Queue: "If I can't click 1 button, I won't participate"

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

This is true for most people i believe.
Difference being in Classic i simply didn't do dungeons if i was lazy and didn't feel like putting in effort and instead focus on different things the game had to offer. Now it's indeed different ... The problem now is that dungeons feel so boring and feel so anti-social that it actually kills my motivation to do them before i even start .....

I did 2 heroic dungeons this weekend simply because i felt like it and ended up doing both runs in 45min or so .... i would kill to get a real dungeon feeling again.

My guild has a mythic dungeon night once a week. Not much different than heroic if it's the regulars, but some weeks I'm carrying guildies who haven't done them and that can be challenging all over again, especially if I'm tanking on an alt instead of my main. Not challenging like banging head on wall, but challenging as in my health bar dips, have to use CDs, and occasionally have to rez people after fights.

- - - Updated - - -

The other thing with heroics is that daily timer. Makes me feel like there's 100 ring valor I'll lose if I don't take 5-10 minutes per alt and knock them out each day. If not for that, I'd be as likely to run heroics as I am to do Dalaran cooking dailies.

[gcsmith]

Queued content makes group arrangement undoubtedly faster, especially during off-peak hours, and basically nullifies the pug 'aotc required' shitlord mentality that (I assume) still permeates the game.

The only surprise is that players don't want auto-group making to be made available for normal + raid content.

Because then normal+ would be neared to lfr level

[Girrag]

People who have this mentality, please help me understand why you feel this way?

Because I can and it's easier. If game allows me to queue everywhere - why bother with anything else?

Why does the game have to revolve around your wants and desires of it being a complete queue fest?

Because money. If developers removed queue things then I would use "normal" ways to go there. But they wont because lots of people will quit.

[Chrno]

My guild has a mythic dungeon night once a week. Not much different than heroic if it's the regulars, but some weeks I'm carrying guildies who haven't done them and that can be challenging all over again, especially if I'm tanking on an alt instead of my main. Not challenging like banging head on wall, but challenging as in my health bar dips, have to use CDs, and occasionally have to rez people after fights.

Yes mythics are ok in term of hard hitting mobs but they play exactly like the normal/heroic counterparts.

In the past dungeons more or less force more group play elements on groups:
- The need of assignments is simply not here anymore. No more CC, no more interupts are needed causes noone to talk to anyone anymore.
- Trash/boss skipping isn't a thing anymore. These things were often talked about in the past. The only time i see people talking / asking about stuff is if we can do the spider boss which i believe is actually a good thing.
- There is only 1 dungeon path. Choice can be nice to change things up.
- Group position when clearing trash of bosses is not really a thing anymore and it's mostly just personal deaths if you stand on the wrong spot.
- Trash is what made the dungeons in the past interesting, not the bosses. This is the biggest change.
- The time it takes to clear a dungeons has been reduced to under 30min ... I personally enjoyed dungeon that took 2 hours + to clear. You'd plan to do them in the weekend or when you had a night off. Doing a dungeon every day for 2 weeks after launch burns me out quickly and these fast clear feels like a Mc donalds mael ... unstatisfyd...

Challange modes actually really forces communication, the problem is however that it all revolves arround speed ..... and communication when clearing stuff as quick as you can isn't that easy ........ so the only thing that forces people to talk these days actually kill communication as well :P
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[Marrilaife]

Going around inspecting people is one thing; offering unsolicited "advice" to strangers based on that is just plain rude.

You might think everyone wants your "helpful" un-asked for advice but in reality pretty much no one does. No matter who you are and what your advice is.

That's why no one talks in this game and no one offers help or advice. That happened years ago by now I realized most of the crowd is "I play how I wanna you don't pay my 15$ to tell me how to play" kind. There's simply no point trying to help anyone improve because 99% of the time it's "hurr durr how dare you, mind your own business". So I do. As do mostly everyone else.

We grew to accept the thought most randoms won't improve and it's not worth trying. Content designed for "randoms" needs to be tuned having that in mind. You run a dungeon where a mage only spams ice lance and healer only ever uses flash heal and is oom most of the time, when he is he doesn't drink just passively waits while not healing. But no, you can't tell them anything - they will not change their playstyle and also take a grave offense about "unasked unsolicited advice". That's why we can't have random matchmaking for raiding.

