20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Wrong metric. Players, not guilds, should be what you're tracking. If raids suddenly go from 10 man to 20 man, it only follows that there will be half as many raiding guilds.

Right, so when my guild died and 90% of us quit the game clearly that contributed somehow to more or the same amount of players raiding. I know I'm hardly alone in that situation, where a guild died and instead of seeking a new guild the majority of the guild opted to simply quit the game. Mythic is an abject failure that has doubtlessly contributed to the decline of the game (I'm aware it isn't the primary factor, but even if only 5% of the people that quit did so as a result of Mythic that is a sizeable loss).

[Deleted]

Well consider that mythic raiding was the best thing about the expansion then I'd say it was a success at least on a personal level. What constitutes a success though? Reception from the top players, participation rates, difficulty? We saw some of the best designed fights in just two raid tiers and while good fights aren't impossible to make without mythic, you seem to get a higher number of good and challenging boss fights with the fixed difficulty. Blast Furnace, Blackhand, Mar'gok, Archimonde, Gorefiend, Ko'ragh, Hans and Franz, Thogar, Kromog, HFCouncil, Xhul'horac, Magtheridon. All of these were solid mythic encounters and some were damn impressive.

I find it kinda odd that the people want small mythic raids when the expansion that introduced them in the first place is almost as hated as WoD was, Cata. MoP wasn't that well received either.

If people are really looking at mythic raiding as a problem then you've lost me because there were far bigger fundamental issues with WoD that left mythic raiding a bit sour for people who couldn't participate in cutting edge content or even challenging non-raid content. Mythic raiding was never an issue, the whole end-game of nothing else but raiding was the problem.

I'd say to those mythic raiding naysayers. Give Legion a chance with it, if Legion turns out to have good end-game content that can be repeated outside of raiding, I think you have the best of both worlds. Good small group content, good large group content. Both together lead to more people subscribed which leaves people with greater opportunities to try mythic raiding and a bigger pool of talent to choose from. It also provides people the opportunity to catch up on gear to the mythic geared players with outside raid content that is actually good.

We had an expansion that failed in almost every aspect but even with that, mythic raiding was still good raiding overall of just 2 raid tiers and no non-raid end game content. Give Legion a chance with it. We could see the best raiding since Ulduar and TBC in Legion if things work out.

[Klingers]

Not sure if 2 raid tiers in 36 months is a big enough sample size to judge if Mythic has killed guilds or not. Some other things might have. Like 2 raid tiers in 36 months.

[Zantos]

I feel we wont know until next expansion. In WoD, is was a disaster. Guilds disbanded left and right. The player base plummeted, and as a result, so did the number of raiders to recruit. Guilds were unable to expand, even if they were still around.

In short, I wouldn't call if a success, but I would call it a Complete failure, though it did see the lowest attendance in raids to date for an expansions mythic scene. However, the declining player base didn't help.

[cuafpr]

20 man fits logically and i think if they stick with it will get better, it allows them to plan for one of each class, some specs variations and design to that raid size/comp vs the other sizes. 15 might have worked out as well any smaller and I don't think it would have worked as well from design POV. Also the small % of players that do mythic so it doesn't change the game for the vast majority

[mopkins]

Right, so when my guild died and 90% of us quit the game clearly that contributed somehow to more or the same amount of players raiding. I know I'm hardly alone in that situation, where a guild died and instead of seeking a new guild the majority of the guild opted to simply quit the game. Mythic is an abject failure that has doubtlessly contributed to the decline of the game (I'm aware it isn't the primary factor, but even if only 5% of the people that quit did so as a result of Mythic that is a sizeable loss).

In my 10 man mythic guild, 9 quit the game completely because of the 20 man mythic change, 1 still raids mythic 20 mans, and I level alts occasionally for the heck of it. So the people suggesting the elimination of 10 man had no effect on player subscriptions are dead wrong. Not sure why they're in so much denial

[Queen of Hamsters]

Fights have been insanely tight and tons of fun, so on that front I'm satisfied. However, I loved 10-man raiding for the small group composition.

WoD being what it was, means Mythic raiding hasn't shown it's full potential just yet. Hoping Legion will bring it to full bloom.

[Goondicker]

They should have kept 10 and 25 man raids, but have them at seperate difficulties like it was pre-Cata.

[Deleted]

They should have kept 10 and 25 man raids, but have them at seperate difficulties like it was pre-Cata.

Whether your intention, that doesn't solve anything for the people that want flex or those that want top difficulty small group content. It adds almost nothing and that system was even worse because 10 man was mostly irrelevant in the eyes of non-pug raiders but maybe that's the solution, who knows.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

I find it kinda odd that the people want small mythic raids when the expansion that introduced them in the first place is almost as hated as WoD was, Cata and MoP wasn't that well received either.

