Paragons of the Klaxxi Heroic 25

[Dracodraco]

I personally remember watching our stream, 'cause I can't raid, throughout the whole 7 days or so of progress, bar the last day 'cause I started having severe headaches and sinus inflamation caused by a broken tooth. I can ask Spite if he streamed the day they killed it if you want.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE8dscGMJbQ
I don't know much about the fight, so judge for yourselves. All I know from the first 50ish or so pulls I was in when I was still playing is that we always killed the guy with bloods first, and that Slavik is an off-spec tank, 'cause our guild only has 2 actual tanks.
There's no logs for anything this week, not just Klaxxi I think. We don't have a guy dedicated to do WoL, it's just occasionally done by whoever can be bothered, which quite often can be no one.

And as for the gaining ranks part, compared to Ragnaros, or 1st 2 MoP tiers, ER dropped 20 ranks, or even more, so I'm quite sure BoP-ing a tank is not why we're at this "high" rank (not being top50 with 5d a week raiding is shameful imho) atm lol.

Man, four rogues *drool*.
Also, killing kaztik before lyokuk is... Unorthodox :P. Tune in at 6:30, watch how fiery edges JUST manage to end before a reave. If you'd killed kaztik just two seconds quicker, both would have gone out at the same time. Thats uh... Risky to say the least .

[Gliff]

It sucks this exists because now we are forced to use this or we will be passed by everyone who does use it.

A low hour guild like us pride ourselves on killing hard bosses in way less attempts which is why we go way up in rankings at the end of the tier (from 48 to 28 in the last 3 bosses last tier). A situation like this, where one of the major road blocks is being blown past, means we wont be able to make up for the lack of hours we put in.

Sucks.

[Mirri]

It sucks this exists because now we are forced to use this or we will be passed by everyone who does use it.

A low hour guild like us pride ourselves on killing hard bosses in way less attempts which is why we go way up in rankings at the end of the tier (from 48 to 28 in the last 3 bosses last tier). A situation like this, where one of the major road blocks is being blown past, means we wont be able to make up for the lack of hours we put in.

Sucks.

Yea this Strat makes paragons a totally free loot boss. You just need to do the trash, pull the boss and hop the tanks.
And that's all you need to do to collect the loot. /sarcasm

[Sprucelee]

The guilds doth protest too much, methinks

[Gliff]

Yea this Strat makes paragons a totally free loot boss. You just need to do the trash, pull the boss and hop the tanks.
And that's all you need to do to collect the loot. /sarcasm

Clearly not what Im saying but guilds were taking 3 lockouts to kill the boss before and now some are doing it in 1. Big difference.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

Yea this Strat makes paragons a totally free loot boss. You just need to do the trash, pull the boss and hop the tanks.
And that's all you need to do to collect the loot. /sarcasm

Yeah, everyone knows that the only part of the fight that really matters is the 'hard' part, and you instantly progress through every other phase in any multiphase encounter.

[Gliff]

The guilds doth protest too much, methinks

Ya its not as big of a deal as some are making it out to be.

[Frozendekay]

It sucks this exists because now we are forced to use this or we will be passed by everyone who does use it.

A low hour guild like us pride ourselves on killing hard bosses in way less attempts which is why we go way up in rankings at the end of the tier (from 48 to 28 in the last 3 bosses last tier). A situation like this, where one of the major road blocks is being blown past, means we wont be able to make up for the lack of hours we put in.

Sucks.

We're kind of in a worse position where we started progressing before this broke and had to make a decision after 70 pulls - we chose not to use this cheesy strat though. Really hope it gets fixed, but I'm expecting it not to. Blizzard is hardly consistent with this kind of thing (although Primordius was fixed quickly).

[Skroe]

We're kind of in a worse position where we started progressing before this broke and had to make a decision after 70 pulls - we chose not to use this cheesy strat though. Really hope it gets fixed, but I'm expecting it not to. Blizzard is hardly consistent with this kind of thing (although Primordius was fixed quickly).

This is nothing like Primordius. That was simply not doing any fight mechanics. This just changes the strat to deal with different mechanics - all the mechanics are still there and dealt with (indeed, isn't it Korven's buff that is used by the skeer tank post-Korven? Thus it is being used the way it was clearly designed?). Nothin cheesy about it. I'd actually say intended. Cheesy is the old Shaman AG Tsulong thing. Cheesy is the 10m Dark Animus zerg strat. Cheesy was Nourshen when 5.4 hit.

There is absolutely nothing cheesy about this. And 70 pulls is nothing on the boss by the way. That's like 2 days.

[Gliff]

This is nothing like Primordius. That was simply not doing any fight mechanics. This just changes the strat to deal with different mechanics - all the mechanics are still there and dealt with (indeed, isn't it Korven's buff that is used by the skeer tank post-Korven? Thus it is being used the way it was clearly designed?). Nothin cheesy about it. I'd actually say intended. Cheesy is the old Shaman AG Tsulong thing. Cheesy is the 10m Dark Animus zerg strat. Cheesy was Nourshen when 5.4 hit.

