Are the new Warlock race options a lore problem?

[Venziir]

Isn't the corrupting force that the mag'har orcs were fighting against the light? The fel orcs had been killed off a generation ago (within the AU timeline). If these orcs are calling themselves mag'har, then it stands to reason that they're the ones who are uncorrupted from the light zealots that are trying to overtake their world; hence, being a warlock would not at all go against the idea of "mag'har" within their own societal PoV.

No, it's the fel.
MU: "The Mag'har orcs[2][3] ("uncorrupted" in Orcish), also known as "brown orcs",[1][4][5] are the orcs that escaped the corruption of the Burning Legion and thereby retained their natural brown or gray skin color."
AU: After the events of Hellfire Citadel on the alternate Draenor, the remnants of the Iron Horde and the Frostwolf clan united into one clan simply known as the "Mag'har", meaning "uncorrupted" in Orcish.

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So they still start as mag'har, so youd still pick the maghar race to start so it dont matter.

But also existing warlocks talk about being infected with fel, we have clear examples of that in game, feltotem, demonblood orcs, accursed belves, and we have clear examples of tons of races that are warlocks that aren't physically infected with fel.

Just because it doesnt fit in your understanding does not mean it does not fit in the reality of this universe.

Oh please, don't give me that nonsense...

[Super Dickmann]

The Mag'har founding event is their rejection of fel, that's the whole reason they have their name. AU!Grom, their leader for 30+ years, has as his claim to fame that he didn't drink the green bathwater even when offered it at gun point and facing total collapse. This, combined with the fact that using fel turns an orc green in short order is why Mag'har locks share the spot of dishonor with Lightforged locks.

But Dickmann, at least one Mag'har could've decided fel is the lighter pill to take and those warlocks in WoD were brown

No, the warlocks in WoD were brown because they'd literally started seconds ago, a PC tier warlock would go green in seconds. More importantly, races aren't outliers but depict a defined meaningful cultural practice. A Mag'har warlock, and an LF warlock for that point, aren't one dickhead, they're depictions of a whole social movement in the race in question. It's why D&D logic doesn't work. Cultural variance is just a byword for cultural homogeneity - if anyone can be everything then everyone is nothing. Strong convictions and distinct cultural markers are the meat and potatoes of a setting where the races are arch marketable stereotypes. If gameplay benefits from having all classes be playable for all races, then much like orc priests the goal should be to make every race's spin on every class distinct. And no "My friend John taught me how to commune with Satan" doesn't cut it.

[Tanaria]

I don't remember WoD that well, but wasn't their some Mag'har Orc looking NPCs in Hellfire Citadel who were seemingly Warlocks?

[Super Dickmann]

I don't remember WoD that well, but wasn't their some Mag'har Orc looking NPCs in Hellfire Citadel who were seemingly Warlocks?

No, the Mag'har coloured ones are from 6.0, the ones in Hellfire Citadel largely use either the gray/black-skinned mutated fel orc model if male or the similar fel orc skin if female.

[Tanaria]

No, the Mag'har coloured ones are from 6.0, the ones in Hellfire Citadel largely use either the gray/black-skinned mutated fel orc model if male or the similar fel orc skin if female.

Oh, I thought I remembered seeing some female Mag'har Warlocks, just before Kormrok

[Super Dickmann]

Oh, I thought I remembered seeing some female Mag'har Warlocks, just before Kormrok

Checked to be sure. The ones right before Kormrok are brown Bleeding Hollow. They're the only ones and are called fel extractors.

[Triceron]

Isn't the corrupting force that the mag'har orcs were fighting against the light? The fel orcs had been killed off a generation ago (within the AU timeline). If these orcs are calling themselves mag'har, then it stands to reason that they're the ones who are uncorrupted from the light zealots that are trying to overtake their world; hence, being a warlock would not at all go against the idea of "mag'har" within their own societal PoV.

The problem is that they would in turn be regular Orcs, and be no different than a literal skin customization option from that point on.

