20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Neevs]

I, to like the challenge but I don't see how 20 man adds more challenge in any way. If anything, it makes the fights easier as you have room for every spec thats needed.

What I liked about the smaller groups was that they were more personal. We were all IRL friends and it made the conetnt more fun.
Being forced to get a few random people in is fine of coruse but it doesn't make the raids more fun.

You're right, you can't have a raid team of 20, you have to have a team where some people just aren't going to raid each week. With flex that would not be an issue however and thats one of the best things about that system.

Flex would be a good addition if it was there for all levels of raiding. As it is now, it servers no purpose.

I disagree with 20 man being easier. If you have to make it flex, I'd say that it's possible that they'll quite easily end up in the position that they need to restrict certain mechanics too much, can't make mechanics that caters to the raid having a specific class, and they can end up having to restrict which mechanics they implement based on it needs to be possible to be handled on all raid sizes.

When you can't be certain on the amount of people participating in a fight, you need to in some way make it doable for all the possible raid sizes. And I can't see how they'll do that without making it easier or restrict mechanics. Else we'll just have it "flex" but we'll end up once again in 1 raid size being optimal or maybe even the only doable size, so it would being the same as now. I think tho that the former would be what would be most likely.

IMO what could be a good idea:

• Merge servers to make servers have a large enough player base.
• Remove LFR, i know this is not the most popular idea amongst some people, but imo it doesn't prepare people for raiding and doesn't give a prober feeling of what raiding is.
• If need be add a extra difficulty for flex, above heroic raiding to make sure those people have content even tho they can't do mythic (This idea i'm not certain of since one of the major issues atm is the amount of difficulties and the way that adds to item inflation and the crazy increase in ilevel we'll get across a expansion. - Them crazy numbers)
• If we don't add another difficulty above heroic, for flex, then in some way keep old content worthwhile for a longer periode of time (that HM wasn't worthwhile doing as soon as BRF came out was really sad imo)

[Fenixhart]

I disagree with 20 man being easier. If you have to make it flex, I'd say that it's possible that they'll quite easily end up in the position that they need to restrict certain mechanics too much, can't make mechanics that caters to the raid having a specific class, and they can end up having to restrict which mechanics they implement based on it needs to be possible to be handled on all raid sizes.

When you can't be certain on the amount of people participating in a fight, you need to in some way make it doable for all the possible raid sizes. And I can't see how they'll do that without making it easier or restrict mechanics. Else we'll just have it "flex" but we'll end up once again in 1 raid size being optimal or maybe even the only doable size, so it would being the same as now. I think tho that the former would be what would be most likely.

IMO what could be a good idea:

• Merge servers to make servers have a large enough player base.
• Remove LFR, i know this is not the most popular idea amongst some people, but imo it doesn't prepare people for raiding and doesn't give a prober feeling of what raiding is.
• If need be add a extra difficulty for flex, above heroic raiding to make sure those people have content even tho they can't do mythic (This idea i'm not certain of since one of the major issues atm is the amount of difficulties and the way that adds to item inflation and the crazy increase in ilevel we'll get across a expansion. - Them crazy numbers)
• If we don't add another difficulty above heroic, for flex, then in some way keep old content worthwhile for a longer periode of time (that HM wasn't worthwhile doing as soon as BRF came out was really sad imo)

What is it with people'e obsession of training raiders and removing LFR.

Just stop.

[Deja Thoris]

People could also choose to play a singleplayer game if they prefer to deal with as less people as possible.

Your point is as bad as your grammar. They don't want to deal with as few(!) people as possible, just less than 20.

[Aggrophobic]

Flex mythic would just made it so guilds would use cookiecutter number of players for EACH boss. So if it would be easier with 10 - they would go with 10, or if it would be easier with 30 they would go for 30 players, same if "magic" number would be 10 mages and 2 paladins (etc, etc). 20man Mythic have been made so Blizzard can easier balance encounters, and it did work! People bitching about how it is hard to gather 20 people - just play on heroic! Or find new guild. Or make your own guild.

IMO 20man Mythic is not an issue - real problem is having only 2 raid tiers per expansion ...

What, no I have no problems clearing mythic with my current guild (been in the same guild for a long time). I was just saying that I had more fun raiding with a smaller team. Raiding HC is not an option, wheres the fun in that?

I was not asking for easier raids, just smaller groups.

I disagree with 20 man being easier. If you have to make it flex, I'd say that it's possible that they'll quite easily end up in the position that they need to restrict certain mechanics too much, can't make mechanics that caters to the raid having a specific class, and they can end up having to restrict which mechanics they implement based on it needs to be possible to be handled on all raid sizes.

