[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[Elim Garak]

If you watched Doctor Who you would know that Arya Stark is immortal

[Jotaux]

They should have just skipped the waif stabbing her at all imo. Then had Arya realize the old woman was the waif and then cut to the chase scene.

[Tempguy]

I can't get over just what a steep dive this show has taken in about every aspect. Especially the Arya stuff keeps bugging me. Season 1: Eddard Stark is stabbed through the leg with a spear, next episode shows him recovering and the remainder of the season has him walking with a cane. Khal Drogo is wounded by a sword, the wound becomes infected due to improper dressing, and he almost dies because of it.

Season 4: Sandor Clegane is bitten by a crazy man. Sandor spends the rest of the season progressively getting weaker because of his refusal to sterilize the wound with fire, eventually leading to him underperforming in a fight against Brienne and losing.

Season 5: Barriston Selmy is stabbed once. Dies. Jon Snow is stabbed multiple times. Dies.



Season 6: Arya Stark is stabbed multiple times in the gut, and dives in a riverway full of possible stagnant/dirty water. Survives long enough to be found by a random actress, who just stitches and bandages the wound up and gives her some opiates to sleep better (unless the Waif somehow managed to miss all of Arya's vital organs while stabbing her in the gut, in which case she's basically the worst assassin ever), and has recovered enough by the next day to perform parkour without doubling over in excruciating pain and ripping her stitches open.

It's like they've dropped all pretense. I just wish they'd have cut Arya's storyline and it was the one I was most interested in.

I died...didn't even have to get stabbed. lol..


And yes, the writers (or whoever is responsible for plots and lines) are seriously lacking this season.

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And I hate Dany. Which is sad cause she was once my go too example for badass female protagonist. I fele like her story started great, built up to her being "Mother of Dragons and Breaker of chains" Then it went to shit.

I saw her survive fire already
I saw her get an army already (and last time was better)
I saw her dragons


Why are we repeating all this? How can IO get hyoed she has an army when she accomplished basically fuck all with her last one? It's been many seasons, If she doesn't end up in Westeros by the end of this one then she needs to go off and marry her merc BF cause she is pointless to the plot.

You could literally have started her story this very season, and have it end with teh Unsullied next season, then bring her ass to Westeros. Everything else is a waste of time.

They should have just skipped the waif stabbing her at all imo. Then had Arya realize the old woman was the waif and then cut to the chase scene.

That would be good writing...

[Sooba]

Doubt they will introduce anymore 'major' characters at this point, combined with the rumors of GoT scaling back episodes per season for the final 2.
Its already full, getting even more in just pushes the limit.

Show, possibly. Martin has said that we'll be meeting HR eventually in the books.

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Really? She believes he's the Prince That Was Promised, but other than that, I don't think she knows exactly who really are Jon's parents.

To be clear, she thinks he's AA. She's less familiar with TPTWP prophecies as those are Westerosi in origin.

The reason why this distinction matters is because if she actually did know he was TPTWP, she would therefore know that he must be of Rhaella and Aerys' line (due to prophecy), making him Targaryen. Ergo, she doesn't actually know that part.

Which upon reflection I guess is one thing they just cut entirely from the show; the difference between the AA and PTWP prophecies. Because as I recall she actually does use "TPTWP" in the show, which would give the game away to her entirely.

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Who? The only ones I see are Varys and Littlefinger. Neither have any interest at seeing a royal blacksmith crowned king.



Yeah, right... Then there won't be any King to legitimize him anyway. And whoever sits on the throne afterwards will have no reason to legitimize Gendry. In fact, he would probably try to kill him just to be on the safe side...

Yeah, Gendry isn't likely going anywhere any time soon. The best he could hope for would be to hide until the throne is secure under someone else, and then ask for some level of clemency / legitimization on the promise of not starting anything. The best he could hope for... I don't even know if he'd want nobility if it was offered to him anyway. And it could go much, much worse.

The Starks have been Kings in the North for thousands of years before Aegon's Conquest. And he did not claim himself King. The lords of the North proclaimed him King in the North. So he was truly King, even if his reign has been short.

And while this might mean Jon would be viewed as legitimate, it doesn't help him one iota toward Kingship of the realm as he'd be seen as a legitimate Stark. (Not Targaryen.)

