20 Man Mythic: Success or Failure?

[Deleted]

I enjoyed 10 man raiding but 20 man. mythic was great too. On my server it was next to impossible to find 20 suitable raiders so we often had the same few people dying, leading to a lot of wipes...

All in all raiding was the best part of the wod expansion tho,.. Some truly great fights.. If only there were more (world) content outside of raiding.

[Deleted]

It's not obvious to me that more people completing mythic was Blizzard's goal (except perhaps in the last part of the final tier where mythic serves as extension content for otherwise non-mythic raiders.)

Yes mythic is obviously tuned to be exclusive. The goal is to keep people out.

[NFA]

20 man mythic killed my raiding team. I see nothing positive in it whatsoever.

[Deleted]

Could you give a couple examples since I can't come with game breaking issues obviously from the perspective of someone who wasn't world first on any encounter. The durumu maze was a bit hard to spot allegedly depending on setting and hardware but as somebody striving to handle the toughest pve content group content a game has to offer you should be able to realize when you are taking damage.

In old heroic and new mythic content, it is too late when you realized you take damage. There is 1shot mechanics. In LFR you can sit in aoe and contemplate what way to run.

[Deleted]

The quality of the encounters and mechanics were really high and the tuning was rather adequate from my point of view (and from what little I've seen). Quality wise I'd say the 20 man mythic concept worked out well, and it probably provided a good environment for world first races/the competitive scene (I do think that the dissolution of many high end guilds was caused by different factors than raid content quality).

Now for me personally, it wasn't that much of a plus. 10 man's been my favorite format (Mostly due to the higher impact of the individual, less raid CD inflation, etc. As well as the highly reduced logistic effort required). Ain't gonna burn my fingers about details of 10 vs 25 hc difficulty disparity in the past beyond saying that 10 man hc wasn't pure tourist mode at any point since it's conception.

[Osmeric]

Yes mythic is obviously tuned to be exclusive. The goal is to keep people out.

Yes. Which makes it amusing when people complain their raid group was excluded. Exclusion is great until it happens to them.

[Deleted]

Yes. Which makes it amusing when people complain their raid group was excluded. Exclusion is great until it happens to them.

Depends, I kinda enjoy having a tad bit of content above my level of play. At least there's something to dabble in when you've done most stuff you'd reasonably achieve based on your skill/time investment.

Personally I'm way too much put off with the specific challenges of groups much larger than 10 people to make a serious go at mythic raiding. Gameplay wise it's been fun to try them out a bit, however the single 20 man mythic guilds I've raided with for a bit was plagued heavily by clique-drama, unsuitable leadership and a couple too many players who couldn't accept that they're not god's gift to raiding and only being kept from being world first in everything by those terrible, terrible [insert target of the day]s. Smaller group sizes probably do not reach critical mass for drama/logistic breakdown quite that easily.

[Deleted]

Personally I think 15 man would have been the way to go, but only if they didn't add any new classes ever again. So they could still make mechanics where one of a class is needed, because the class will be there.
But since they add a class every other expansion 20 Man is the way to go.

The smaller the raid size, the less likely it is to have one of every class. Which in turn makes tuning around class ability impossible. So either multiple classes share the same abilities and therefore feel the same or blizzard sticks with class fantasy...

[Raiju]

Personally I think 15 man would have been the way to go, but only if they didn't add any new classes ever again. So they could still make mechanics where one of a class is needed, because the class will be there.
But since they add a class every other expansion 20 Man is the way to go.

The smaller the raid size, the less likely it is to have one of every class. Which in turn makes tuning around class ability impossible. So either multiple classes share the same abilities and therefore feel the same or blizzard sticks with class fantasy...

Yeah blast furnace a+ fight, just as interesting as razuvi- oh wait the crystal was better anyway.

[cFortyfive]

Yes, some classes made encounters easier but lack of them didn't mean they were undoable. I am speaking from the perspective of a guild that had issues with keeping all class roster from a while. In MoP we had to resolve to alts. In WoD not having some classes only ment we had to take different approach and the encounter was slightly harder. This is a huge difference.

I can't think of a single encounter that I'd call strictly impossible with a somewhat reasonable rosters.

In old heroic and new mythic content, it is too late when you realized you take damage. There is 1shot mechanics.

Sure and all those one shot mechanics were totally invisible.

[Deleted]

Yeah blast furnace a+ fight, just as interesting as razuvi- oh wait the crystal was better anyway.

Just because they fail at SOME bosses doesn't mean the whole system doesn't work.

[clevin]

It's not obvious to me that more people completing mythic was Blizzard's goal (except perhaps in the last part of the final tier where mythic serves as extension content for otherwise non-mythic raiders.)

First, we're talking Mythic here. That's the thread topic.

Second, any rational team would want to at least maintain the high end raiding population if not grow it. That is, if X people cleared Heroic in MoP (what's now Mythic) then you'd want that many people or more to clear the Mythic raids in WoD. Otherwise, as a business, you're saying it's fine to drive people away as a goal. That may happen - look at subs after all - but no rational business has that as a goal.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes mythic is obviously tuned to be exclusive. The goal is to keep people out.

I get that you and Os hate anything that takes skill but this is bullshit. The goal is to set a high bar but from any rational point of view you'd want to maintain the prior expansion's population level etc. Especially early on when there were actually more subs in WoD than for most of MoP. See my reply to Os for rational thought vs this idiotic 'elitism is bad' crap you and he have going on.

[PrairieChicken]

First, we're talking Mythic here. That's the thread topic.

Second, any rational team would want to at least maintain the high end raiding population if not grow it. That is, if X people cleared Heroic in MoP (what's now Mythic) then you'd want that many people or more to clear the Mythic raids in WoD. Otherwise, as a business, you're saying it's fine to drive people away as a goal. That may happen - look at subs after all - but no rational business has that as a goal.