That's why ghostcrawler said only minority of playerbase strives to rise to the challenge. And that's why "all inclusive" content ends at Kazzak, LFR and heroic dungeons. Challenging gameplay is most often restricted to guilds, groups of friends and pre-arranged teams.

People sit and complain about inflated ilvl requirements in pugs but that's a by product of a culture where there's zero incentive both from game and from the players to try to be helpful towards others and there's zero punishment for being anti-social either (for example Blizzard vague stance about "loot rules" which makes ninja looters in 99% of the cases go unpunished).

Advocates of queue say "I don't wanna be judged, I don't wanna jump through anyone hoops", but paradoxically that creates an issue where everyone is pre-judged, the content is lowered to the lowest common denominator, and anything above that is left out - see mythic and mythic+ in legion.

Then people who don't want to step out of their comfort zones and join guilds or lead groups are left at the mercy of the worst - people who lead groups not because they stepped up for the job, but because they only think what they can gain from you. Therefore all the pugs "LFM x must have 20 ilvls above me, all loot I want is reserved". Players who join their groups are viewed not as other people, but as pawns to play them. Since there's generally a "hands off" policy, read: "his group his rules" there's little incentive to make fair groups and little downside to make shameless "boost me" groups.

Pugging is indeed "darwinism" as someone pointed out in this thread but it's easy to say "it needs to end" or "it's killing the community" without actually suggesting how would it happen that the community would suddenly hold each other's hands instead of everyone playing their own game within a game.

People can complain that there's a division between "haves" and "have nots" and those that "have" only end up "having more" while poor become poorer and excluded get marginalized even further. But that's how it goes when everyone minds their own business and those who mind their business the best multiplies their gains the fastest. People with gear get more gear, people with gold get more gold etc.

[Deleted]

I recently started mythic dungeons, made all the groups myself via the party finder and I just fly to the dungeon entrance while the group forms. I was one of the very few who liked having to unlock the dungeons in cataclysm first time round too.

[Wries]

Because I can and it's easier. If game allows me to queue everywhere - why bother with anything else?

Because money. If developers removed queue things then I would use "normal" ways to go there. But they wont because lots of people will quit.

People already quit, though. They made an expansion entirely focused on the concept that "people don't have time and shouldn't need to spend time in order to progress" and it's almost universally disliked, with sub numbers so low that Blizzard doesn't dare disclosing them anymore.

[Sencha]

Because then normal+ would be neared to lfr level

100% this.

LFR is the highest difficulty a group of random people with no RL can achieve.

[Dead Moose Fandango]

People already quit, though. They made an expansion entirely focused on the concept that "people don't have time and shouldn't need to spend time in order to progress" and it's almost universally disliked, with sub numbers so low that Blizzard doesn't dare disclosing them anymore.

And it certainly had nothing to do with, y'know, very little actual content being released and/or the year-long lack of anything new.

[Mosotti]

I don't understand how people have a desire to play WoW or any other MMO, but don't want to interact with other players to get stuff done in the game, or to participate in content in a game.

I want to interact and play the game, what I don't want is to interact for hours instead of playing the game. Translation: if I need to spend hours to gather a bunch of people to do something in the game, fuck that game.

Now I totally understand why some people would like something like that, what I don't understand is why some people don't understand that there are people that don't like that shit. Understanding that people are different and they have different likes and dislikes is the key

[deniter]

I want to interact and play the game, what I don't want is to interact for hours instead of playing the game. Translation: if I need to spend hours to gather a bunch of people to do something in the game, fuck that game.

Now I totally understand why some people would like something like that, what I don't understand is why some people don't understand that there are people that don't like that shit. Understanding that people are different and they have different likes and dislikes is the key

If you need to spend hours to gather people to do something in the game it's most likely because:

1) You want to do something that doesn't interest other players, i.e it's worthless content for character progression and/or designed poorly.

2) Server population is too low to find like-minded players interested in said content, which means the game is unpopular / bad.

3) You have gained bad reputation amongst the community because you've been either an ass or a miserable team player.