Culturally, they're already the same as the Orcs under Thrall, who have adopted the old ways. Their only difference is literally in not being corrupted by Fel, otherwise their physicality is exactly the same.

It would be like if we were talking about Horde Blood Elves who later got pelted with Void powers and became empowered by the Void. Well, they'd be Void Elves, no different than the Alliance ones, who literally went through that same transition. There's no case where they'd continue to be Blood Elves empowered with Void magic in the lore. The only option is we simply ignore the obvious contradiction in lore; like if Blizzard simply opened up Void Elf customizations to Blood Elf and called it a day.

[Super Dickmann]

Culturally, they're already the same as the Orcs under Thrall, who have adopted the old ways. Their only difference is literally in not being corrupted by Fel, otherwise their physicality is exactly the same.

Lolwat, the Mag'har are an unbroken line from the Iron Horde. Even with the clan focus of the orcish heritage questline, the MU orcs are LARPing based on memories of their own clan identity as there's no genuine article left. They're deliberately servicing the WC2/Iron Horde/Garrosh and WC3/Vanilla/Thrall lines of the orcish identity.

[Tanaria]

Checked to be sure. The ones right before Kormrok are brown Bleeding Hollow. They're the only ones and are called fel extractors.

I'll play devil's advocate and pose the suggestion that it's possible that Mag'har Warlocks are "fel extractors" by lore.

[Izalla]

Not sure if it has been discussed yet because I haven't read the whole thread, but regarding mag'har orcs and warlocks... I hate the idea of them as much as anyone else does, but I was thinking about the whole "it defeats the whole point of the race because they will just turn into regular green orcs" thing. Which is something I have said before as well.

What I'm curious about is, why? Why are orcs specifically so vulnerable to fel magic that channeling it will turn their skin green, but the same isn't true for other races?

Even the orcs who didn't channel it turned green from exposure, and so did all their kids after that even without the exposure. The mag'har we meet in Outland have been living halfway in the Nether and are still brown despite that, so what kind if exposure does it take?

Thinking about it, I don't think being a warlock alone should be enough to turn a brown orc green. Draenor was so steeped in fel when the orcs were going bananas with their new green magic that the planet itself was corrupted and dying (which honestly should have probably affected those sick mag'har quarantined in Nagrand as well since they weren't actually that far away).

If exposure to any amount of fel was enough to turn them green, all the mag'har from AU Draneor would be green by now first from the events of WoD's final patch and then from moving to Azeroth and spending time around the warlocks of other races. I think at this point in order for an orc to turn green, they would need a lot more exposure than just channeling fel themselves in a "responsible" way. Would need an entire society to be casting it recklessly like the night elves of old attracting the Legion with their misuse of arcane.

I admit I'm forgetting if Gul'dan turned green well before the other locks took up the craft though, but he could also be explained away as one of those who definitely wasn't channeling it responsibly. If someone can remind me, did any of the orcs actually turn green before drinking Mannoroth's blood, or did they only start turning after that point (even the ones who didn't drink it)?

[Super Dickmann]

I'll play devil's advocate and pose the suggestion that it's possible that Mag'har Warlocks are "fel extractors" by lore.

As said in the main post, it's perfectly possible for a warlock to start out brown, but they won't stay that way, especially not given the general PC power level lore-wise. But that point is a lot less relevant than the overall one, which is how it undermines the core race identity. Rejection of fel is the founding event and most recurring element of the Mag'har, it's what they're named for. Ditching it as a 'by the way' offshoot has no benefits. It's not on the level of Lightforged warlocks (or Lightforged Death Knights for that matter) but it's shit.

@Izalla

Elves have a similar gig going. Blood Elves by and large didn't use fel magic (they should have and that explanation also should be cut, but that's another topic), but just siphoning from animals and the ambience in Silvermoon turned their eyes green. Felborne didn't actually drink fel blood but using demon magic turned them green, etc. Orcs are similarly susceptible, though there's degrees to it. You'd not insta-turn green from being a warlock, but over time it would be inevitable. In Gul'dan's case, he had to drink the blood to turn green. AU!Draenor was never as fel corrupted as Outland which was leaking the Twisting Nether.