What the fuck are you smoking? WotLK was one of the most popular expansions, MoP was well received by almost anyone who wasn't jumping on the "lolpandas" hate train. WoD managed to beat out Cata in terms of worst expansion to date, and Cata held that title primarily because DS was a terrible raid that lasted far longer than it should've.

[Deleted]

Right, so when my guild died and 90% of us quit the game clearly that contributed somehow to more or the same amount of players raiding. I know I'm hardly alone in that situation, where a guild died and instead of seeking a new guild the majority of the guild opted to simply quit the game. Mythic is an abject failure that has doubtlessly contributed to the decline of the game (I'm aware it isn't the primary factor, but even if only 5% of the people that quit did so as a result of Mythic that is a sizeable loss).

If you had an actual game around mythic raiding, would 5% (a number you randomly pulled) quit if they had good end-game content other than mythic raiding which was likely too hard or cumbersome for them to begin with? You can't say 5% of players quit because of mythic raiding, there was nothing else other than mythic raiding of any good quality in terms of content. No dailies, no dungeons, no scenarios, no open-world stuff, no professions. Nothing of substance was there for people to fall-back on if they didn't/couldn't do mythic raiding.

To me this game was, either you raid or you quit or you PvP for some reason. There was nothing of interest outside of raiding in terms of current content.

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What the fuck are you smoking? WotLK was one of the most popular expansions, MoP was well received by almost anyone who wasn't jumping on the "lolpandas" hate train. WoD managed to beat out Cata in terms of worst expansion to date, and Cata held that title primarily because DS was a terrible raid that lasted far longer than it should've.

When did I mention Wrath? Cata was when the drop started and had even worse raiding content than WoD. Tier 11 was buggy as shit, T12 was good but too short and DS is considered one of the worst tiers. MoP I think was solid but the numbers didn't show that.

[Ebalina]

My guild died because of it, i know that much.

The amount of blizzard lapdogs is this site is off the charts. Countless guilds died because of 20 man mythic, hundreds of thousands arguably quit the game because of it, "huge success though"...

Your guild died because of incompetent structure and officers.
It did not die because you had to increase or decrease the people you play with.

Stubborn people that chose not to accept change get left behind it is that simple.

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Huge failure. When the hardest boss in the game is the attendance boss you know that the format is fail. Currently stuck on manny with 0 progression for the past 4 weeks because of people failing to show and now I am about done raiding. It killed the fun in the game for me personally and I probably will not return in legion knowing the format is staying.

This is not a issue with the format its an issue with the people you chose to play with or recruited.

[Neevs]

I'd say i can see both sides..

For me personally

It was a hugh succes. Compared to what had come before, the heroic content was always undertuned or overtuned in some sence. In some cases the 10 man heroic raiding scene gave you more room, and other aspects that made some fights alot easier than 25 man.
While other fights were alot easier on 25man heroic, especially since you had more Raid CD's and had more of certain classes (10 man heroic halfus was insanely hard in cata)
20 man mythic have brought a very balanced experience, and given us some mechanics that probably wouldn't have made it to the old model, simply since they'd probably be insanly hard in a 10 man enviroment.
A lot of this have tho been made a lot easier with people getting maxed legendary ring and the item upgrade, both acting as a nerf to the content.
For me Mythic have been the only good thing to come out of WoD, and if they'd remove it now I'd see it as a big issue since that would lead to less well balanced raids and thereby less interesting raids. They've gotten better and better at creating mythic content and I believe it will only get better since it allows them to get more creative and able to actually expect that people got certain classes in the group.

For some others - no idea about how many-
It hasn't been a succes. It has made it harder for some guilds to do this content, and been hard for them to adapt to them. amongst the people i know, it's been the middle guilds that have suffered the most. while of cause it's taken them longer to clear heroic, they've still been in the spot of knowing there is "more content" to be done in raiding, but weren't possible for them to do duo to numbers. Some guilds i know have merged to fix this, others haven't been able to find guilds to merge with and/or been able to fix it.

Overall
I'd say that WoDs issue really wasn't the change that came along with Mythic raiding.. The biggest issue was The lack of content and people feeling trapped in their garrisons. This have lead to a lot of people leaving the game. And when a lot of people leave the game, then it causes issues to get the numbers for mythic.
Quite a few people keeps mentioning the issue with recruiting new people, and this become increasingly harder when there are fewer people playing the game.
If you go back this game used to require 25 man in TBC, which is by many viewed as the best expansion.
Back then people didn't view it as a problem.
I think one of the issues is that they first introduced 10 man and then took it back, this forces people to adjust suddenly and becomes an issue for some guilds. But to be fair if you'd revoke it back, so 10 man can be done again, you'd just get a lot of guilds that'll have to adjust to that and it'll create problems yet again.
How they can fix it, I don't know - only way i can see is that they start to add more content to the game and i hope they'll do that in Legion.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

When did I mention Wrath? Cata was when the drop started and had even worse raiding content than WoD. Tier 11 was buggy as shit, T12 was good but too short and DS is considered one of the worst tiers. MoP I think was solid but the numbers didn't show that.

