Blizzard is making heroics harder than MoP : Good or Bad?

[7seti]

The harder difficulty is challenge modes.

Challenge mode is a loot-free timed mode. It is not the same as a hard, non-timed, loot-rewarding heroic. And that is what we are getting in WoD, with any luck.

Just to repeat: there will be level 100 normal mode dungeons. Easy dungeons are not going away: they are simply no longer going to be the only option.

[Pua]

I think they could work as the PvE equivalent of battlegrounds, with larger groups.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean, Os; what sort of numbers are you looking at?

[Deleted]

I still don't believe Blizzard will introduce heroic difficulty dungeons like they were back in the day (Cata, TBC). There are too many players who think that they MUST and should easily be able to do all the content below raiding, because it's just a "preperation" for it, easy farm and another hurdle to jump over.

Challenge modes are a good concept because the entitled crowd can't bitch about not being able to get the better loot but they must be reworked to include planning, strategy, cc, element of surprise etc. Rushing through a dungeon while looking at the dps meter is not everyone's idea of fun. I just want challenging 5man content, I don't even care about the rewards, just give me that option.

[Dvaldin]

Considering the randomizing option, making heroics more difficult is a terrible idea. Random groups are still kicking people for under-performing (and I'm not talking AFK'ing or poor attitude kicks) in Heroic Dungeons in MoP - and that's not necessary considering how easy they are.

However, if Heroic Dungeons are more difficult for premade groups and similar to how Heroic Scenarios work, I'm fine with that.

For Challenge Dungeons they need to offer some decent reward just for sticking with it and completing the dungeon. Maybe a token system to buy CD gear where the amount you're rewarded is based on how fast you complete it - like say 250 for Gold, 175 for silver, 100 for bronze and 25-50 for just finishing the dungeon while also having certain rewards open up if you make the gold runs. I think all the Challenge rewards, however, should remain cosmetic. I think that'd work for the current CD crowd and perhaps offer some incentive for others to hit them also.

[rated]

Cata dungeons weren't hard, even on heroic. The only thing hard about them was keeping the 2-3 people getting carried out of the spinny electrical death in heroic VC. A couple of acheesements were obnoxious as well, but that was more an issue of herding cats than anything else.

No they were difficult (for the average player), but it was good ! And the thing is this was right at the start of the expansion so once we started to gear out over the course of the game those "difficult" heroics would of became a lot easier, but alas people cried so they nerfed it super early to please a select crowd of people (baddies) then the upgraded gear nerfed it even more.

That's why I don't get why heroics were made so easy right from the start. It's like blizzard had no hindsight that our gear was going to get better and better and the easy content was going to stay the exact same.

Baddies will be baddies no matter the difficulty so I hope blizzard has the balls to not cave into a bunch of people crying.

[Conzar]

Make Heroic Dungeons (formed in LFD) and LFR gated by Proving Grounds. "You cannot queue for this until you have completed Proving Grounds: Silver for this spec." Waiting ages at the start of Grim Batol Heroic for someone who could actually cc in the early days of Cata was a nightmare. Oh, and Blizzard: DON'T CAVE IN THIS TIME!

[Madruga]

EDIT : here is some speculation about how the new gearing system might work if they up the difficulty of heroics. Ordered most easy to most difficult from top to bottom.

Scenarios --> Prepare you for normal dungeons.
Normal Dungeons --> Prepare you for LFR and Heroics
Heroic Scenarios --> Prepare you for LFR and Heroics -Requires Pre-made group.
LFR--> Prepare you for Heroics and Normal Raiding.
Heroics --> Prepare you for Normal Raiding and Challange Mode. -Requires Pre-made group.
Challange Mode --> Prepare you for Normal Raiding and Mythic. -Requires Pre-made group. (Probably will only drop heroic Ilvl loot.)
Normal Raiding -->Has a flex feature installed, harder than LFR but easier than Mythic.
Mythic Raiding --> Most Difficult Raiding difficulty.

Keep in mind WoD will actually have normal dungeons at level cap, so yes there will be an alternative now to heroics. So basically if you don't want to do heroics do normal dungeons instead. LFR and Heroics drop similar gear levels and will prepare you for normal raiding.

