How can there be no trinity?

[Repefe]

Doesn't work the same way as in WoW though because of the way that aggro works in GW1. Yes, there were builds that could absorb, mitigate and avoid damage (Dolyak Signet Warriors, Avoidance Rangers, 55 Monks, 330 Rits, and so on), but they weren't truly tanks in the EQ-Style MMO sense because they didn't hold or generate more aggro than the next guy.

Yep ... in WoW it's tanks job to hold agro and with recent changes it's kind of automatic that mobs are as stupid as they can get and attack the hardest to kill target almost by default, in GW1 it's group effort.

[Squirrelbanes]

Apologies for my blatantly unconstructive post. I was really just trying to demonstrate that this has clearly run it's course. It is only going to turn into another "how can you not be excited for GW2 thread." Direct to sticky, I guess.
I won't be posting in it again, and I suggest others don't either so it can slowly fade from memory and disappear into the forgotten realm of page 2

[Deleted]

Apologies for my blatantly unconstructive post. I was really just trying to demonstrate that this has clearly run it's course. It is only going to turn into another "how can you not be excited for GW2 thread." Direct to sticky, I guess.
I won't be posting in it again, and I suggest others don't either so it can slowly fade from memory and disappear into the forgotten realm of page 2

I didnt qoute the rules becouse of your post Squirrel <3

[Maarius]

official word on the holy trinity dilemma here:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...6#post15395316

it's old news really, for everyone following the game this long, yet new to anyone else.

[Deleted]

And with that great post by Maarius goodbye, the end.

[Fencers]

Oh there were Tanks in GW1 alright.

You had a puller, puller sprints back. Go around a corner, tank stays at the point of the corner. Use survival abilities. People Nuke, Win.

Body blocking isn't tanking. To tank in a trinity system other roles must have the inability to hold threat & live relative to the other 2 roles. Tanking is a control function, but isn't CC or control.

Begin able to take hits, is not tanking. Survival is actually a minor point of trinity system tanking. In the same way a healer role can toss out a smite or some such. Early trinity systems had tanks with little to no survival skills of their own; e.x. Berserkers.

To tank in a trinity system; one must hold artificial threat disproportional to the threat actual of the other two roles.

[ChiliPepper]

I think this subject is tough to grasp for those that have ALWAYS had the trinity. For me it is the other way around and FINALLY a game is coming back to my home(trinity-less). That was Ultima Online. It was brilliant and there wasn't a dedicated anything everyone was responsible for themselves with abilities to "cross heal" and mages to assist in healing others only at times but with no one dedicated. It was all about the exploration and self sufficiency. I started WoW in the late WotLK and played throughout Cata until this godforsaken Raid Finder took away the fun that was progressing into the raids. It is now left to something that is experienced beyond easy mode. Back on topic. The trinity was foreign to me and was hard to understand, wait. ALL i do is damage? ALL he does is heal? WTFZOMG this is odd!! i would say.

Now due to the influence and penetration of WoW the opposite phenomenon is happening. I was bragging about gw2 to some friends and i told them they are taking out the trinity and now every character will be able to heal themselves, support others, damage, and take hits. First thing out of each of their mouths. "Oh! I'll focus on damage then.... ya! ill focus on support....i'll let them hit me" ...i said "/facepalm...."

People just can't grasp it until they see it. For some though it is just the way it should be and thank got for a next gen mmo to bring it BACK. This is not new people, it is just erasing the "innovation" that once was the "trinity"

the point is people just have a hard time thinking outside of the box and understanding this concept.

TL;DR - The trinity used to be new, it wasn't always there. Now people can't understand an mmo without it until they see it.

[Palli]

I don't get what is your point. There will be specs that are better at soaking damage, there will be specs that are better at dealing damage, there will be specs that are better at supporting others. There will be jobs to be done when fighting in group. That are fundamentals of action based rpg combat.

The important thing is you will be able to take ANYONE. How often do you see guildmates struggling to find the rigid tank-dps-heal class setup for group ? Nothing worse than when 4-5 friends want to do something together, but can't because they have classes with wrong roles.

In GW2 everyone is hybrid and you can switch weap sets in fight which will effectively change you from bruiser to support or pure dps. Basically for group combat in GW2 what you need are ppl who want to play together ... not ppl who have classes that can fill these 3 roles and are in the right ratio of tanks:heals:dps.