When you can't be certain on the amount of people participating in a fight, you need to in some way make it doable for all the possible raid sizes. And I can't see how they'll do that without making it easier or restrict mechanics. Else we'll just have it "flex" but we'll end up once again in 1 raid size being optimal or maybe even the only doable size, so it would being the same as now. I think tho that the former would be what would be most likely.

IMO what could be a good idea:

• Merge servers to make servers have a large enough player base.
• Remove LFR, i know this is not the most popular idea amongst some people, but imo it doesn't prepare people for raiding and doesn't give a prober feeling of what raiding is.
• If need be add a extra difficulty for flex, above heroic raiding to make sure those people have content even tho they can't do mythic (This idea i'm not certain of since one of the major issues atm is the amount of difficulties and the way that adds to item inflation and the crazy increase in ilevel we'll get across a expansion. - Them crazy numbers)
• If we don't add another difficulty above heroic, for flex, then in some way keep old content worthwhile for a longer periode of time (that HM wasn't worthwhile doing as soon as BRF came out was really sad imo)

Adding extra difficulties would not help though, would it? What would be the point?

Anyhow, the 10 man HC worked well in Cata and MoP, I don't see why mythic would not work as flex. Raids were not easier back then. I'm sure some bosses were easy on 10 and some on 20 but so what? Some bosses are really easy on mythic while other are super hard, the number of people will not change that.

As I said, it would really help with the issue of people leaving becase they have to sit on a few raids.

[Fenixhart]

Your point is as bad as your grammar. They don't want to deal with as few(!) people as possible, just less than 20.

No see, the thing is people want choice.

So That sure, you can go with 25 people or 10.

In WoD? 20 or bust.

Which is dumb when the rest of the raiding difficullties are "Hey, take anywhere from 10 to even 30, heck!" To sudddenly shift gears to go "20 or done"

[Deja Thoris]

The problem is that for them to "turn it on" the encounters would need to be designed with Flex difficulty in mind from the beginning thereby inhibiting the developers from creating mechanics tuned for a fixed raid size.

Can you name any mechanics this expansion tuned for a fixed raid size? If you can - how hard would it be to tune them to flex and would it diminish the impact or quality of the encounter once the bigboys are done?

I'm not advocating flex mythic, its just a thought exercise.

[Magnosh]

It's a MMO not a single player game, I have no idea how load times has any bearing on raid difficulty in a game where raiding itself is predicated on playing with other people. As for endgame raiding losing "half" of its playerbase... for the reasons I've mentioned in other posts, I believe the people who left were never actually raiders to begin with. I realize this is a No True Scotsman argument but it's my personal opinion if raiding meant as much as people like to say it did, I feel they would have done whatever it took to continue raiding.

The question is what is raiding, for me Raiding is progressing as much as possible with the players you enjoy playing with, seeing the evolution on those players and surpassing the difficulties. I guess this was the original spirit of Raiding in WoW. It might have changed now and probably only World Race maters but I then again those are also the players who get payed to play which most on this topic aren't.

But even Paragon which was one of the World's best stopped and said that 20 man was part of the problem and if they had 10 man they would have stayed raiding. Its ironic how a system made for the top pros (that minority it should cater according to most supporters of 20 man mythic) ended up removing one of the best guilds in the world that has done more for this game than 99% of the players commenting on this topic (me included ofc).

[Neevs]

What, no I have no problems clearing mythic with my current guild (been in the same guild for a long time). I was just saying that I had more fun raiding with a smaller team. Raiding HC is not an option, wheres the fun in that?

I was not asking for easier raids, just smaller groups.



Adding extra difficulties would not help though, would it? What would be the point?

Anyhow, the 10 man HC worked well in Cata and MoP, I don't see why mythic would not work as flex. Raids were not easier back then. I'm sure some bosses were easy on 10 and some on 20 but so what? Some bosses are really easy on mythic while other are super hard, the number of people will not change that.

As I said, it would really help with the issue of people leaving becase they have to sit on a few raids.

Haven't been my experience that Mythic is the problem as I said. My experience have been the lack of content and garrisons is what really caused problems. But it's possible. And as I said I don't see the added raid being a good solution either..

But as I said I don't believe flex is the solution for mythic as I wrote. And saying 10 and 25 worked doesn't mean flex would work imo, it's still 2 fixed sizes that needs to be balanced, not close to as many as flex

From going from 10 and 25 heroic in Mist to Mythic in WoD I've at least had a better experience looking solely on my personal raiding experience mythic have been better. Socially? Hm, I'd say that depends more on the people you raid with than the raid size

But as I said just been my experience, and others have had a different experience

[Kuntantee]

20 man mythic teams killed the chance of causal guilds mythic progression. As always, this move has nothing to do with making game better, but making game easy for them to develop. It may not be a failure, but it is a shit decision from my perspective.