[Tadkins]

If you need to spend hours to gather people to do something in the game it's most likely because:

1) You want to do something that doesn't interest other players, i.e it's worthless content for character progression and/or designed poorly.

So what was one able to do if they wanted to get certain things done that weren't the norm, but required help?

A couple of examples in Vanilla I could remember falling along those lines were the Nathanos Blightcaller quest and the Battle for Darrowshire. Getting people for those was like pulling teeth.

I remember ending Vanilla and going into BC with quests from BRD still in my log, because absolutely no one wanted to go into the parts of BRD that they required.

I wish I was better at getting people to cooperate. That's why I don't really have the fondest memories of Vanilla. xD

2) Server population is too low to find like-minded players interested in said content, which means the game is unpopular / bad.

This was a problem too. I was on a low-pop PvP server back in Vanilla, but the issue there I think was that Blizz released way too many new servers at once.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Some people will just not want to be social even at a very social event like say a party. We all know the type at a party that grab a drink or beer and end up just chilling on the sofa or the classic scene of them just standing in the corner only passingly talking to people when it is necessary. Truth be told a lot of times these are some of the coolest people at the party but most people just won't ever know because they are just introverted. This obviously isn't something extroverted people like me often understand because we are often trained socially that those people are strange or weird. I would be lying if while I was in high school and college I had a very similar outlook on people like that.

But what you need to do is just let those people join in on things in life. They just interact differently with people than we do. Now don't take this as EVERYONE that refuses to act socially are in that boat. Some people are just looking for an easy ride and those people are the only folks that can be the problem. But as we learn in life people like that exist on every level of society. You will have a lazy ass boss that is because his daddy was a someone. Or a guy that is good at bullshitting when the boss is around and does nothing at any other time. Then of course you have the internet factor here where some people likely just hate raiding so they will do whatever it takes to destroy it because of the whole internet and center of the universe creationist feeling they get from just hating.

So the lesson is be watchful to the kinda anti social folks. A lot of them will end up being cool as fuck if you warm up to them and give them a chance. Don't go in and expect them to all be free loaders and haters. But of course like when dealing with all people it is certainly a possibility.

[Chrno]

So what was one able to do if they wanted to get certain things done that weren't the norm, but required help?

A couple of examples in Vanilla I could remember falling along those lines were the Nathanos Blightcaller quest and the Battle for Darrowshire. Getting people for those was like pulling teeth.

I remember ending Vanilla and going into BC with quests from BRD still in my log, because absolutely no one wanted to go into the parts of BRD that they required.

I wish I was better at getting people to cooperate. That's why I don't really have the fondest memories of Vanilla. xD



This was a problem too. I was on a low-pop PvP server back in Vanilla, but the issue there I think was that Blizz released way too many new servers at once.

to answer this:
You couldn't do much more then spam tradechat/LFG channel and ask in guild / friendslist.
Too many people had problems getting stuff done which is why they so drasticly changed the game to be less depended on others.

Most people who i've spoken to that had these problems have told me that this was their first MMO and that they were quiet young at the time. For people abit more mature (or have english as their native language) it wasn't too bad finding groups really. I am currently having ALLOT more problems finding a decent group to do challenge modes...... i have a monster patience, but without a guild group it's EXTREMELY difficult to find a CM group to UBRS as a prot warrior ... to get GOLD

[Tadkins]

to answer this:
You couldn't do much more then spam tradechat/LFG channel and ask in guild / friendslist.
Too many people had problems getting stuff done which is why they so drasticly changed the game to be less depended on others.

Most people who i've spoken to that had these problems have told me that this was their first MMO and that they were quiet young at the time. For people abit more mature (or have english as their native language) it wasn't too bad finding groups really.

EQ was actually my first MMO, but I faced the same problems there as I did early on in WoW. Just kind of quiet and don't stand out very much, so I've never been able to build the vast connections needed to play the game at the time.

But yep, if they did fix things around to help those who struggled to get stuff done...is that really a bad thing? I don't think it is.

[deniter]

So what was one able to do if they wanted to get certain things done that weren't the norm, but required help?