[Tanaria]

As said in the main post, it's perfectly possible for a warlock to start out brown, but they won't stay that way, especially not given the general PC power level lore-wise. But that point is a lot less relevant than the overall one, which is how it undermines the core race identity. Rejection of fel is the founding event and most recurring element of the Mag'har, it's what they're named for. Ditching it as a 'by the way' offshoot has no benefits. It's not on the level of Lightforged warlocks (or Lightforged Death Knights for that matter) but it's shit.

Blizzard will have a hard time explaining this one to be honest.
I'm not entirely sold on the small snippet for the Lightforged Warlock lore reason tbh.

Night Elves, Kul'Tiran and Zandalari are the only 3 I can get behind. (Yes, Night Elves because if your going to semi-welcome back Demon Hunters, whom are half demons themselves, then...you can't really moan if a few Night Elves decide to take up the art of being a Warlock.)
Draenei might make sense, given not all Eredar Warlocks were Man'ari. Plus, the Broken Draenei have Warlocks within their ranks, so I suppose we do have a reason on that front.

[Triceron]

Lolwat, the Mag'har are an unbroken line from the Iron Horde. Even with the clan focus of the orcish heritage questline, the MU orcs are LARPing based on memories of their own clan identity as there's no genuine article left. They're deliberately servicing the WC2/Iron Horde/Garrosh and WC3/Vanilla/Thrall lines of the orcish identity.

Yet their culture and traditions remain the same, even with AU shenanigans in play. Blizzard intentionally kept those traditions. Everything from ancestral worship, connection to the elements and the wild, down to the Mak'gora.

Just like if a Stormwind Human gets the Worgen Curse wouldn't remain a standard Human, they would be considered Worgen. Make sense? Even if the transition may be slow or controlled, they technically aren't the former, they are the latter. Much like how Alleria controlling her Void Powers doesn't retain her High Elf status; she is a Void Elf now too.

And we're gonna get those same problems once they open up to Void Elf Paladins and such.

[Super Dickmann]

Blizzard will have a hard time explaining this one to be honest.
I'm not entirely sold on the small snippet for the Lightforged Warlock lore reason tbh.

Night Elves, Kul'Tiran and Zandalari are the only 3 I can get behind. (Yes, Night Elves because if your going to semi-welcome back Demon Hunters, whom are half demons themselves, then...you can't really moan if a few Night Elves decide to take up the art of being a Warlock.)
Draenei might make sense, given not all Eredar Warlocks were Man'ari. Plus, the Broken Draenei have Warlocks within their ranks, so I suppose we do have a reason on that front.

Zandalari should've already had warlocks, see demoniacs, ditto Highmountain tauren, god knows that's the only one of their tribes that was remotely interesting. I've ragged on the Shen'dralar enough when it comes to Night Elves, but the race that started demon hunters having locks in a similar social state is fine. The motivation gave the LF Draenei could conceivably work for a regular draenei and WoD already had draenei going warlock. In ideal circumstances, neither regular Draenei nor LF would get warlock, at least not without a Broken allied race, but LF is worse because it's another in the by now endless line of points about how meaningless Lightforging is.

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Yet their culture and traditions remain the same, even with AU shenanigans in play. Blizzard intentionally kept those traditions. Everything from ancestral worship, connection to the elements and the wild, down to the Mak'gora.

Of course, those are baseline orc points. The attitude to war, leadership and industry are the points of differentiation which've been ragged on about in every appearance. Those same points would see every troll tribe being the same, because they all have loa, go on about juju and have a funny accent. It's pants on head retarded.

[Izalla]

@Izalla

Elves have a similar gig going. Blood Elves by and large didn't use fel magic (they should have and that explanation also should be cut, but that's another topic), but just siphoning from animals and the ambience in Silvermoon turned their eyes green. Felborne didn't actually drink fel blood but using demon magic turned them green, etc. Orcs are similarly susceptible, though there's degrees to it. You'd not insta-turn green from being a warlock, but over time it would be inevitable. In Gul'dan's case, he had to drink the blood to turn green. AU!Draenor was never as fel corrupted as Outland which was leaking the Twisting Nether.