I think its odd that you go to raiding environment (LFR) first, and latter is "forced" to return to Heroics to continue the gearing path. Not that wouldn't be a good way to make Heroics harder, but it is a rupture with the established model from since always in MMOs. Also, requiring a pre-made group would go against the Dungeon Finder philosophy... It would be very likely people would simply skip Heroics and go straight to Flex Raiding.

Maybe it would be better to make Normal 5-man as the proper gearing path to raiding, as put Heroics as something more optional, thus enbaling them to be quite harder and require a pre-made.

OR they could make Heroic's difficulty somewhere between Wrath and Cataclysm... Meaning, not as punishing as TBC/Cataclysm, but also not easy as Wrath... and certainly much harder than MoP... And tweek Challenge Modes instead.

I mean, Challenge Modes are already optional and pretty harder than Heroics... What (some) people don't like is the timed run (some... other people love it). Maybe the niche people are asking for in this thread lies with Challenge, and not really Heroics.

[nightfalls]

Make Heroic Dungeons (formed in LFD) and LFR gated by Proving Grounds. "You cannot queue for this until you have completed Proving Grounds: Silver for this spec." Waiting ages at the start of Grim Batol Heroic for someone who could actually cc in the early days of Cata was a nightmare. Oh, and Blizzard: DON'T CAVE IN THIS TIME!

Heroic dungeons shouldn't be gated by anything, just require a premade group. So if you're a baddie, you don't get brought in by anyone. LFR gating by proving grounds is a decent idea but people would have to accept a LOT less people will be doing LFR (which raises the question, why have LFR?).

Gating anything by Proving Grounds is going to significantly reduce the accessibility of content to bads... which isn't a bad idea in itself (pun?) but the point is LFR was meant to be accessible, and Heroics can still be done with premades.

That allows for players (such as friends, for instance?) to carry and teach a "bad" in a preformed group a lot more than making him do PG (alone) will.

[StrayFox]

I think its odd that you go to raiding environment (LFR) first, and latter is "forced" to return to Heroics to continue the gearing path. Not that wouldn't be a good way to make Heroics harder, but it is a rupture with the established model from since always in MMOs. Also, requiring a pre-made group would go against the Dungeon Finder philosophy... It would be very likely people would simply skip Heroics and go straight to Flex Raiding.

Maybe it would be better to make Normal 5-man as the proper gearing path to raiding, as put Heroics as something more optional, thus enbaling them to be quite harder and require a pre-made.

OR they could make Heroic's difficulty somewhere between Wrath and Cataclysm... Meaning, not as punishing as TBC/Cataclysm, but also not easy as Wrath... and certainly much harder than MoP... And tweek Challenge Modes instead.

I mean, Challenge Modes are already optional and pretty harder than Heroics... What (some) people don't like is the timed run (some... other people love it). Maybe the niche people are asking for in this thread lies with Challenge, and not really Heroics.

The pre-made is required so baddies don't que up and have to do it. Also, Heroics wouldn't get skipped because for a skilled player its a faster way to gear for normal raids. For a new player the best way to gear up would be normal dungeons and LFR. Really its just a matter of how skilled you consider yourself.

Heroics wouldn't get skipped and I think its really odd people think its odd heroics are after LFR. Technically they are at the same level as LFR and, yes, you could skip it, but it would take longer for you to get gear. All considering if you aren't good at the game Heroics would take longer than normal dungeons and LFR because you would wipe all the time.

so, to sum it up, its really there to gear you up faster if you consider yourself a good player... also it will satisfy all the people who are looking for challenge.

- - - Updated - - -

What an awful idea.

Explain why its an awful idea? It creates more options and options are always good. Is everyone just angry that Heroics are at the same level as LFR? Its more difficult so if you consider yourself skilled and looking for challenge AND you want to get gear faster... do Heroics. If you'd rather go the easier route do normal dungeons and LFR.

Don't just say "What an awful idea." without explaining yourself.

- - - Updated - - -

The harder difficulty is challenge modes.