Yes, but no one knows that in Westeros except Ned (who's kinda dead) and Howland Reed (who is still to be seen). So unless Howland Reed comes out of his bayou to tell everyone that Jon is really Aegon Targaryen's son through Lyanna Stark, everybody will believe that Jon is Ned's son. With an unknown mother.

In fact, I would like to see Howland Reed outside of one of Bran's vision...

Me too. I do, however, get the sensation that Reed would be convincing were he to actually speak up about Jon. He strikes me as the kind to make sure if he actually does something, that it would work. I just don't know that he would bother.

On the other hand, if Jon emerges as some sort of PTWP or dragonrider, folks might make the connection themselves. Which makes me wonder just who or what is going to happen to Rhaegal. The other two dragons are so obvious based on heraldry and foreshadowing. Rhaegal isn't at all.

[Deleted]

I dare anyone who thinks Emilia Clarke is a good actress to watch the recent Terminator film and tell me she can act.

I've seen more range in broccoli.

[Damajin]

I dare anyone who thinks Emilia Clarke is a good actress to watch the recent Terminator film and tell me she can act.

I've seen more range in broccoli.

Hahaha yeah, she's pretty bad. Makes me wonder what was so terrible about Tamzin Merchant's portrayal of Dany that she was removed and the part was recast and E.C. got it.

[Khadgar]

Season 6: Arya Stark is stabbed multiple times in the gut, and dives in a riverway full of possible stagnant/dirty water. Survives long enough to be found by a random actress, who just stitches and bandages the wound up and gives her some opiates to sleep better (unless the Waif somehow managed to miss all of Arya's vital organs while stabbing her in the gut, in which case she's basically the worst assassin ever), and has recovered enough by the next day to perform parkour without doubling over in excruciating pain and ripping her stitches open.

she could've easily stabbed her the heart or another vital organ but the whole point was she wanted Arya to have a slow painful death even after Jaqen told her not to make Arya suffer.

plus it seems totally plausible Arya still benefited from the pain reduction quality's of drinking milk of the poppy the next day, she's had a zero tolerance to to opiates before this, the shot she drank literally put her to sleep in about 10 seconds.

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They should have just skipped the waif stabbing her at all imo. Then had Arya realize the old woman was the waif and then cut to the chase scene.

meh, that would've taken away the whole significance of by sparing the actress's life who then in turn ended up saving hers, and despite being heavily wounded the Waif was still no match for her in the dark. plus i can't think of a good reason that would've made Arya see through the Waif's shape shifted form.

[eschatological]

The actress is pointless to the story, and ultimately sparing her life meant nothing, since she died anyways. Arya gave her like an extra week. She wouldn't have been wounded by the waif if she had just killed her like she was told to do.

The reason she could see through the waif's disguise is because Arya has looked right at that old woman's face in the FM's wall-o-faces, and because she should be suspicious as fuck of anyone who approaches her, seeing as she's on the run from a band of renowned assassins.

[Tommy T]

I know everyone is complaining about Ayra's story line, but I thought Riverrun was just as bad.

"While I'm still alive, the war isn't over".

5 minutes later.

"BRB gonna go die a 'heroic' death instead of taking back my sisters home".

[Damajin]

Because the conversation is on the Arya/Waif stuff, here's a article with the director giving the pretty lame reasonings behind how the whole thing went down, from initial knifing to Waif death offscreen:

http://winteriscoming.net/2016/06/14...ied-offscreen/

Director Mark Mylod on why the Waif and the Blackfish died offscreen

As we pick through the fallout on “No One,” this past Sunday’s new episode of Game of Thrones, Mark Mylod is a valuable resource. The director has been making the interview rounds since Sunday, and talked to Tech Insider and The Wall Street Journal’s Speakeasy blog about one aspect of the episode that didn’t sit well with some fans: the fact that two characters, the Waif and Brynden “the Blackfish” Tully, died offscreen.

Let’s start with the Waif, beginning with the scene in “The Broken Man” where she gets the jump on Arya and stabs her in the gut. “We forget how young this kid is, and she makes a mistake,” Mylod said of Arya.

Having booked passage with the captain, she has a moment of reverie where she’s looking over Braavos and particularly looking forward to making a move toward home to a new adventure. She’s not going to be this assassin, and she lets her guard down and nearly pays for it with her life.

