Guess Jaina's still a fem-varian then.

[Al Gorefiend]

I hate how she holds such a grudge against the Horde. Her life may very well have been saved by Baine.

[Aucald]

Regardless - even **I** am sick to death of the Alliance forgives everything nonsense.

Especially since it has again cost the Horde their own capital city. Why couldn't we get a nice Blood Elven base somewhere?

This type of writing simply runs down the Alliance and makes them appear stupid and weak. It makes them hopeless enemies and it makes the Horde look worse as we keep being forgiven. We exist at the sufferance of the Alliance but we aren't worth the trouble.

Not a feeling I like.

I would much prefer that Dalaran not be used - we don't need a rehashed safe zone. Give it to the Alliance for their own stories.

But I would have loved to have seen the Horde especially get their own base city...we haven't really had one. We had Shattrath (Draenei) and Dalaran (Human) and Orgimmar (Orc) and a Temple (Pandaren) and our garrison....but no real Horde base city.

I don't think this is necessarily a black mark on the Alliance, though - Dalaran is a Kirin Tor stronghold, and the Kirin Tor has been neutral since the events of Warcraft 2. While they briefly flirted with partisan politics when Jaina took the reins her leadership of the Kirin Tor proved short-lived and they've reverted to neutrality once more with the threat of global annihilation from the forces of the Legion. Since Dalaran especially is Azeroth's only *mobile* major city it makes sense to use it as a staging ground in the Broken Isles, just as it makes sense for Dalaran to abandon partisan politics with a worldwide threat that has already led to the death of several Horde and Alliance notables.

As for base cities, the Alliance hasn't had one either - we've either had neutral sanctuaries shared by both factions under an uneasy armistice, or we've had faction-themed outposts like the MoP shrines, garrisons, or Ashran encampments (more hubs than true cities).

[Florena]

I don't think this is necessarily a black mark on the Alliance, though - Dalaran is a Kirin Tor stronghold, and the Kirin Tor has been neutral since the events of Warcraft 2. While they briefly flirted with partisan politics when Jaina took the reins her leadership of the Kirin Tor proved short-lived and they've reverted to neutrality once more with the threat of global annihilation from the forces of the Legion. Since Dalaran especially is Azeroth's only *mobile* major city it makes sense to use it as a staging ground in the Broken Isles, just as it makes sense for Dalaran to abandon partisan politics with a worldwide threat that has already led to the death of several Horde and Alliance notables.

As for base cities, the Alliance hasn't had one either - we've either had neutral sanctuaries shared by both factions under an uneasy armistice, or we've had faction-themed outposts like the MoP shrines, garrisons, or Ashran encampments (more hubs than true cities).

I don't think Dalaran left the alliance until Wrath, when they went neutral to work with the sunreavers. Then they briefly joined again in MOP, but left again for Legion once again going neutral, unless they're still technically in the Alliance but cooperating with the horde in Legion like Khadgar was in WoD.

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What even happens at the Broken Shore exactly that makes her think the Horde "betrayed" the Alliance? I've played both sides and while Horde cover the flank they get over run, while Alliance take the main assault they're also overrun. I know the cinematic isn't in yet but is there something the Horde do that makes her think they "betrayed" them?

What seems to happen is that the horde gets overwhelmed and has to fall back, causing the demons to flank the Alliance and get overwhelmed. We don't know the specifics yet though.

[Mehrunes]

I'm so tired of Jaina's personality disorder symptoms, the sooner she is dead the better. Her character is completely and very badly butchered, beyond redemption.
I'm not delusional to believe otherwise.

But what if she was secretly a High Elf (better yet, a Half-Elf)? Would she still be beyond redemption then?

[Schattenlied]

But nooo, after reading this (Spoilers) seems like Jainas had another personality relapse.

You're right, she totally had no reason to get pissed at the Horde for abandoning her, and her King, in what was supposed to be a joint strike against the legion (as far as her personal experience of being in that fight tells her, this is the truth)... Shame on her /s

What seems to happen is that the horde gets overwhelmed and has to fall back, causing the demons to flank the Alliance and get overwhelmed. We don't know the specifics yet though.

And all she knows, from her experience of being present at the time of the supposed betrayal, is that the Horde abandoned them to be slaughtered.