Thanks for that. I'm not a fan of opening up all the races to all the classes even though surely there must be outliers for every race, but mostly because I don't think Blizz will do it justice. If you got spat on and cursed at like a new DK every time you tried to walk by your own people as a draenei (of either kind) or mag'har warlock, then sure. But there is no way Blizz is gonna add that level of depth to NPC interactions for specific race and class combos to show how bizarre or taboo they are.

I've still barely accepted Tauren paladins even though the whole sun worship side of things makes enough sense. In game they have no unique identity to reflect that...

[Tanaria]

Thanks for that. I'm not a fan of opening up all the races to all the classes even though surely there must be outliers for every race, but mostly because I don't think Blizz will do it justice. If you got spat on and cursed at like a new DK every time you tried to walk by your own people as a draenei (of either kind) or mag'har warlock, then sure. But there is no way Blizz is gonna add that level of depth to NPC interactions for specific race and class combos to show how bizarre or taboo they are.

I've still barely accepted Tauren paladins even though the whole sun worship side of things makes enough sense. In game they have no unique identity to reflect that...

Well that's a thing for most races - there's no identity to reflect what or who they are.

As a Sin'dorei fan, where is the Blood Mage identity that was such a big part of their initial introduction?

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Zandalari should've already had warlocks, see demoniacs, ditto Highmountain tauren, god knows that's the only one of their tribes that was remotely interesting. I've ragged on the Shen'dralar enough when it comes to Night Elves, but the race that started demon hunters having locks in a similar social state is fine. The motivation gave the LF Draenei could conceivably work for a regular draenei and WoD already had draenei going warlock. In ideal circumstances, neither regular Draenei nor LF would get warlock, at least not without a Broken allied race, but LF is worse because it's another in the by now endless line of points about how meaningless Lightforging is.

I do agree; however after the initial outrage, I have seen more people come to terms with Draenei Warlocks (not LF, but regular Draenei.)

[Izalla]

Well that's a thing for most races - there's no identity to reflect what or who they are.

As a Sin'dorei fan, where is the Blood Mage identity that was such a big part of their initial introduction?

Most of the blood mage spells are spread out between mages and warlocks, no? So you can kinda roleplay as a blood mage from either class without too much issue. Blood Elves barely have a unique identity at all anymore after they were redeemed at the end of TBC though.

[Tanaria]

Most of the blood mage spells are spread out between mages and warlocks, no? So you can kinda roleplay as a blood mage from either class without too much issue. Blood Elves barely have a unique identity at all anymore after they were redeemed at the end of TBC though.

Well yes, but Blood Magi have always been mentioned to be their own individual and unique thing. In MoP, Rommath is ordered to assemble the Blood Magi. Not the Magisters or the Silvermoon Arcanists. To me, it's implied the Blood Magi are their own thing entirely and deserves the utmost representation.

We've got Mages which are an integral part to Quel'Thalas and the Blood Elves, but where is the identity for Blood Magi in the available classes we have?

Where is the identity that this lady has?
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Bloodmage_Lynnore

[Izalla]

Well yes, but Blood Magi have always been mentioned to be their own individual and unique thing.

We've got Mages which are an integral part to Quel'Thalas and the Blood Elves, but where is the identity for Blood Magi in the available classes we have?

Where is the identity that this lady has?
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Bloodmage_Lynnore

Blood magic has been used so often lately I'm surprised they haven't expanded it beyond blood death knights.

[Super Dickmann]

As a Sin'dorei fan, where is the Blood Mage identity that was such a big part of their initial introduction?

Blood Elves becoming red high elves post-TBC killed the race most closely tied to warlocks except orcs in their crib and they never got their warlock character. In fact, no one did. There's more relevant warlocks in the WC2 era than there have been in the entirety of the WoW Horde's lifespan. You know you're shit out of luck when Neeru Fireblade is actually among your most prominent characters and he's been playing on the rope for nigh on ten years now.