This is the best explanation I've seen. There really is a trinity. They just renamed it, and changed how you go about setting up that trinity. I am intrigued by the idea, especially not having to wait for tanks or healers. I have a feeling though that 6 months into the release of the game you'll see "LF more, need to have X weapon to tank , Y weapon for heals."

[Malthurius]

This is the best explanation I've seen. There really is a trinity. They just renamed it, and changed how you go about setting up that trinity. I am intrigued by the idea, especially not having to wait for tanks or healers. I have a feeling though that 6 months into the release of the game you'll see "LF more, need to have X weapon to tank , Y weapon for heals."

Skill Tool

I dare you to try and make a build that can only heal (You can't) only tank (you can't) and only dps (you can't). Even if you try to make a build to fill only one role, you can't, it is impossible.

[Valeron]

Skill Tool

I dare you to try and make a build that can only heal (You can't) only tank (you can't) and only dps (you can't). Even if you try to make a build to fill only one role, you can't, it is impossible.

Aye, the mechanics of the game itself prohibit making any sort of dedicated role.

Anyway, I suppose people won't really get it until we all get to play it.

[Fencers]

I have a feeling though that 6 months into the release of the game you'll see "LF more, need to have X weapon to tank , Y weapon for heals."

These things simply can not be done.

All the classes have equal heals. One can't even target another player to heal them. It is also impossible to tank as there is no artificial threat generation regardless of profession or weapon.

The very concept you describe is 100% inaccurate in GW2.

As written by GW2 developer and re-posted for format by Maarius; http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...nity-must-read

[Palli]

Skill Tool

I dare you to try and make a build that can only heal (You can't) only tank (you can't) and only dps (you can't). Even if you try to make a build to fill only one role, you can't, it is impossible.

I never said people will make builds that only heal. But I can foresee that people will be looking for others that are more skilled (skillcap) at doing certain rolls.

[Nitsuj]

This is the best explanation I've seen. There really is a trinity. They just renamed it, and changed how you go about setting up that trinity. I am intrigued by the idea, especially not having to wait for tanks or healers. I have a feeling though that 6 months into the release of the game you'll see "LF more, need to have X weapon to tank , Y weapon for heals."

The different professions have different ways of taking a few hits to the face. I'm pretty sure they are all equal when played correctly, but so far watching the pve videos for GW2, no profession can just stand there like a derp and play like it's a traditional MMO. I've seen vids of Warriors and Guardians (the heavy armor professions) get layed out for not dodging attacks.

Now that said I have no doubt some professions will be easier to control with than others. If a mob attacks a guardian he could switch to his shield, take a few hits, block a big attack, then roll out and go staff and start with some support. If the mob attacks a thief he can throw on a sword and pistol and he has attacks that help him evade and daze his target.

Everyone can do everything.. support, control, damage, and revive. So i doubt you'll see people in a town saying LF 3 Rangers for w/e dungeon just because they can steam roll the content. More than likely with the set up Anet has now you'll see people making friends with good players instead of good professions. The players that refuses to do what they can by keeping every weapon available to them will be left behind because more than likely they will spend a lot of time in the downed state not really helping their buds for being ignorant.

[MissCleo]

My head is going to explode. As Fencers, ChiliPepper, Malthurius, and others have said, there are and have been plenty of other games (MMOs included) that do not have "the trinity" in them. Not every game is a trinity game, and not every game inevitably turns into a trinity game. Will people try to fit GW2 into the trinity mold and sit in town saying "LFM Ascalon Catacombs, need healer"? Some people probably will, but that's their own failure to understand any system other than (a game like) WoW's, not something arising out of necessity or supported by the game design.

Not every game has a trinity system in it. Most games that aren't MMOs don't have a system like this (but some do). Some MMOs don't have a system like this (though a lot of them do). The combat in GW2 is a lot like the combat in an action-RPG or FPS, although there are elements of familiar MMO gameplay in it as well. The trinity is not one of those elements.

[Malthurius]

I never said people will make builds that only heal. But I can foresee that people will be looking for others that are more skilled (skillcap) at doing certain rolls.

It won't be that way because you don't need certain roles. No matter how you build your character, you're going to have some form of control, some form of support, and a way to do damage, no matter what. It turns into an issue of reacting and not planning for certain roles.

The way it's designed, you can have 5 thieves all built the same way and still have everything you need to complete a dungeon.

EDIT - I'm starting to get a headache from banging my head against this brick-wall of ineptitude... I think it's about time I just stopped for a while...