[Aucald]

I don't think Dalaran left the alliance until Wrath, when they went neutral to work with the sunreavers. Then they briefly joined again in MOP, but left again for Legion once again going neutral, unless they're still technically in the Alliance but cooperating with the horde in Legion like Khadgar was in WoD.

Dalaran was basically destroyed in the events of Warcraft 3 and ceased to be an entity capable of an allegiance until it reappeared on the world's stage (as a neutral entity) in WotLK. I've no real idea what it's status was during reconstruction as regards it's affiliation to the Alliance, but since it wasn't a player on the faction stage anymore I'd suppose it wouldn't matter overly.

[FelPlague]

What even happens at the Broken Shore exactly that makes her think the Horde "betrayed" the Alliance? I've played both sides and while Horde cover the flank they get over run, while Alliance take the main assault they're also overrun. I know the cinematic isn't in yet but is there something the Horde do that makes her think they "betrayed" them?

we dont see the cinematic so we dont know 100% yet, but from what people say about it, it seems to be the horde retreat, leaving the allaince to be surronded

[KrazyK923]

No, she's not a fem Varian.

She just has the same view of the Horde as Varian did because they, you know, dropped a nuclear bomb on her home.

I just love how people constantly bitch and moan about the story being bad but the few times they try and progress characters to a new story, people throw fits because the character isn't the same.

Nothing more fun than a character like Sylvanas or Thrall who has literally no arc (Outside of maybe an irrelevant tangent in a book that is immediately resolved and they go back to normal) and is exactly the same for 10+ years.

Next thing we're gonna be seeing Jaina making a magical covern called "Sorceress Frequency", where other female mages talk about how they are oppressed, despite not being so.

Yes thanks we all know how you and the others feel about a character acting realistically toward the entire life being destroyed.

[TheDestinatus]

Oh boy oh boy, retard alert.

1st read rise of the horde, it's obvious you haven't because you only have about half the story. You also don't take into the world the orcs live on, everything wanted to kill them already, they never had peaceful lives, and the demon specifically with the title "deciver" tricked them with their own culture and perverted it. They drank the blood at the end of the road of damnation, not the start.

2. Read lord of the clans, because thrall learned near jack shit about nobility from the humans. If taretha didn't exsist he would have grown up hating the humans, and he still has a problem with any orc in human chains (note his encounter with varian in soO)

You also hilariously forgot what clan he came from, the frost wolves were the most level-headed and peaceful of all the orc clans. If he was raised by them he would have turned out fine.

3. Calling tauren idiots just reinforces the fact that you have no fucking clue what you are even talking about.

4. I'll ask you a simple question, are you unable or unwilling to read or watch videos? Because garithos was far from the only human that screwed the elves over. The kirin tor says hello. Not to mention the alliance once again sends spies and sabetouers to Quel'Thalas in burning crusade. Basically check yourself before you start hamfisting the keyboard and filling your posts with headcanon. And P.s using the humans as meat sheilds not the same as "fighting with them for thousands of years" not to mention f
they stuck around in Dalaran before because human mages are idiots and without guidence would have demons crawling all over their ass.

5. Once again you pollute the lore section with head canon. Read up on ask CDev or actually play through the forsaken are lvl 1-18. Because it's obvious you never have done either of those.

Tl'dr , learn your shit.

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I still have hopes she stops acting so crazy and settles down a bit. That or send her off to the violet hold to cool off for a month or too. In character, my blood elf mage would want her dead. But for the sake of the alliance story, they don need another failure of a character like tyrande.

Books, book, books, leading the charge of lore change since the need to create more money was a thing. They weren't deceived, keep telling yourself whatever you want but Grom spells out the story and thats all that will ever matter. They drank willingly multiple times. Your desperate need to accept rewritten history of the game because you're a sympathiser means nothing to me. The game tells the story, live the novels as much as you want.

If Thrall learned nothing from the humans he would have come out like conan, unable to speak properly, a dumb brute who was incapable of doing anything but fighting. Orgrim should have been dead, retcon him back in and suddenly we have pappa just doing the right thing for Orcs by killing all humans Orgrim instructing thrall on "honour", as if he even understood the concept by betraying Blackhand and leading the Horde to ruin.

Show 1 thing that taurens have done thats meaningful to the story as a whole. PS, you can't. The only time they have any value is when they die/moo a bit.

