20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Riistov]

Someone could say the same about Vanilla raiding ...

or BC for that matter.

[Dukenukem]

You're contradicting your own argument by stating that fails at 25m weren't punished as hard as on 10m. Can't really follow your reasoning here.

On your second point: So the fact that it takes longer to set up a bigger group makes it somehow more worth striving for? What's so great about time spent on logistics like that without even playing the actual game? Boggles my mind.

I was refering to the favourite 10man argument "1 fail is wipe" while that is not super true for 25. still 2,5x more people will make more mistakes than 10.
25 is more epic and more prestigeous, only 10 man group worth refering is paragon, which started as 25.

[Daffan]

From my semi-casual but enjoy to raid difficult stuff viewpoint; I disliked it. Would prefer an option for smaller.

As a grown adult who understands he can't get everything he wants and from a raid encounter perspective it seemed like it worked.

Look everyone, we've spotted an alien!

[Cebel]

Not sure if you didn't understood what I said or if its my english that is worst than I thought....

Back then I didn't move for a guild, I moved from Burning Blade because it was getting filled with some foreign players (think the trade chat became Polish, but I'm honestly not sure it was Polish), so I moved to Grim Batol which had an healthy population, things changed, you can't predict from Cataclysm to WoD that most of a server population would crumble.

I'm opposed to wasting more money on this game after what we already pay both monthly and for expansion. And plus its not just moving 1 char, it would be moving at least 3 different ones which I play actively.

Because you did it doesn't mean everyone will nor that it is common practice, unless your guild is on the top 200 World or something. Server matters.

So move for a guild. Lets be honest, the community in this game is dead. There is no more community. Your community is the players you play with on a daily basis, aka your guildies.

What difference does the language of trade chat make if you still dont talk to anyone anyways?

[GiefEpixe]

I was refering to the favourite 10man argument "1 fail is wipe" while that is not super true for 25. still 2,5x more people will make more mistakes than 10.
25 is more epic and more prestigeous, only 10 man group worth refering is paragon, which started as 25.

Unless you're arguing that 25m was harder when it comes to mechanics, I think we can pretty much agree that 25/10 wasn't balanced. Some encounters were easier for the former, some for the latter. But why does that matter at all? To me, those two size options were always separate races, with separate world-firsts, and players could choose. 90% opting for 10m is quite a clear statement to me.

Apart from that, now why exactly is 25m more epic and in particular more prestigious? Because it requires more logistics?

[Riistov]

That happened to many guild and many players i know quit because they simply couldnt raid....

I can buy into a lot of arguments against 20m Mythic, this just isn't one of them.

If you have the desire to raid, there are a ton of guilds out there for you.

[Dukenukem]

Unless you're arguing that 25m was harder when it comes to mechanics, I think we can pretty much agree that 25/10 wasn't balanced. Some encounters were easier for the former, some for the latter. But why does that matter at all? To me, those two size options were always separate races, with separate world-firsts, and players could choose. 90% opting for 10m is quite a clear statement to me.

Apart from that, now why exactly is 25m more epic and in particular more prestigious? Because it requires more logistics?

To put it simply, yes, more logistic should reward more prestige and fact that all time, when there was 10/25 option, "The race" was always on 25.

90% opting for 10 man is just the "path of least resistence" option, not "we all love 10 man sooooo much". I saw many 25 guilds disband in Cata just for ditching the 15 "bad players" and forming "leet team"

[Magnosh]

So move for a guild. Lets be honest, the community in this game is dead. There is no more community. Your community is the players you play with on a daily basis, aka your guildies.

What difference does the language of trade chat make if you still dont talk to anyone anyways?

Well, try to look for a guild to join and all announces being on a language you simply can't understand, specially during a time were cross realm is not a thing.

[GiefEpixe]

To put it simply, yes, more logistic should reward more prestige

I can't agree with that. I don't see why an activity outside of the actual game should yield more prestige. It's just an artificial hindrance that keeps players from playing the game the way they want to and doesn't say anything about their skill.

I saw many 25 guilds disband in Cata just for ditching the 15 "bad players" and forming "leet team"

Don't see what's wrong with trying to set up a team of players on a more similar skill level than before. Gap in skill is one of the main trouble sources for raid groups. It's understandable that people would like to avoid that.

[Murderdoll]

For me its a success and a failure.

If youre looking at it from a purely balance and challenge point of view. Its a raging success. Fights were tuned well and it was a good challenge throughout WoD.

However, it was a failure from a player retention and community point of view.

Lets forget that thousands of guilds were destroyed. They were killed because of a plethora of reasons. Theres another issue with this. Mythic raiders know when someone isnt cut out for the content. These people are Heroic raiders who get dragged along. What has been happening all expansion is as the Mythic population dropped, weve aimed to replace. Weve been forced into poaching from Heroic guilds.

This has a two pronged effect. The heroic guild they came from suffer, friends quit etc. That poached player gets into lets say Gorefiend progression and fails miserably. He is chewed out. He gets daunted by the content and leaves. A lot of guilds right now are rollerskating these types of players because they simply make up the numbers. I cant put a finger on how many people we have had poached (a Mythic guild ourselves) and then quit 2 weeks later because they failed their trial because the leadership wasnt there in that guild to help them along.

This model of raiding has had a drastic effect on the heroic level raiders its been dragging them prematurely into content chewing them up and they end up just quitting.

The "just find a new guild" mentallity in this thread is also pretty retarded. Guild hopping over and over, hoping that the next guild stays afloat for another month is not a fix for this issue.

This model cannot continue whilst population is how it is and servers need to be merged pretty quickly.