There is absolutely nothing cheesy about this. And 70 pulls is nothing on the boss by the way. That's like 2 days.

How is skipping mechanics not cheesy? You can argue that it is 1 of many mechanics in the fight but you cannot argue that this strat makes the fight incredibly easier. I find it funny that you guys and Huge in japan locked your logs. If you truly think it wasnt cheesy and there was nothing wroth with it then why not make your logs public?

I really dont care that much but dont sit here and say this strat, whether it was creative use of mechanics or not, isnt cheesy compared to having to deal with bloods.


HAHAHAHAH 70 pulls isnt a lot? You realize that is my guilds whole raid week right? Maybe not for guilds that raid as much as you guys but for us that is a ton.

[Discomboz]

I don't understand how you think this isn't cheesy. And no, all the mechanics are not there. I can understand that with Korven's amber ability that it takes away the bloods from spawning. That's actually apart of the fight and is most likely intended. However using HoP to completely remove that boss from the encounter is silly. You can't honestly tell me that increased damage from him is hard to handle? Hopefully this gets fixed because it honestly makes this boss an absolute joke. Like what was said earlier, a boss that normally took 3 lockouts becomes 1 lockout? Thats silly.

[Mirri]

How is skipping mechanics not cheesy? You can argue that it is 1 of many mechanics in the fight but you cannot argue that this strat makes the fight incredibly easier. I find it funny that you guys and Huge in japan locked your logs. If you truly think it wasnt cheesy and there was nothing wroth with it then why not make your logs public?

I really dont care that much but dont sit here and say this strat, whether it was creative use of mechanics or not, isnt cheesy compared to having to deal with bloods.


HAHAHAHAH 70 pulls isnt a lot? You realize that is my guilds whole raid week right? Maybe not for guilds that raid as much as you guys but for us that is a ton.

Didn't you just claim a few posts above that you are guys are so good that you need way less time than other guilds to kill hard bosses ? So just use the Strat which has bloods spawning and kill the boss faster than everyone else. I don't see the problem here since you guys are apparently so much better than the rest in terms of progress per hour raided.

[Sprucelee]

This is nothing like Primordius. That was simply not doing any fight mechanics. This just changes the strat to deal with different mechanics - all the mechanics are still there and dealt with (indeed, isn't it Korven's buff that is used by the skeer tank post-Korven? Thus it is being used the way it was clearly designed?). Nothin cheesy about it. I'd actually say intended. Cheesy is the old Shaman AG Tsulong thing. Cheesy is the 10m Dark Animus zerg strat. Cheesy was Nourshen when 5.4 hit.

There is absolutely nothing cheesy about this. And 70 pulls is nothing on the boss by the way. That's like 2 days.

You deal with less of the difficult mechanics concurrently. Trading more tank damage for not having to deal with any of the more difficult mechanics overlapping is an easy choice and puts pressure on less people.

It's one thing to argue that it is not exploiting, but to argue it is not easier is kinda funny to see

Edit: Oh, and 70 pulls is about what we work each week as a limited schedule guild @ 3 days. For reference we got Siege in just under 75, so being at 70 means we are pretty committed and approaching a kill hopefully Far from "nothing"..

[Dracodraco]

Erm. To the people constantly going "3 reset boss now only takes 1!!!!"

Have you considered a much more major difference is that just 2-3 weeks ago, people had an average of 7-8 item levels less? And the fact that the boss has multiple very strict "soft"-timers (killing korven before amber CD is up, killing xaril ASAP, beating manipulator before too many kuchong's mature, and the overall enrage timer), that's become increasingly easier to deal with because of gear.

I think people tend to forget that the reason top-guilds bang their heads against encounters for as many attempts as they do (+200 in the case of paragons?) is because meeting the DPS checks in their gear can be extremely RNG.

[Discomboz]

I'm pretty sure its still taking 2-3 weeks for guilds to kill this boss. While gear does make this boss easier by not having to worry about the dps checks some mechanics still take time to learn.

[Sprucelee]

I'm pretty sure its still taking 2-3 weeks for guilds to kill this boss. While gear does make this boss easier by not having to worry about the dps checks some mechanics still take time to learn.

Would seem so, the last "non-cheesy" US kills took about 16-17 days from Siege for 5 day guilds at about a 572 ilvl (currently).

Edit: Anyway, GL to everyone on Garrosh!

[CausalXXLinkXx]

I find it funny that you guys and Huge in japan locked your logs. If you truly think it wasnt cheesy and there was nothing wroth with it then why not make your logs public?

We have had our logs locked since Siegecrafter, the fight before this boss. If you're going to make claims atleast do your research instead of spouting off whatever garbage you want to.

[Felocity]

I find it funny that you guys and Huge in japan locked your logs.

Our logs have been private since before we killed Siegecrafter.