Yeah but thats for transmog gear, Heroics should be difficult as well. Why make heroics and normal dungeons easy at level cap? Its a waste of space. Now they can utilize normal dungeons for the players who want an easier route and heroics for the player who wants a challenging route. Challenge mode is designed like Mythic raiding, the toughest difficulty reserved for the hardcore, super skilled players.

[Osmeric]

I'm not 100% sure what you mean, Os; what sort of numbers are you looking at?

Perhaps as many as 40 people.

[nekobaka]

Perhaps as many as 40 people.

I assume you are referring to the WotLK storming Orgrimmar event. It was kind of a cluster fuck with little clue as what to do other than follow the leader and pew pew. I wonder if the developers can incorporate previous scenario type objectives in such a large group. Given what we know so far about WoD I could see reason for a large scale siege or defense type of scenario. I just dont know if there would only be a few or most scenarios can be made that large scale and how players will react with such group size variance, might be good for variety or irritate those who dont like certain sizes or Blizzard could even fail to get the experience right on ether size. Scenarios is a good option for that situation of players who had wanted to do the storming of Orgrimmar event again without leveling an alt.

[Infernix]

So few people remember how LFG turned into 45mins-1hour queues for DPS before they nerfed the hell out of the game in 4.2.

Go ahead, Blizz, I'm sure we won't see a repeat of early cata where 1.8mil subs dropped in 9 months.

lol

[threads]

The problem with 5 mans being more difficult is the rewards are usually outdated by the 2nd or 3rd week of the xpac when everyone starts raiding. At that point who's going to really want more difficult dungeons that they're probably only running for daily valor?

[Eon Drache]

As long as "harder" Doesn't just mean CC. I felt so bad when we had to kick DKs and warriors in Blackrock caverns in Cataclysm at the start for lack of CC options.

[Osmeric]

I assume you are referring to the WotLK storming Orgrimmar event.

No, I was more thinking of the large scale, cooperative zone events in Rift. They were quite a lot of fun. Larger scale scenarios could duplicate some of that atmosphere.

[Gheld]

I voted penguins because heroics need to feel epic again. And Legendaries need to feel cool, but not so cool that they cause frostbite. Which is why epic loot feels common and uncommons feel rare.

[nekobaka]

So few people remember how LFG turned into 45mins-1hour queues for DPS before they nerfed the hell out of the game in 4.2.

Go ahead, Blizz, I'm sure we won't see a repeat of early cata where 1.8mil subs dropped in 9 months.

lol

My queues was in the 35 minute high range as a DPS and look at LFR with DPS experiencing over an hour queue times and multi hour runs.

At no point did Blizzard say every single sub losses was directly from the difficulty of heroics. Some players viewpoints of Cata launch seem to be very narrow as to what changed and how those changes interacted with each other.
(June 2013)https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...90970947579904

[Response to Cata heroics being perfect thread]
Esp. when they are the only path to progression. If Cata had non-heroic dungeons that could gear you for LFR, it might have worked.

(July 2013)https://twitter.com/OccupyGStreet/st...76849881726977

Q: didn't they[heroics] work in BC?
A: Right. That was the problem with Cata -- matchmaking and no alternatives.
A: But hard+organized = loot efficient with easier+matchmaking = less loot efficient could work.

The problem with 5 mans being more difficult is the rewards are usually outdated by the 2nd or 3rd week of the xpac when everyone starts raiding. At that point who's going to really want more difficult dungeons that they're probably only running for daily valor?

Yet everyone doesnt raid. For those that dont raid the content is still relevant and if properly designed will remain engaging. What is wrong with larger rewards for those who put in more effort? There are alternatives now for those who dont want to do heroics.

[Flutterguy]

The problem with 5 mans being more difficult is the rewards are usually outdated by the 2nd or 3rd week of the xpac when everyone starts raiding. At that point who's going to really want more difficult dungeons that they're probably only running for daily valor?

This right here is the ultimate problem with making 5-mans difficult.

[Deleted]

I would like to see them return to Cata values, simply because I thought they were fine in difficulty. But that's my opinion - MOP HC's weren't stupidly easy like Wrath ones were, but Cata hit the sweet spot for me.

[Darmalus]

No matter how hard you make dungeons at release, they will be faceroll easy when we all outgear them a year later.

MoP Heroics were about right at release, people just don't seem to remember.