Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Krastyn]

That is literally what you are defending vigilantism.

I think I know what I'm saying, and you clearly do not.

Do I think a "militia" should be allowed to patrol the streets of Kenosha while armed? Yes. The law allows this.

Do I think it is a good idea? No, it's fucking stupid. I'd prefer if they just patrolled the streets with their cellphones out, recording what they want and submitting anything they feel is a violation of the law to police. I think allowing the open carry of weapons in public is stupid. It's not illegal in Wisconsin though.

Standing guard in front of a property does not make you a vigilante. If that were the case, the vast majority of security guards would be vigilante's as the vast majority don't actually have any more legal power than a regular citizen. Furthermore, vigilantism isn't actually against the law in most places. Acts one carries out in the process can be. Setting up a community watch, by your definition can be vigilantism.

The laws set up are dumb (and specifically to Wisconsin, their sloppy gun laws for <18). But they're the laws Rittenhouse will be judged against.

I can be for saying he will get off based on current evidence and still be against vigilantism. They're not mutually exclusive.

[JohnBrown1917]

I think I know what I'm saying, and you clearly do not.

Do I think a "militia" should be allowed to patrol the streets of Kenosha while armed? Yes. The law allows this.

Do I think it is a good idea? No, it's fucking stupid. I'd prefer if they just patrolled the streets with their cellphones out, recording what they want and submitting anything they feel is a violation of the law to police. I think allowing the open carry of weapons in public is stupid. It's not illegal in Wisconsin though.

Standing guard in front of a property does not make you a vigilante. If that were the case, the vast majority of security guards would be vigilante's as the vast majority don't actually have any more legal power than a regular citizen. Furthermore, vigilantism isn't actually against the law in most places. Acts one carries out in the process can be. Setting up a community watch, by your definition can be vigilantism.

The laws set up are dumb (and specifically to Wisconsin, their sloppy gun laws for <18). But they're the laws Rittenhouse will be judged against.

I can be for saying he will get off based on current evidence and still be against vigilantism. They're not mutually exclusive.

Security guards are hired by whoever owns the properity, that is a far cry away from what what Rittenhouse was doing.

[Bodakane]

I think I know what I'm saying, and you clearly do not.

Do I think a "militia" should be allowed to patrol the streets of Kenosha while armed? Yes. The law allows this.

Do I think it is a good idea? No, it's fucking stupid. I'd prefer if they just patrolled the streets with their cellphones out, recording what they want and submitting anything they feel is a violation of the law to police. I think allowing the open carry of weapons in public is stupid. It's not illegal in Wisconsin though.

Standing guard in front of a property does not make you a vigilante. If that were the case, the vast majority of security guards would be vigilante's as the vast majority don't actually have any more legal power than a regular citizen. Furthermore, vigilantism isn't actually against the law in most places. Acts one carries out in the process can be. Setting up a community watch, by your definition can be vigilantism.

The laws set up are dumb (and specifically to Wisconsin, their sloppy gun laws for <18). But they're the laws Rittenhouse will be judged against.

I can be for saying he will get off based on current evidence and still be against vigilantism. They're not mutually exclusive.

Armed protection of property you don't own nor were hired by owners or government to protect, is absolutely vigilantism, Full stop. Not up for argument.

Vigilante: A member of a self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law enforcement in their community without legal authority, typically because the legal agencies are thought to be inadequate.

[Coolthulhu]

What video was he tripped in?

Stop right there, I'm not a native speaker and it's 3 am here, I've never intended to say he could've been tripped - what I was supposed to write, as I did already multiple times and as I'm going to have to show below by quoting myself since you both either have very short memories or are very good at picking up a convenient mistake and ignoring the rest, was that he tripped/fell on his own.

No.

It didn't happen. There's video. There's eye witness testimony. No one, anywhere, says he was tackled or even possibly tackled. He wasn't tripped by anyone. He tripped on his own. He wasn't;t touched before the first shooting and neither was his gun.

You need to acknowledge this and quit trying to leave the door open for bullshit that didn't happen. I won't play that game.