Sending spies into the enemy in BC as if thats a surprise, after all the Elves had already activated dumb shit mode and followed the naga into outlands prior to this point or are you incapable of following a time line? The Elves may have been put in a bad situation but there was nothing stopping them from loading onto ships and sailing to Kalimdor when everyone else did, they were just as eager to abandon Qual'thalas to go to outland with Illidan so its got nothing to do with loyalty or heritage.

Its not head canon, its called playing the game. Not reading the game, or interrupting the game with whatever book is being released this week with the latest rewritten history to support whatever drivel is being pumped out. The way you accept everything thats released and constantly edited makes you the matron mother of consumer whores.

[purebalance]

Lets not turn this into another "HORDE ARE EVIL, NO THEY'RE NOT, YES THEY ARE, NO THEY'RE NOT" thread please, that shit ends up nowhere.

This is why SWTOR has so much better lore and writing than WoW. Sith are pretty much evil and Republic is pretty much good. There is a gray area with both sides where Republic does some awful things and Sith shows that they are capable of empathy, but overall it's fairly cut and dry. They don't have themselves written into a corner that they somehow have to make both sides good.

[KrazyK923]

Severely disappointed when I saw this. They took a good character and made her extremely simple. "I hate horde, despite it being one guy who is fucked up and despite the actual horde HELPING us kill him, all horde are bad."

Jaina would never be as stupid as this, they really messed up this character.

lol wut? The one guy who fucked up? You mean the entirety of the Horde who went along with the destruction of Theramore (Even if they were unaware of the arcane bomb, they still agreed to march on it) with the one exception of Baine, who actually had a conscience and warned her? Because, you know, no one had the balls to stand up against Garrosh despite apparently, after-the-fact, finding out everybody disagreed with him.

[Irian]

While played out horribly wrong (as usual), her reaction is appropriate.

She may forgive the Horde, but she doesn't trust the Horde. Every time the Horde does something bad, she goes back into the "I don't trust you" mode. In her eyes, she's been confirmed too many times that trusting or teaming with the Horde leads to betrayal; first Theramore and Garrosh, then the Sunreavers, now the Broken Shore. These were all times were she has been justifiably upset, and she keeps trying to forgive the Horde yet every time the Alliance works together with the Horde, the Horde has, through some twist of fate, fucked them over, caused their deaths or generally not played nice. That's why she wanted them "dismantled" in SoO. It's not that she wanted them all to be killed, and that very likely wasn't what she was trying to get Varian to do; she wanted him to hold them accountable and, while they had power over them, break them apart so they could not conspire, fight against the Alliance and cost both sides more lives.

And she's right. The Horde can't be trusted. The Horde can't even trust the Horde. It's a dangerous and unpredictable faction.
However, this horribly shown in game and she's represented more as a grumpy old lady who has a serious bipolar issue.

[KrazyK923]

But this is horribly shown in game and she's represented more as a grumpy old lady who has a serious bipolar issue.

No it's because Horde fanboys go on a fucking tear whenever Jaina mentions all the terrible things the Horde has done. But then sit there and pretend Sylvanas is the best character ever for doing that same shit to the Alliance, defending her religiously because she's "badass."

[Mehrunes]

High/Blood Elves basing all their future Human relationships on one General who wasn't a major power, he assumed the position of power because their was no one left and is like saying Obama was president once, lets never be Allies with the US again... Its how children think. Never mind that the Humans had been fighting with them for thousands of years, had a city of magic that basically acted like a centre of diplomacy between the two species, no, lets join the Orcs who just spent the last 20 years killing us off. Yarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrpp. Not to mention the Trolls, the species we hate the most.

In case you haven't played Warcraft III or read Lor'themar's short story, it was more than Garithos. You know, the city of magic that acted like a center of diplomacy between the two species. That they helped to create. That was their closest partner among the human kingdoms. That was home to many High Elves. They turned their backs on the High Elves in their time of need. And all it took was

one General who wasn't a major power

The forsaken are abominations, having a mind back doesn't change what you are and lets say just for saying sake that you live and let live undead until they disappear over time. Sylvanas has been defiling more people to bolster the size of the undead army. Who knows what proportion of the Forsaken are risen Gilneans at this point, after all she lost a lot of people getting into Gilneas so she corrupted them to keep up her numbers. Shes just as bad as Arthas. Not to mention it doesn't even make sense, the forsaken as supposed to have free will so any Gilneans she raised should have turned upon her, instead they all just mindlessly jumped ship and started killing their own. If they don't have free will than they aren't forsaken, just puppet undead.