[I Push Buttons]

Well, to be fair comparing HM and BRF to SoO ain't a good raid to measure against (IMO).
First off, both of those were out for far less time than SoO (by this i mean they were relevant for far less time, when new raids come out people stop doing the previous). Especially HM was out for far less time.

SoO also wasn't only out for far longer time, it also got nerfed insanely close to the end of MoP where people could pretty much pug them. This might happen to HFC as well, we'll see in time.
secondly HM and BRF had more sub numbers than MoP at the time around SoO, so depending on how many of those raided, and if they were "mythic" raiders, it's hard to tell how it affect numbers.

Quite a few I know at least came back just to see WoD, not really set on raiding. They wanted to check out if they liked the changes and if they still found the game fun.
So without knowing again overall how many did that, we'll have trouble analyzing and comparing it.

The stats (MMO Champion Armory Stats) I am referring to were posted at these times:

- SoO Armory Stats - Beginning of December 2013 (about two or three months after the September 10 release date).

- HM/BRF Armory Stats - Like the last day of March 2015 (about two months after the release of BRF at the beginning of February and five months after the release of HM).

Those stats did not look at SoO clearance 14 months into the tier like you seem to be insinuating... It was relatively the same for BRF (a few more weeks for SoO) and HM was out nearly twice as long for the same stats.

[Alexeht]

I was not asking for easier raids, just smaller groups.

You can always run HC undeargeared (skip normal). "One Race" is really good indicator which guild defeated boss first on same terms (-drop RNG).

[chooi]

I disagree with this pile of horse shit you just spewed.

Casual guilds have always had the opportunity to run mythic. My guild for example only raids 2 days a week 3 hours a night, and we are on Mythic Archimonde right now. So dont give me that BS about this change killed casual guilds because it didn't, if anything casual guilds killed themselves because of their pride / entitlement issues. "Oh i can't raid the hardest difficulty on 10 man, im not even going to try to recruit a few more to get to 20". "oh everything should be made easy for me in terms of logistics and mechanics, it should all be handed to me on a silver platter"

20 man mythic in my opinion has been the best compromise between the 10-25 man debate, and it solves a lot of problems with mechanics changing / scaling from lesser difficulties to the hardest difficulty. Blizzard accomplished their goal.

^
This. So much this.
(I'm agreeing with Jaylock. It's happening!)


I hear nothing but excuses for not being able to raid Mythic.

The thing is: if you want to raid Mythic you can raid Mythic. Period.

You may have to recruit more people, merge with another guild, find a new guild or even server transfer but don't tell others that you can't raid Mythic when others clearly can. Even on a casual level of 1-2 days for 3-4 hours per raid night.

Because what people forget: Mythic is not supposed to be cleared by a lot of players.

Thus the 'participation' argument is invalid. Mythic is designed for a small minority of people that actually want to put in the time and dedication to do the hardest PvE content in the game which Blizzard decided to be for 20 people only. If you don't have the mindset for that type of content you're just at the wrong place. Sorry for you.

If you're not able or willing to adapt it's your problem - and yours only. Stop the excuses. Adapt or get over it.

[Youn]

I don't care for it. What has happened is we started with 35 people. Over time, we dropped to 30 players because of flex heroic. Then when mythic started up we dropped down to 22-23 players. At that point, if people aren't 100% you don't raid.

[CapybaraSlayer]

My guild could never fill the 20 - 23 man roster so we stayed raiding heroic.

[Aggrophobic]

You can always run HC undeargeared (skip normal). "One Race" is really good indicator which guild defeated boss first on same terms (-drop RNG).

Why would I do that?

[Cebel]

Well, try to look for a guild to join and all announces being on a language you simply can't understand, specially during a time were cross realm is not a thing.

Thats why we have these things called forums. Go to wowprogress, look for guilds that interest you that speak your language. etc.

You have no one to blame but yourself for wasting money.

[mopkins]

Serious question...do people raiding mythic right now really consider HFC raiding FAR AND AWAY better than throne of thunder? I thought both raids were very well done.

10 man ToT and had some initial issues with tuning dark animus that was fairly quickly resolved. That's about it

So what did having 10 man mythic really hurt?

[Fyersing]

Serious question...do people raiding mythic right now really consider HFC raiding FAR AND AWAY better than throne of thunder? I thought both raids were very well done.

10 man ToT and had some initial issues with tuning dark animus that was fairly quickly resolved. That's about it

So what did having 10 man mythic really hurt?

I think people are witnessing Blizzard continually produce better and better raids and, unsurprisingly, coming to the conclusion that because the raids in WoD were largely an improvement over the raids in MoP that this is somehow directly related to the raid size.

The reality is HM, BRF and HFC would've been amazing raids no matter what size they'd gone with because, well, they're simply getting better and better at designing raids. As someone who hasn't done HFC (M), even I can see that HFC is miles and miles beyond some of the timeless classics like BT or ICC (mechanically speaking, of course, nobody is as sicknasty as the Lich King).

[Erolian]

I think people are witnessing Blizzard continually produce better and better raids and, unsurprisingly, coming to the conclusion that because the raids in WoD were largely an improvement over the raids in MoP that this is somehow directly related to the raid size.

The reality is HM, BRF and HFC would've been amazing raids no matter what size they'd gone with because, well, they're simply getting better and better at designing raids. As someone who hasn't done HFC (M), even I can see that HFC is miles and miles beyond some of the timeless classics like BT or ICC (mechanically speaking, of course, nobody is as sicknasty as the Lich King).

I don't think there was necessarily any substantial raid improvement in WoD over MoP. Felt like more of the same to me.