[Jtbrig7390]

People could also choose to play a singleplayer game if they prefer to deal with as less people as possible.

You do know telling people to leave because they don't play the way you like is bad for the game right?

[Glorious Leader]

20 man mythic teams killed the chance of causal guilds mythic progression. As always, this move has nothing to do with making game better, but making game easy for them to develop. It may not be a failure, but it is a shit decision from my perspective.

They've been doing this for awhile now at least since Cataclysm. The developers make changes that at the very least prove to be divisive or unpopular with the playerbase and they do largely as a means of trying to make development life easier., either cheaper or quicker or in some way more beneficial for them as developers at the expense of players. They manage to get SOME of the community on board so it starts wow civil war.

[Deleted]

Your point is as bad as your grammar. They don't want to deal with as few(!) people as possible, just less than 20.

As I'm not a native English speaker, I'm perfectly fine with not having optimal English grammar.

To get back to your point, so 19 man Mythic is fine. Less than 20...

[Jtbrig7390]

They've been doing this for awhile now at least since Cataclysm. The developers make changes that at the very least prove to be divisive or unpopular with the playerbase and they do largely as a means of trying to make development life easier., either cheaper or quicker or in some way more beneficial for them as developers at the expense of players. They manage to get SOME of the community on board so it starts wow civil war.

The problem is (and I hope legion changes this) the developers are making a game they want to play.

If they want to keep doing that fine go right ahead, In the end WoW belongs to blizzard. Just don't be surprised when you barely have a playerbase left. Whoever thought Mythic 20man Only was a good idea needs to be slapped.

[Magnosh]

The problem is (and I hope legion changes this) the developers are making a game they want to play.

If they want to keep doing that fine go right ahead, In the end WoW belongs to blizzard. Just don't be surprised when you barely have a playerbase left. Whoever thought Mythic 20man Only was a good idea needs to be slapped.

No wonders why they stop sharing the numbers now. eheheheh

[Kaykay]

See, this is smells of bullshit. If you were good enough, to routinely clear heroic raids in MoP and Cataclysm on a casual schedule before the next raid tier hit, I don't buy that you had such trouble recruiting players. Why? Because I have been leading a 2-day a week raid with good progression and know that niche is actually pretty easy to recruit for (comparably).

But then again, you guys seemed to have started recruitment for mythic only after you were done with the heroic version. Why did you not expand your roster at the end of MoP / start of WoD? Thats what we did (went from 25-man in WotLK to 3x 10 man in Cata to 1x 10 man in MoP to 20 man in WoD) and it wasn't that hard, because we had a history of getting shit done for years - as you claim you had.

But hey, if you know 20-man mythic is coming a year in advance, it sure is Blizzards fault if you start recruiting more players after waiting out that year. You guys simply were too late to the party. Your fault, I am sorry to say.

We were a tight knit group of friends that had been playing together for over 5 years, and recruiting was rough argueably because we didnt recruit the year before wod. There's many good reasons why we didn't spend a year trying to recruit. (like most guilds activity falls towards the end of an expansion and majority being foreign nationality speaking danish during raid not too keen on having to go international.)

there was something special about everyone being equally responsible for the raids success, both in form of coop raid leading and in increased pressure put on individual players, in mythic guilds majority of the pressure is put on gm/officers, and select key roles like healer/maintank/raidleader(cd rotation caller).
And there isn't enough space / time during a raid for everyone to banter while still keeping on track with progression.

10 man was the perfect fit,

[Unholyground]

I actually really like this change.

[Neevs]

The problem is (and I hope legion changes this) the developers are making a game they want to play.

If they want to keep doing that fine go right ahead, In the end WoW belongs to blizzard. Just don't be surprised when you barely have a playerbase left. Whoever thought Mythic 20man Only was a good idea needs to be slapped.

Very few changes to the game are only a good idea

[lightofdawn]

it worked as having a single highest caliber to judge the best raiders by.

it only failed in the fact that having four separate difficulties seems a bit redundant to me.

[Jtbrig7390]

Very few changes to the game are only a good idea

That is quite true. Lots of changes they do have both positive and negative effects. But this is one of the changes they have done where there is way more negative then positive.

[Deleted]

You do know telling people to leave because they don't play the way you like is bad for the game right?

Turn it around. 10 man Mythic means saying F&*^to everybody who likes playing in larger groups and/or communities.