But they do have free will. Seriously, Word of God. You people who constantly act like Sylvanas personally killed your child have fuck all to stand on here. Just a reminder if you forgot, the Forsaken have enemies, they need an army to protect themselves. They fought with Scarlet for years literally at their doorstep and they had numerous Alliance outposts at their borders as well. And in case you haven't played Cataclysm as well, there was a world war between the factions going on at the time. With the Alliance having a hate-boner against the Alliance for actions of a traitor (which would be like Forsaken hating the Alliance for actions of Arthas). They even invaded WPL under the pretense of fighting the Scourge just to pick a fight against the Forsaken.

[TheDestinatus]

In case you haven't played Warcraft III or read Lor'themar's short story, it was more than Garithos. You know, the city of magic that acted like a center of diplomacy between the two species. That they helped to create. That was their closest partner among the human kingdoms. That was home to many High Elves. They turned their backs on the High Elves in their time of need. And all it took was





But they do have free will. Seriously, Word of God. You people who constantly act like Sylvanas personally killed your child have fuck all to stand on here. Just a reminder if you forgot, the Forsaken have enemies, they need an army to protect themselves. They fought with Scarlet for years literally at their doorstep and they had numerous Alliance outposts at their borders as well. And in case you haven't played Cataclysm as well, there was a world war between the factions going on at the time. With the Alliance having a hate-boner against the Alliance for actions of a traitor (which would be like Forsaken hating the Alliance for actions of Arthas). They even invaded WPL under the pretense of fighting the Scourge just to pick a fight against the Forsaken.

That was my entire point, that if they did have free will they absolutely no reason to support Sylvanas, especially the Gilneans who had just been killed because of her. Anyone risen by her or her actions that was not affected by the actions of Arthas directly had no reason to side with her.

[Mehrunes]

I gave up on Jaina after I read the spoilers long ago. Thought that in War Crimes we finally got back on track with her, but no. We need to indulge the Alliance zealots fantasy about her being an oppressed character.

Well, ever since Theramore not-treasons by the Horde are her trigger, so she acts consistently, kinda. Like when she purged an entire sub-faction in her city because a single individual (not like she bothered to gather that knowledge) followed her footsteps. Sylvanas making a logical decision that saved Horde lives sort of fits.

That was my entire point, that if they did have free will they absolutely no reason to support Sylvanas, especially the Gilneans who had just been killed because of her.

Yet some do. Not sure if many from Gilneas though, Forsaken can't raise Worgen and that was a lot of humans out there. And then there's some that were turned into Forsaken and then betrayed them like the SFK squad.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

All she wanted was to study.

[TheDestinatus]

Well, ever since Theramore not-treasons by the Horde are her trigger, so she acts consistently, kinda. Like when she purged an entire sub-faction in her city because a single individual (not like she bothered to gather that knowledge) followed her footsteps. Sylvanas making a logical decision that saved Horde lives sort of fits.




Yet some do. Not sure if many from Gilneas though, Forsaken can't raise Worgen and that was a lot of humans out there. And then there's some that were turned into Forsaken and then betrayed them like the SFK squad.

How is Sylvanas any better than Arthas if she is raising people from the dead who were not affected by the plague?

[Mehrunes]

oh look another "jaina is horrible" thread, meanwhile ignoring everything the horde has done to her, and how much trauma she has gone through her life, but no, there is no reason she would be unstable, or in any way hate the horde, sure, yeah, no shes just a bitch

Because, obviously, after she has invaded Horde territory (even prior to Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale that officially started the war), Garrosh should have sent her flowers.

How is Sylvanas any better than Arthas if she is raising people from the dead who were not affected by the plague?

Dunno, the same way Ebon Blade or Odyn aren't as bad as Arthas maybe.

[Tyron]

How is Sylvanas any better than Arthas if she is raising people from the dead who were not affected by the plague?

Isn't it obvious? She serves the horde.

PD: Sorry I couldn't resist :P