the run. The keyholder ultimately is the only person truly getting fucked over at the end of the day, no matter how much people want to bitch and moan about having their time wasted while wasting it on a video game, at the end of the day your time isn't more valuable than mine or another's. Maybe to you, but in a standard M+ group there are 5 people. A leaver will always potentially waste more raw spent time than their single celler ego is worth.

[sponge5307]

Or you know some games used to have build in checks that only allow cheaters to play with other cheaters or people who constantly leave matches will only get to play with people who constantly leave matches as well.

Maybe blizzard can do something like that in group finder, where if you constantly leave a group, you can only see another group in group finders that also constantly leave a group. You wouldn't know it coz is all done internally on blizzard's back end. If someone say your friend or guild invite you then is fine.

It also won't matter to those pushing pass 22+ since like many people have said these people only push for io score and everyone is aware if the group won't time the key people leave and is normal so it won't hurt them one bit to be only able to see groups with other who also constantly leave.

[kamuimac]

Or you know some games used to have build in checks that only allow cheaters to play with other cheaters or people who constantly leave matches will only get to play with people who constantly leave matches as well.

Maybe blizzard can do something like that in group finder, where if you constantly leave a group, you can only see another group in group finders that also constantly leave a group. You wouldn't know it coz is all done internally on blizzard's back end. If someone say your friend or guild invite you then is fine.

It also won't matter to those pushing pass 22+ since like many people have said these people only push for io score and everyone is aware if the group won't time the key people leave and is normal so it won't hurt them one bit to be only able to see groups with other who also constantly leave.

leaving because other 4 players play like muppets is not cheating. its not wanting to carry others who are clearly way above their skill level for free.

if you have skills for +5 dont join +15 in hope for miracle

and if you really want to compare it to other games then sure lets do it - lets put bracket making people with garbage score like 1k preventing from entering anythign higher then +7 or something . and if you want to enter +15 ? 2k score minimum for you

[Azharok]

and if you really want to compare it to other games then sure lets do it - lets put bracket making people with garbage score like 1k preventing from entering anythign higher then +7 or something . and if you want to enter +15 ? 2k score minimum for you

As if 2k was any indication of skill. But i guess the whole enforced score for brackets would be nice.

[crusadernero]

As if 2k was any indication of skill. But i guess the whole enforced score for brackets would be nice.

I would certainly bet on that most wow players cant reach 2k.

[Azharok]

I would certainly bet on that most wow players cant reach 2k.

considering we hard carried a mage (did 40k overall, below tank who did 45k) in an AA16 last week. I highly doubt that.

You can get away with so much in 14s (which would land you at 2k). Anyone who wants to get to 2k, could, just keep applying to keys and keep grinding.

[JoakimB]

Besides. Blizzard made it so you need score to upgrade gear. So many people do dungeons for rank - not gear. So there's no point of staying if you dont wont increase your score. Faster to just find a better group.

And at the same time blizzard increased the difficulty by raising best ilvl reward to 20, means it requires ALOT more from people than the regular 15s. If you wont time it, wont get score, you can get for Vault, but some people just care about score so they leave after a wipe, meanwhile the other 4 want for Vault.

If this was the case for a 15, it would be completely different since its just very easy to do 15s.

[kamuimac]

As if 2k was any indication of skill. But i guess the whole enforced score for brackets would be nice.

its not meant to be indication of skill. its meant to be ensurance that you at minimum did all 13/14 untimed.

you dont see people in other game playing each other with miles away on MMR. and there is a reason for it.

similiar shouldnt be happning in wow then failure ration would be much smaller

[Azharok]

its not meant to be indication of skill. its meant to be ensurance that you at minimum did all 13/14 untimed.

you dont see people in other game playing each other with miles away on MMR. and there is a reason for it.

similiar shouldnt be happning in wow then failure ration would be much smaller

But doing all 14s even untimed doesn't require a whole lot of brainpower. You can fail upwards to 2k quite easily. There isn't much that will straight up kill you or deplete a key (unless your group is absolutely awful at the game) Until 16-17s.

Just because someone timed a 14 doesn't mean that he can actually time a 15, it just means that the 4 other people in the group and him timed the 14. I'm sure you've ran numerous keys where one of the dps (and to some extent healers and tanks) contributed virtually nothing to the key and still timed it. Those players get to 2k, and when enough of those people end up in the same key, magic, nothing gets timed, and they started blaming the leavers for being toxic.

[wixxi]

I was doing 21AV, run was going smooth, at last boss , the boss had 30% life left and we only had like 30seconds on the timer, so basically (probably) we wouldnt had make it, for info no one was dead and everyone was 100% life. In the middle of the fight at 30% 2 persons left the group.
I was flabbergasted, my mouth was open looking at the party chat and back at the party frames for a good minute.

[ztkraptor]

People making these dumb posts really need to understand.

People leave keys because they are after rating.

They don't need gear for the most part. If you aren't going to time the key, they leave its perfectly acceptable.

There should be no punishment, no one should be forced to finish a key for you. Stop with this nonsense.

[Azharok]

I was doing 21AV, run was going smooth, at last boss , the boss had 30% life left and we only had like 30seconds on the timer, so basically (probably) we wouldnt had make it, for info no one was dead and everyone was 100% life. In the middle of the fight at 30% 2 persons left the group.
I was flabbergasted, my mouth was open looking at the party chat and back at the party frames for a good minute.

Untimed 21s award no more than timed 20s, so it's not cool but that's probably the reason.

[Alroxas]

Or you know some games used to have build in checks that only allow cheaters to play with other cheaters or people who constantly leave matches will only get to play with people who constantly leave matches as well.

Maybe blizzard can do something like that in group finder, where if you constantly leave a group, you can only see another group in group finders that also constantly leave a group. You wouldn't know it coz is all done internally on blizzard's back end. If someone say your friend or guild invite you then is fine.

First problem, how does the game realize when a person leaves it's because of themselves and not because of the group. Say Bob is being a troll (damnit Bob!) but other people in the group leaves first. Doesn't that mean that the first leaver is being punished for actions of someone else?

So now you have all these people staying in a party because they don't want to be the "first" leaver but continue to play poorly so that some other poor schmuck leaves first.

Second problem, say you join Bob in party and then Bob has to leave (for whatever reason). Does Bob get flagged? Since you partied up with him, is his behavior going to affect your account? Let's say that Bob is already flagged but joins your party, does his flagged affect your ability to find other non-flagged people in group finder?

[Indigenously Abled]

Dear God the cringe in this thread. Implementing deserter is a terrible idea within the current system.

[kamuimac]

I was doing 21AV, run was going smooth, at last boss , the boss had 30% life left and we only had like 30seconds on the timer, so basically (probably) we wouldnt had make it, for info no one was dead and everyone was 100% life. In the middle of the fight at 30% 2 persons left the group.
I was flabbergasted, my mouth was open looking at the party chat and back at the party frames for a good minute.

and why were yiu surprised ? they had no reason to stay there even those 30 seconds longer the moment they realised that they wont get extra score.

it was perfectly valid reason to leave.


i personaly wouldnt leave but they had all right to do so .