Right here.

I find it kinda odd that the people want small mythic raids when the expansion that introduced them in the first place is almost as hated as WoD was, Cata and MoP wasn't that well received either.

I extrapolated that you were referring to WotLK when you said "expansion that introduced them in the first place is", as it was the first expansion to introduce 10 man heroic(mythic) raiding. You went on to say that "Cata and MoP wasn't that well received either", implying that you were referencing the expansion that introduced 10 man heroic(mythic) raiding in addition to Cata and MoP.

[Detritivores]

Clear success, You had plenty of time to adapt and if your guild died because of that it's because you let her die.

I resent this attitude so very, very much.

I am literally the sole survivor from the 10 man heroic team I started MoP with. In that time, I took the guild over, expanded us to 25 in preparation for mythic, and we are now one of 3 surviving mythic teams on a server that used to have a couple dozen competing in the 10H bracket. It was a lot of hard work, and I'm proud to have pulled it off, but I'm not callous enough to smugly chastise everyone who didn't. Why should they have needed to? This is a game. The beauty of 10 man was that you could do hard content with minimal administrative work. That was super important and appealing in a game with an aging player base who may not have had 6 hours per day to commit to managing their 25 man roster any more.

My guild wasn't killed. But everyone around us was. Which is terrible for us and for the game. Even the 3 that survived are helping fill each others raids on alts at this point just to try to survive until legion. This is why mythic is/was terrible. Conceptually, yes, great. Marginally improved balance and tuning. But just wiping entire server communities off the map was not a reasonable price to pay for that.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

It was good for high end guilds. It kinda sucked for average to emerging higher end guilds. In particularly guilds that were 10 man. Smaller raids were favored by a lot of players and those players totally lost their scene to make something that was already pretty damn good only slightly better. I know for most guilds that failed it wasn't a content wall that stopped them but rather a roster one. They could field 14-18 raiders that can one shot every boss in heroic in a single night but getting that extra 6-8 players they needed to hit 20 ended their dreams. Of course most of these guilds came from 10 man origins in Cata and MoP. But it was highly successful in creating some really good and tightly tuned encounters. It was great to those that were apart of it. I know my guild was and we loved it. But I can see that for my guild to live though the roster turn over several other guilds on the server had to be destroyed. I also saw so many guilds fold and go under because of it. FeelsBadMan. But I guess that is how it had to be so 1% of us could get a fight that took 10 extra pulls.

[mopkins]

Your guild died because of incompetent structure and officers.
It did not die because you had to increase or decrease the people you play with.

Stubborn people that chose not to accept change get left behind it is that simple.

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This is not a issue with the format its an issue with the people you chose to play with or recruited.

Umm I played with my friends. Once they forced us to try to go out and recruit a bunch of kids who are immature and "all bout Dat loot and dps meterzzzz" we quit.

Blizzard introduced 10 man's with kharazan in BC, then further expanded on it in wotlk and further in cata. So to suddenly kill off 10 man raiding roughly 7 years later affected a lot of people. Don't be so dense that you can't understand that

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Your guild died because of incompetent structure and officers.
It did not die because you had to increase or decrease the people you play with.

Stubborn people that chose not to accept change get left behind it is that simple.

That comment shows how serious you take WoW, pretty sad, in fact i feel sorry for you.

Whatever though, i lost nothing, Blizzard in turn lost almost their whole player base over the course of an expansion. "Huge success though".

[Deja Thoris]

Less than 1600 guilds or 32k players have killed the final boss of mythic 10 months in.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it here - it's an abject failure that brought nothing new to the table in terms of quality or mechanics. It also took a lot away from people that like smaller groups.

Tough and fun encounters should be the obstacles designers throw at players, not roster management.

[kaamila]

As someone who raided hardcore in 25s, then 10s and 25s in cata/mop, i tried to give 20 man a shot, played it for 1 tier but got bored with it. aside from the 8-10 people ive raided with for years, everyone else i had no idea who they were because they never talked and/or were new because people would quit/leave every week or so. I can say I had the most fun raiding 10 man in cata/mop. Felt more personal, I knew everyone who was on the roster. We went years with the same roster before having to replace someone, then that new person stayed for years as well. Laughed more, talked more, and personally kills felt more gratifying since in 10 man, 1 death pretty much equaled wipe. Probably wont be buying legion because i dont want to play 20man.