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I get that you and Os hate anything that takes skill but this is bullshit. The goal is to set a high bar but from any rational point of view you'd want to maintain the prior expansion's population level etc. Especially early on when there were actually more subs in WoD than for most of MoP. See my reply to Os for rational thought vs this idiotic 'elitism is bad' crap you and he have going on.

It is entirely possible that they would rather sacrifice participation rate than to "degrade" raiding.

If they wanted more people to raid the solution is easy: make it easier. But obviously they do not want to do it because you know why.

[clevin]

It is entirely possible that they would rather sacrifice participation rate than to "degrade" raiding.

If they wanted more people to raid the solution is easy: make it easier. But obviously they do not want to do it because you know why.

Sigh. Tinfoil a bit too tight?

They want (assuming rationality) to maintain MYTHIC participation while keeping it at the pinnacle of difficulty. Is that really so hard to comprehend? Make it easier isn't on the plate for this... people HAVE easier modes already.

[Relapses]

Sigh. Tinfoil a bit too tight?

They want (assuming rationality) to maintain MYTHIC participation while keeping it at the pinnacle of difficulty. Is that really so hard to comprehend? Make it easier isn't on the plate for this... people HAVE easier modes already.

Dude, you're making a lot of really stretched presumptions here. I hardly think the access to Mythic raiding drove away nearly as many subs as you seem to be indicating. And the fact that you're using this very weak presumption to come to the conclusion that Mythic raid participation is somehow indicative of the health of the game is pretty self-serving. If Blizzard felt participation levels were necessary for the game to succeed, they would have chosen a logistic size easier to maintain than 20M. In fact, that's the entire purpose of this thread: Debating whether such a move on Blizzard's part was the right one.

There are arguments to be made in favor or against it but I personally believe the devs are perfectly fine with the number of players completing Mythic content decreasing from the Cata/MoP model. The Heroic (now Mythic) raid participation levels from Cata/MoP are greatly inflated by 10H "casual hardcore" raiders which this system brought about. And honestly, they never should have existed in the first place. 20M Mythic is a stark shift away from catering to these players and again, that's why I think this is such a hot-button issue for a lot of people.

[Tharkkun]

The way Mythic was implemented did drive away people. You had a 10/25 man format for 8 years and then it changed. They also raised interest with a huge number of raiders at the end of MOP by adding 4 level of upgrades. This allowed many people to raid Mythic who really didn't have the skill set or experience to be there. So when they hit the brick wall in WoD along with the changing of raid size it caused a lot of people to quit.

[kary]

The way Mythic was implemented did drive away people. You had a 10/25 man format for 8 years and then it changed. They also raised interest with a huge number of raiders at the end of MOP by adding 4 level of upgrades. This allowed many people to raid Mythic who really didn't have the skill set or experience to be there. So when they hit the brick wall in WoD along with the changing of raid size it caused a lot of people to quit.

They always nerf content towards the end of the expansion so johnny no skill can complete the tier.
People that think they are super 1337 rayderz because they killed garrosh with 4/4 upgrades a month before the prepatch were outright lying to themselves if they thought they were competent, sorry. Those are the people that quit.

[Gilgameshh]

Sigh. Tinfoil a bit too tight?

They want (assuming rationality) to maintain MYTHIC participation while keeping it at the pinnacle of difficulty. Is that really so hard to comprehend? Make it easier isn't on the plate for this... people HAVE easier modes already.

I disagree in a way. I think mythic should be incredibly difficult, but I don't think it should require a full raid of 20 extremely good players to clear the content. If you can find a competent mythic guild where the majority of people are cool and friendly, you should probably buy some lottery tickets. Every skilled progressive guild I've talked to/had any experience with since vanilla are full of elitist pricks that really destroy the experience. Unless you're one of those people who don't give a shit and only care about pushing yourself to the limits in a video game for whatever satisfaction that brings you...

I also don't agree with RNG assignment for player responsibility within a fight. I'd much prefer being able to assign people to handle certain mechanics because otherwise you're just praying to god that your worst players don't get hit with the responsibility. Is that a fun way of doing things? It's why you need a full group of 20 people to be competent at pushing mythic at any reasonable rate.

All that being said, the biggest issue I have with mythic is the burnout. The difficulty is created in ways I'd like to see changed, sure, but the burnout of multiple difficulties is what really kills it for me. I don't think most people who want to raid mythic give any fucks about lesser difficulties; they want to skip straight to the actual end-game and hope that it's difficult enough to tide them over until the next raid patch hits. Why the hell do I want to kill the same shit over and over again on multiple difficulties? A few new mechanics really don't do it for me. The same loot with slightly higher stats doesn't do it for me. If I kill something on normal or heroic, I'm not very excited to go do it again on mythic. When I hit a wall on a boss I've killed in a lower difficulty, I start getting burnt out much faster. The allure of grinding on a boss to see a new part of the raid is completely gone because I've seen it all on a lower difficulty.

[Relapses]

They always nerf content towards the end of the expansion so johnny no skill can complete the tier.
People that think they are super 1337 rayderz because they killed garrosh with 4/4 upgrades a month before the prepatch were outright lying to themselves if they thought they were competent, sorry. Those are the people that quit.

Not neccessarily. When I say "casual hardcore" I mean the umpteen bajillion 6-8/14H guilds in SoO who never intended to clear anything further because half their roster were window lickers.

[Staryu]

It just sucks when you strike out to form a new guild, and if its later in the xpac ... good luck finding 20 ppl. Back in the day, you could EASILY and quickly find 9 ppl to make a solid progression guild.