After that, Mylod confirms that the point of Arya leading the Waif back to her hiding place was so that she could have the advantage in a fight, as Arya knew how to fight blind (or, as apparent Star Wars nerd Mylod puts it, “metaphorically using the ‘Force'”) and the Waif didn’t. “There’s a reason why she’s chosen that particular place to be,” Mylod said, “with only one door and no window and the single candle being the only light source.”

And therefore, of course without night vision goggles [the scene was] actually quite impossible to see. And personally I love the edit cut of the candle snuffed out to the Hall of Faces and that slow reveal of whose face is actually up on the wall. So in that case it was part necessity [not to show her death] but more cleverly just great storytelling and great planning from the writers.

So Mylod seems to be saying that we didn’t see the Waif die onscreen for two reasons: 1) it would have been impossible to see anyway, and; 2) the setup was such that we knew what was going to happen, and the follow-up shot in the Hall of Faces confirmed it.

Personally, I agree with this—I thought the cut to black was all that was needed, but I was a little less happy with the Blackfish’s offscreen death. What reasons did Mylod have for killing Brynden Tully offscreen?

“In the case of the Blackfish, it was really a storytelling call,” he said. “What do we gain from [showing his death]? The most important tonal story would be – at least for me and I can probably speak for the writers here – to show the passing of this great old school warrior with a real warrior’s death, a kind of samurai death.”

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He’s a man who carries a lot of shame for not being in the right place at the right time at the Red Wedding. He’s carried that shame and here was a chance for at least a bit of personal redemption to give himself that moment of dignity. I didn’t want to see the moment of the sword going into him or whatever it may be. I didn’t want to see that, I didn’t gain anything from it. I wanted him to have that warrior’s death and I was happy to leave that offscreen. So it was really just a question of choice. I expect that one could make an equally compelling argument either way. That was the writer’s choice and I fully agreed with it.

Fair enough, although I still think that at least seeing the Blackfish swing his sword a few times before the Lannister soldier informs Jaime of his death would have been cathartic.

Over at Speakeasy, Mylod also talked about filming that chase scene between Arya and the Waif, which he called “a director’s dream.”

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The script says “a dazzling foot chase,” and so I went with the team to Girona in Spain, and we basically walked around the Old City saying, “That’s a good bit. That’s a good bit. And that’s a good bit. How can we stitch them together?” Through just walking the streets a shape started to evolve.

I note that Mylod doesn’t comment on what’s proven to be the most controversial element of the sequence—Arya’s ability to jump around the city with a barely healed gut wound—but that may be something we just have to deal with.

Finally, Mylod complimented the hell out of Rory McCann in the role of the Hound. “In terms of getting back into the character, probably the best direction I gave to Rory over the [two] episodes was, “Hey, Rory, remember you’ve got a limp!” And that was about it. The guy knows the character so damn well.” McCann certainly was in fine form over the past couple of episodes—it was like the Hound never left.

[Gallahadd]

Tbh the Hound was awesome. The rest of the episode was fifty shades of myeh.

[Graeham]

It's kind of ridiculous that they're killing off so many characters off screen. It's not satisfying at all - Stannis, in particular, deserved a more dignified end. Then again it's pretty obvious that a lot of this season's budget is going into the final two episodes - that's where all the fancy CGI and fighting scenes will be, I suspect. Unfortunately it means the rest of the season suffers from awkward pacing and resolutions to plot points that aren't interesting.

[Jotaux]

How expensive can it be to show someone die?

[Frontenac]

To be clear, she thinks he's AA. She's less familiar with TPTWP prophecies as those are Westerosi in origin.

The reason why this distinction matters is because if she actually did know he was TPTWP, she would therefore know that he must be of Rhaella and Aerys' line (due to prophecy), making him Targaryen. Ergo, she doesn't actually know that part.

Which upon reflection I guess is one thing they just cut entirely from the show; the difference between the AA and PTWP prophecies. Because as I recall she actually does use "TPTWP" in the show, which would give the game away to her entirely.

In fact, I think both Melisandre and Kinvara use the term "the one that was promised." I would say like you that they blurred the difference between the AA and the PTWP.

And while this might mean Jon would be viewed as legitimate, it doesn't help him one iota toward Kingship of the realm as he'd be seen as a legitimate Stark. (Not Targaryen.)