A couple of examples in Vanilla I could remember falling along those lines were the Nathanos Blightcaller quest and the Battle for Darrowshire. Getting people for those was like pulling teeth.

I remember ending Vanilla and going into BC with quests from BRD still in my log, because absolutely no one wanted to go into the parts of BRD that they required.

I'd put this to the first category: bad design. In vanilla WoW people tend to skip lots of group quests because they didn't give good enough rewards and they were able to level up to max even if they skipped these quests. Many long quest lines required to group ended with some crappy green armor or weapon as a reward, so why bother. Surprisingly, there was always groups for Jintha'alor and The Anchient Egg + Saving Sharpbeak, because everyone knew you would be rewarded with The Egg of Hakkar and a chance for epic loot a few levels later.

Same with the BRD part; I've played vanilla for a good decade and downed Bael'gar maybe 3-4 on different toons. It never was a worth the hassle to plow through countless dark dwarves only to get a crappy quest reward and a low chance for a decent phat loot.

The fact that there were these quests is awesome; the execution, however, was not. As a designer you gotta think how your players would think in a given situation. How many times have you read on forums Blizz poster commenting like "We didn't expect this kind of player behaviour at all"?

[Seefer]

I participate in friend & guild activities, and I love to queue, because I don't have to meet some raid leader's arbitrary (and most of the time outrageous) standards. I get in 100% of the time, don't get "rejected" when I apply to a group, and don't have to put up with someone's over-inflated ego.

Organized activities outside of queue-able content, I only do with guild mates and friends. People using the Group Finder tool (and to a lesser extent OpenRaid) tend to want inflated item levels, and achievements for the content they are doing. Learning/progression groups that will take players learning the content are few and far between. So, it's simply not worth it.

Also, queuing is available at all hours every day, not so much with organized groups.

There should be both, as there are uses for both.

Find a guild that works your way or form your own group.............voila problem solved, I mean unless you straight up don't want to learn fights or learn your class and want to be carried then yeah.

[Tadkins]

Same with the BRD part; I've played vanilla for a good decade and downed Bael'gar maybe 3-4 on different toons. It never was a worth the hassle to plow through countless dark dwarves only to get a crappy quest reward and a low chance for a decent phat loot.

The fact that there were these quests is awesome; the execution, however, was not. As a designer you gotta think how your players would think in a given situation. How many times have you read on forums Blizz poster commenting like "We didn't expect this kind of player behaviour at all"?

Indeed. I've always been a completionist; I wanted to get certain quests done "just to get them out of the way".

It was just frustrating trying to convince people to help, but failing. Meanwhile it was doubly frustrating to hear folks say "oh yeah we got that done in 5 minutes np it's easy".

>

I'm fairly certain that the keys to success in these games involve some sort of mind manipulation techniques. Teach me your secrets, people!

[Marrilaife]

How many times have you read on forums Blizz poster commenting like "We didn't expect this kind of player behaviour at all"?

Well that's a bit embarrassing towards their experts, if someone mathed out "the best dps" rotation and it was different from intended, then ability tuning was done wrong, if it was something they expected to be done in an elaborate way and players took the path of least resistance you'd think that's a pretty basic trait of human psychology.

If something is unfun and lame they should ensure it's also not the most efficient solution to the given task, if there's some clunky gameplay they should make sure it doesn't provide the best dps of a class among all options.

[Raelbo]

Im genuinely curious about this mentality. The whole: "If a queue is not available for me, I won't participate"...

<snip>

I don't understand how people have a desire to play WoW or any other MMO, but don't want to interact with other players

Sounds to me like you're misrepresenting what people have been saying and trying to strawman the issue.

People play this game to have fun and a big part of the fun is participating in group content. That does not mean that the process of finding group members in trade is fun, or that travelling to an instance entrance is fun or that everyone has to enjoy a mandatory minimum amount of interaction. Queues reduce a tedious element of the game and allow us to skip to the fun part - at least for less serious elements of the game.

In the end what you seem to lack is the ability to understand people - poor EQ maybe? I don't know. Either way, different people have different preferences and care to interact with others in different ways. It doesn't mean they lack the ability to enjoy an MMO or that they should not participate in an MMO.