[Skroe]

How is skipping mechanics not cheesy? You can argue that it is 1 of many mechanics in the fight but you cannot argue that this strat makes the fight incredibly easier. I find it funny that you guys and Huge in japan locked your logs. If you truly think it wasnt cheesy and there was nothing wroth with it then why not make your logs public?

I really dont care that much but dont sit here and say this strat, whether it was creative use of mechanics or not, isnt cheesy compared to having to deal with bloods.


HAHAHAHAH 70 pulls isnt a lot? You realize that is my guilds whole raid week right? Maybe not for guilds that raid as much as you guys but for us that is a ton.

Well first, I'm not going to discuss what strat we did, because frankly, I rather enjoy the nice tall and high wall behind us and I don't want to help the competition. I'm keenly aware of the nuances and specifics of both strats, however. We've kept our logs for Paragons and Garrosh attempts private, as is standard for those two fights in many guilds. Promethian, last I checked, didn't post their kill or logs for Paragons (I could be out of date on this). Garrosh logs are surprisingly hard to come by, especially if you want to see something different. Believe me, I've been looking.

We're keeping them private because the difficulty in the encounter lies in it's very many nuances, not the base form of the mechanics. We discovered some pretty great solutions to these nuances in obscure but very successful guilds logs that you won't find unless you know where to look for them. We have every intent to keep them close to the vest. We're not even going to put out or video for Paragons until Garrosh is dead.

If you think difficulty in the fight lies in dealing with the first three, you're mistaken about the structure of the fight. I made that mistake actually. I got my guilds hopes up for a kill a bit earlier than I should have, because I underestimated the last half of the fight. I said we were "close" probably two nights early early. I glossed over the difficulties of the later part of the fight. Big mistake. If you ask me, the last half of the fight, post Xaril, is much harder than the first. Kaztik and getting picked off by various things absolutely sucks. As I said a few posts ago, we wiped post-enrage with 7% left on our last mob repeatedly, only to kill it with 15s+ left on enrage, simply because we had no one get picked off. That has nothing to do with bloods.

We're not making our logs public because we don't want people to know what we're doing in the fight or what days we're raiding as we finish of the tier. We actually did a Monday raid this week (very, very rare for us), and made the very informed decision (based on our guild's gear level compared to other guilds) to raid extended on Tuesday. We really wanted that US 12th kill that Supermassive got. 13th is pretty good too. But we're on course for our best finish to a tier ever, and we want to make use of every advantage we got.

As far as this strat goes though, it would be cheesy if like, Skeer's ability to cast Bloodletting was actually prevented by like, putting him slighting into some wall or room decoration, he he couldn't get LoS on the tank or something. Casting a hand of protection to prevent physical damage of a specific hit has been used on many fights going back years. It moves the goal posts, to say that somehow, this one should be different. The ability specifically says "Physical damage", just like "Strong Legs" for the Encase in Amber, Korven's buff was clearly specifically designed to counter Bloodletting. Clearly a fight with 3 bosses is designed to have them killed, in some way, in any order. There hasn't been a council fight ever, where there was an actual impossible order... just less and more difficult. Until you get the Korven buff, the only way to prevent blood spawn is to not get hit by the Bloodletting via HoP or DS. Without that, there is no way to do heroic without killing skeer first. That's ridiculous. It would also be a first.

That is why I think the premise of the argument is wrong. Bloodletting says "Physical" very clearly. Korven's buff is designed to prevent bloodletting. Skeer spawns before Korven in a specific fixed order. I think this was intended as the way to do it if you want to kill Skeer later, which is incidentally the only way to kill Skeer later. I think the premise that somehow, some "flag" got looked over is absurd, because of the manner of Korven's buff and the wordering/workings of Bloodletting. And you still have to deal with every single mob and their abilities. It doesn't somehow remove Skeer from the raid. You still have to deal with him. Hell, look at the Russian video's tank on grid. He's getting destroyed and uses Korven's buff in this narrow window. It's perfectly legitimate, and not cheesy at all. It just changed the problem.

I really just think everyone looked at the "standard" strat that the World Top 10 did, assumed it was the only way, and got caught by surprise by a nuance they didn't appreciate but was exploited by obscure but successful guilds.

Also this is a fight where, if you look at logs, guilds put in 24-35 attempts per night depending on their stage of progression. Only 70 at your riad means you're probably 3 weeks out on the boss. Maybe 4. And that goes for any strat, by the way.

[Gliff]

We have had our logs locked since Siegecrafter, the fight before this boss. If you're going to make claims atleast do your research instead of spouting off whatever garbage you want to.

Bullshit because we were looking at you Paragons logs last night to see if you guys used this strat. Today they are private.

- - - Updated - - -

Didn't you just claim a few posts above that you are guys are so good that you need way less time than other guilds to kill hard bosses ? So just use the Strat which has bloods spawning and kill the boss faster than everyone else. I don't see the problem here since you guys are apparently so much better than the rest in terms of progress per hour raided.

Dont put words in my mouth. i never said that.