I'm tired of you telling me what I can and can't do. Either answer my questions or admit that you're unwilling or unable to do so. I've already stated I'm uninvested hence uninformed saved for a video and a couple of short articles hence open to the possibility that he tripped on his own. When I wrote "he might've been tripped", it was a mistake due to the language barrier and the time at which I'm writing. I wrote that once, in mistake, compare it to how many times I didn't suggest he was tripped by someone:

He was chased, he fell, some guy was on him, and this happened after a "get him" was yelled, along with other things I'm unable to hear/discern but were likely on the same wavelength. So by lex parsimoniae he panicked when he fell and opened fire because of that.

Did it not look like he was tackled - and even if he wasn't and just tripped

I find it irrelevant whether he fell because he was tackled or because he tripped.

[Draco-Onis]

I think I know what I'm saying, and you clearly do not.

Do I think a "militia" should be allowed to patrol the streets of Kenosha while armed? Yes. The law allows this.

Do I think it is a good idea? No, it's fucking stupid. I'd prefer if they just patrolled the streets with their cellphones out, recording what they want and submitting anything they feel is a violation of the law to police. I think allowing the open carry of weapons in public is stupid. It's not illegal in Wisconsin though.

Standing guard in front of a property does not make you a vigilante. If that were the case, the vast majority of security guards would be vigilante's as the vast majority don't actually have any more legal power than a regular citizen. Furthermore, vigilantism isn't actually against the law in most places. Acts one carries out in the process can be. Setting up a community watch, by your definition can be vigilantism.

The laws set up are dumb (and specifically to Wisconsin, their sloppy gun laws for <18). But they're the laws Rittenhouse will be judged against.

I can be for saying he will get off based on current evidence and still be against vigilantism. They're not mutually exclusive.

Security guards are hired by the owners of properties, they have licenses, training, community watches are protected by stand your ground type laws they reside where they patrol. There is no other definition of what Rittenhouse did but vigilantism, you are saying it's perfectly fine for any citizen to pick up a gun they don't have a license for and patrol the streets giving "protection" to whoever they want in another state.

[Bodakane]

I'm tired of you telling me what I can and can't do. Either answer my questions or admit that you're unwilling or unable to do so. I've already stated I'm uninvested hence uninformed saved for a video and a couple of short articles hence open to the possibility that he tripped on his own. When I wrote "he might've been tripped", it was a mistake due to the language barrier and the time at which I'm writing. I wrote that once, in mistake, compare it to how many times I didn't suggest he was tripped by someone:

Then fuck it, why stop there? Why not open yourself to the possibility that aliens came down, used embiggening rays to embiggen rats, trained them how to spell then made them send Rosenbaum encoded messages that told him to tackle Rittenhouse, steal his wallet and use what little money was in there to buy roses for the mayor??/; I mean why the hell not, amirite?

You, Coolthulu, literally introduced that Kyle was tackled, then changed it to tripped then changed it to possibly tripped and you did it without a fucking shred of information indicating any of it. And instead of admitting it is not a possibility, because you queefed it into existence all on your own, you have the gall to get indignant with me because I'm calling bullshit on your...well...bullshit.

[Krastyn]

Security guards are hired by whoever owns the properity, that is a far cry away from what what Rittenhouse was doing.

And community watch groups are organized by the community, and are unpaid.

[Edge-]

The prosecutor is a politician. So is the judge.

And the jury will render a verdict.

[postman1782]

And community watch groups are organized by the community, and are unpaid.

These weren't community watch people though. This was a militia from all over the place.

[Bodakane]

And community watch groups are organized by the community, and are unpaid.

Community watch programs are unarmed and formally asked to be there through a community vote.

Because if they are armed and just show up, they are vigilantes by literal definition.

[Krastyn]

Armed protection of property you don't own nor were hired by owners or government to protect, is absolutely vigilantism, Full stop. Not up for argument.

So community watches, are vigilante's. Which, by in itself per the laws of Wisconsin, is not illegal. Full stop. Not up for argument.

So congrats?