Yeah. He could be King in the North though. That is, if Bran never comes back. Rickon is doomed...

Me too. I do, however, get the sensation that Reed would be convincing were he to actually speak up about Jon. He strikes me as the kind to make sure if he actually does something, that it would work. I just don't know that he would bother.

On the other hand, if Jon emerges as some sort of PTWP or dragonrider, folks might make the connection themselves. Which makes me wonder just who or what is going to happen to Rhaegal. The other two dragons are so obvious based on heraldry and foreshadowing. Rhaegal isn't at all.

What do you mean about heraldry and foreshadowing? I'm interested.

[Absintheminded]

The term "prince that was promised" has been used on the show.

[Sooba]

The term "prince that was promised" has been used on the show.

I said that.

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What do you mean about heraldry and foreshadowing? I'm interested.

It was covered in my massive post on Tyrion. Viserion is very clearly his dragon. I'll dig up that specific portion:

2) Viserion and the White Lion

“When Dany passed his eyes came open, two pools of molten gold. His horns were gold as well, as were the scales that ran down his long serpentine neck, back, and great tail.” – As seen by Dany, AFFC

“Viserion launched himself from the ceiling, pale leather wings unfolding, spreading wide. The broken chain dangling from his neck swung wildly. His flame lit the pit, pale gold shot through with red and orange...The dragon came down between the Dornishmen and the door with a roar that would have sent a hundred lions running...the quarrel caromed off Viserion’s neck to vanish in the gloom. A line of fire gleamed in its wake—dragon’s blood, glowing gold and red.” – As seen by Quentyn, ADWD

“A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.” – Vision in the House of the Undying

One of the mysteries of the series is precisely what the dragons represent, and who will ride them, if anyone at all. In the case of Dany it is eminently clear. She will ride Drogon as she already has, the largest of the dragons and the one she has already bonded to. He also represents her heraldry. Black and red, and with flame of black and red.

Viserion's imagery is actually even more clear than Dany's. He is a white/pale dragon with golden accents. His eyes are “molten gold”, his flame “pale gold with red and orange” and his blood “glowing gold and red”. You couldn't have a clearer connection to Lannister heraldry and description if you tried. But it gets better. The lion comparison is made explicitly in his roar.

This roar also has a curious quality. It isn't just necessarily lion-like. Rather it would've “sent a hundred lions running.” This calls to mind another scene in the books. At one point Viserion reacts to the white lion hakkhar (cloak/pelt) that Dany is wearing (a gift from the late Drogo). He sinks his claws into it for seemingly no reason. Almost as if he either dislikes it or is possessive of it. What's clear isn't just that Viserion is related to Lannister lion heraldry. He also has a fraught relationship with it. Just like Tyrion.

Furthermore, Tyrion is the pale Lion. He is not a golden-haired Lannister. He is the pale-haired bastard of a dragon and a lion. Likewise Viserion is the pale dragon with lion heraldry. This connection finally partially explains one of Dany's most cryptic visions in the house of the undying. All of her visions have occurred within the last generation or are prophetic. What then are we to make of a pale lion being dwarfed by some grass? This could be made all the more explicit (and beautiful) if Tyrion wears her hakkhar while in the Dothraki Sea, but it's unecessary. He's already a “pale lion” lion-killing dwarf who is the only clear fit for a “pale lion” lion-hating dragon on his way to meet Dany near Essos' most prominent grasslands.

Again though, I don't find this as puzzling as I feel I have answered it with a fair amount of confidence. The question I have is, to whom does Rhaegal belong?

[Absintheminded]

Ah I missed the part

[Therougetitan]

Again though, I don't find this as puzzling as I feel I have answered it with a fair amount of confidence. The question I have is, to whom does Rhaegal belong?

Jon. Three dragons for three Targaryens fits well. Plus Rhaegal is named after Jon's supposed real father.

[Lumineus]

Perhaps not coincidentally, Stark heraldry often features green, which is the color of Rhaegal's scales. Their clothing also tends to favor this color in the TV series.

[Deleted]

Because the conversation is on the Arya/Waif stuff, here's a article with the director giving the pretty lame reasonings behind how the whole thing went down, from initial knifing to Waif death offscreen:

http://winteriscoming.net/2016/06/14...ied-offscreen/

He might as well have just said it would have been gratuitous, oh wait where have we heard that before .....