[Repefe]

This is the best explanation I've seen. There really is a trinity. They just renamed it, and changed how you go about setting up that trinity. I am intrigued by the idea, especially not having to wait for tanks or healers. I have a feeling though that 6 months into the release of the game you'll see "LF more, need to have X weapon to tank , Y weapon for heals."

Right ... because ppl enjoy spending hours assembing the most op spec comp to do a normal dungeon they could have done with any 5 professions. This sort of min maxing is what you see in WoW for example when top top top top top end guilds are trying to go for world firsts. I don't think that PvE in GW2 will be about that. And even if it was ... there is still 95% of the playerbase who plays casually and prefere players over professions. So for those at least the system will be good to have.

And the whole renamed trinity that is being spelled over and over ... basically what you people call trinity is combat. You deal damage, you take damage, you sometimes heal ... therefore it's trinity. Gears of War for example ... classic trinity based game. You shoot, you get hit, you regen health when you avoid damage. And since I mentioned GoW, GoW3 has multiplayer so it's also MMO ... follows the same kind of logic.

[Palli]

My head is going to explode. As Fencers, ChiliPepper, Malthurius, and others have said, there are and have been plenty of other games (MMOs included) that do not have "the trinity" in them. Not every game is a trinity game, and not every game inevitably turns into a trinity game. Will people try to fit GW2 into the trinity mold and sit in town saying "LFM Ascalon Catacombs, need healer"? Some people probably will, but that's their own failure to understand any system other than (a game like) WoW's, not something arising out of necessity or supported by the game design.

I just read a little more about the play style. And I do get it. And I have played the non-trinity games before. I do happen to be fond of a trinity approach but it does not mean I wish GW2 would of done it or that I would try to jam it in. But there are pragmatic things to look at. I really like the idea of bring the player not the class now. That is a huge problem in WoW. But at least in WoW a super star player can save a completely fail group in a Dungeon or Raid.

If grouping in GW2 is going to rely on the whole group having to work together and actually be good, then one of two things will happen. The content will be so easy it'll be boring, or casual players will not be able to play it. These are just my predictions, I really hope I am wrong because GW2 looks fantastic.

[Deleted]

Body blocking isn't tanking. To tank in a trinity system other roles must have the inability to hold threat & live relative to the other 2 roles. Tanking is a control function, but isn't CC or control.

Begin able to take hits, is not tanking. Survival is actually a minor point of trinity system tanking. In the same way a healer role can toss out a smite or some such. Early trinity systems had tanks with little to no survival skills of their own; e.x. Berserkers.

To tank in a trinity system; one must hold artificial threat disproportional to the threat actual of the other two roles.

I disagree. Survivability is big part what make tanks. Being able to tank lot of damage before dying is what separate it from others.

GW1 had tanks and quite many speed clearing teams use tanks. It's not necessity to have tank but many use it because having tank to ball up enemies for aoe spike make run very fast. Controlling aggro however isn't just tanks responsibility, just like it didn't use to be just tanks responsibility in wow either.

[Repefe]

If grouping in GW2 is going to rely on the whole group having to work together and actually be good, then one of two things will happen. The content will be so easy it'll be boring, or casual players will not be able to play it. These are just my predictions, I really hope I am wrong because GW2 looks fantastic.

Can I have your crystal ball now pls ? I want to look as well ..

[Blznsmri]

I disagree. Survivability is big part what make tanks. Being able to tank lot of damage before dying is what separate it from others.

GW1 had tanks and quite many speed clearing teams use tanks. It's not necessity to have tank but many use it because having tank to ball up enemies for aoe spike make run very fast. Controlling aggro however isn't just tanks responsibility, just like it didn't use to be just tanks responsibility in wow either.

Then that's not really a tank, that's a controller. Or a shepherd...

---------- Post added 2012-02-08 at 02:51 PM ----------

And copying my post from another thread...


STOP THINKING ABOUT ROLES AND START THINKING ABOUT PLAY-STYLES!

Seriously, these discussions are getting as old as the "GW2 should have Raids!" discussions.

Just try and wrap your head around the fact that Arena Net IS NOT developing their game around the ideas of the necessity of one person being a "Tank," one person being a "Damager" and one person being a "Healer."


Off Topic: You guys have no idea how hard it was for me to not devolve back into my "Curse-like-a-Sailor" native thinking.