[Bodakane]

So community watches, are vigilante's. Which, by in itself per the laws of Wisconsin, is not illegal. Full stop. Not up for argument.

So congrats?

Sigh.

As I said, community watch programs aren't armed and they are formally asked by the community to be there, usually through a vote. Learn stuff, you might like it.

[Krastyn]

Security guards are hired by the owners of properties, they have licenses, training, community watches are protected by stand your ground type laws they reside where they patrol. There is no other definition of what Rittenhouse did but vigilantism, you are saying it's perfectly fine for any citizen to pick up a gun they don't have a license for and patrol the streets giving "protection" to whoever they want in another state.

I worked as a security guard during university. The first thing that was stated during the extensive 4 hour training (where no certification or licence was given) was that you are not law enforcement. You have no special powers. Your job is to observe and report, and as a last resort, under very specific circumstances, detain. Hired or not, you have no special rights. Community watches do not get special stand your ground laws in the vast majority of cases. They're covered by the same laws a citizen is.

No, a person should not pick up a a gun they don't have a license for. That hasn't been proven in this case. If it was illegal, he should be charged. Those are laws. It has been pointed out several times already though that Wisconson has some badly drafted gun laws that have exemptions for 17 year olds.

There is nothing illegal about a person "patrolling" the streets. What they do when something occurs determines if they are in violation of the law. Why is this so hard to understand?

[Felya]

So community watches, are vigilante's. Which, by in itself per the laws of Wisconsin, is not illegal. Full stop. Not up for argument.

So congrats?

Defund the police?

[postman1782]

I worked as a security guard during university. The first thing that was stated during the extensive 4 hour training (where no certification or licence was given) was that you are not law enforcement. You have no special powers. Your job is to observe and report, and as a last resort, under very specific circumstances, detain. Hired or not, you have no special rights. Community watches do not get special stand your ground laws in the vast majority of cases. They're covered by the same laws a citizen is.

No, a person should not pick up a a gun they don't have a license for. That hasn't been proven in this case. If it was illegal, he should be charged. Those are laws. It has been pointed out several times already though that Wisconson has some badly drafted gun laws that have exemptions for 17 year olds.

There is nothing illegal about a person "patrolling" the streets. What they do when something occurs determines if they are in violation of the law. Why is this so hard to understand?

What you are describing is literally vigilantism.

And no, the laws are pretty clear, the only exemption that Rittenhouse has, is if he was with his parents, and hunting. Not being a vigilante.

[Felya]

There is nothing illegal about a person "patrolling" the streets. What they do when something occurs determines if they are in violation of the law. Why is this so hard to understand?

Why do we need the police?

[Krastyn]

Sigh.

As I said, community watch programs aren't armed and they are formally asked by the community to be there, usually through a vote. Learn stuff, you might like it.

There is nothing against community watch programs being armed, if the laws allow it. Do a quick search. You'll see a few articles from police departments saying that you shouldn't be armed, and you should only observe. Not that you can't be armed. You should follow your own advice, but based on your post history, you won't.

[Felya]

There is nothing against community watch programs being armed, if the laws allow it. Do a quick search. You'll see a few articles from police departments saying that you shouldn't be armed, and you should only observe. Not that you can't be armed. You should follow your own advice, but based on your post history, you won't.

Than why do we need the police? If someone is damaging my stuff, I got a gun...

[Krastyn]

Defund the police?

I'm all for police reform. I think defund the police is a bad term because it doesn't actually imply change to how things are done, just how much money they get.

I'd be for more funding for the police if it meant better training, better support staff, better interaction with mental health services, and less militarization.

[Felya]

I'm all for police reform. I think defund the police is a bad term because it doesn't actually imply change to how things are done, just how much money they get.

I'd be for more funding for the police if it meant better training, better support staff, better interaction with mental health services, and less militarization.

Why do we need police if we have guns? You didn’t answer my question... If someone damages my property, I got a gun... why do we need police?

We have a 17 year old, without any training, that successfully patrolled the streets and defended him self against 3 criminals, with a mob of criminals around him. Why do we need training?