No flying in 7.0 confirmed

[Deleted]

I understand, that no flying is important for immersion and RPing, that are major motivations for some players. What I don't understand, is why all of a sudden after 10 years Blizzard decided, that all players have to be forced to play like this and that outdoor content have to be dedicated to that players? And Blizzard don't even explain, why this decision is so important, or prove, that it's good for game. They just say "immersion - is most important thing in our game". Period. It's not enough for me, sorry. If I have to suffer from some change, I need to be sure, that it's worth it.

Yeah, Wow is MMORPG, but only tiny minority of players - are literally RPers. And they have their dedicated RP and PR-PVP servers. Why can't we disable flying there only? As I know, RPers have some rules, they have to follow. Why can't they set and follow no-flying rule then? Also, as I know, for many of them flying - is major part of their RPing.

Unfortunately for Blizzard, I can't even imagine, how I would play Wow without flying. It's like thinking about some painful procedure, like going to dentist or be operated. May be Blizzard think, that at some point players will get used to no flying, as they got used to other terrible changes? Yeah, back at the end of WotLK I said, that I would quit, if Blizzard would keep talent changes and class mechanics' nerfs (would never forgive them Druid Tree form removal). But at the end I given up and stopped caring about talents and class mechanics. Same happened with all other things: gems, chants, glyphs, reforging, dedicated spec gear, totems and all other class/spec homogenization. I think, I would even deal with ability pruning, cuz at least I understand, why they do it. But I will never get used to no flying. Cuz you just can't get used to pain. No flying - is that last straw for me, sorry.

Hell, no! I am a RP-player and I am disgusted by the effects of no-flying on my immersion. Warcraft had flying units since WCII. This is more than enough reasons for me to have personal flight.

Edit: If anything, they should add a personal combat CD (workin only in the open world), so your selected mount is fighting alongside you in a dire situation, like this awesome scene in the movie. Stupid devs are constantly missing opportunities.

[WowIsDead64]

I actually understand, why Blizzard remove flying in endgame content. They want to use their favourite method of making content - they want to slow us down via grind, but hide this grind behind some psychological tricks, like RNG, competition and illusion of being more effective. What do they do? They make quest, that asks you to kill 100 mobs - fill 100% bar, 1% per mob. But they add secondary objectives, that are actually more important, than primary ones. 3 or even more % per one. Why? Because pure 100 mob kill - is way too boring grind for average player. Like I've already said: tell player to kill 1000 mobs - and he'll refuse to do it, but tell him, that this mobs drop some item with 0.1% chance - and he'll do it, cuz he'll have passion and feeling, that any mob can drop this item at any moment - even first one. Skinner's chamber thing, you know... As the result - he'll gladly kill 2000 mobs, instead of 1000, due to being unlucky. So. This objectives add an illusion, that you can complete content faster, than via simply killing mobs. But it isn't the case for no flying scenario - it's just illusion. Simply because you'll waste more time searching for such objectives and getting to them, than to actually kill 3-5 mobs.

And this is terrible design in a first place. And instead of fixing it - Blizzard try to force players to play according to it. It leads to exact kind of gameplay, I hate the most. Competition... Competition for secondary objectives... Sometimes (in case of Sha'naar and Kra'nak) - for primary too. I.e. it turns PVE into semi-PVP. And I HATE PVP. Players chase this stupid secondary objectives, pull them from each others' hands and tend to ignore primary ones. They do it due to simple fact of existence of this secondary objectives and due to human psychology. And this leads to lack of such objectives. And instead of actually playing the game, players waste their time. They have two options: 1) To camp secondary objective spawns = idle 2) To search for spawned ones = to run around location, like a headless chicken. And I hate BOTH options. Believe me or not, but I'm RPer too. Yeah, I'm not "Explorer". That's why Bartle is wrong - according to him RPers fall into "Explorer" category. I'm not "Explorer" - I don't need story, lore and all other crap. But I need things, like immersion, escapism, customization. For example I want players' housing to appear in Wow. So, I'm RPer. And such kinds of gameplay, as waiting in a queue or the opposite - rushing like crazy to pull things away from other players' hands - are both killing my immersion. And I just can't stop myself from doing it - cuz I want to be effective too. Why can't Blizzard simply give us a quest to kill, let's say, 30 mobs, instead of 100 + that stupid secondary objectives?

Ok. Now about flying. I've already said, that I hate such kind of gameplay. Flying - is tool, that fixes this terrible gameplay, at least partially. Enough to make it sustainable. I.e. flying allows me to achieve exact goal, Blizzard don't want me to achieve - to skip all this terrible gameplay and make outdoor content enjoyable for me. Flying - is great compromise between unsustainable grind and complete trivialization of content, a.k.a. "epics on your mailbox".

And, as I already said. Problem isn't with flying/no flying - problem is with design of ground content itself. I will accept no flying, only if Blizzard will fix ground content and make it more like Vanilla's one:
1) Flat terrain
2) Bigger locations
3) Lesser density of mobs
4) Lesser spawn rates
5) Clear safe roads and paths
6) More ways to split players in order to avoid overcrowding

Make content enjoyable to do on a ground or allow me to fly. As simple, as that.

Or... Cardinal solution - personal instanced/phased questing. I won't hurry to anywhere and kill my immersion as the result, if there won't be any competition. No flying would be needed then.

[Maneo]

Says the guy who's making a classic correlation does not equal causation goof. Beautiful.

Ok so Blizzard said " Flight will return if a significant majority of players want it "

Then when they were finally honest and said " No Flight in WoD or any future content", (don't fool yourself that was their goal all along), it took them less then two weeks to change course. Mind you they made this announcement on a 3rd party website on a Friday... so it wasn't exactly common knowledge.

So you have a option Anoregon either
A. Blizzard is lying but when us pro flight people accuse them of such we are told "to take off our tin foil hats"
B. The significant majority spoke forcing Blizzards hand and making them enable flight

What other thread? What are you talking about? The majority of players don't care...as again by showing over 1/2 the playerbase STAYED and continued to play during WoD.

Hmmm didn't Blizzard say it was a 50/50 split on flight... and 50% left ..

Yes, the majority of players want flying; however, those same players don't care if it's back.

Got a source for that?
Cause news flash if players didn't care it it is back then Blizzard wouldn't have changed course when they said "no flying in WoD or future content"

Doesn't make much sense to devote time and resources to something unless it is going to potentially retain or bring in new players does it?

Yes, Blizzard did a 180, and was completely understandable. It was handled wrong (they admitted), and spring on a playerbase that wasn't ready for this major of a change (they admitted).

Well that is true

They have now compromised by allowing it at an undetermined date for Legion, the same they did with WoD.

So they are doubling down on stupid?

Unlikely. Chances the reason why flight isn't available at launch is cause Legion wasn't designed for it. Legion was in full development while Blizzard was of the mind set of "No flight in WoD or any future content". Of course if they wish to stick w/their release schedule flight is going to have to be enabled w/patches just like it was in WoD.

They were gambling when they made that announcement that all those that were passionate about flight would have left and the left would have become complacent to the idea of it being gone.

They lost.

The playerbase that stuck thru the original statement and the ones who came back from the reversal showed that they could do exactly this for Legion.

Well to be fair the original statement was " Flying will be enabled first major content patch" for WoD. That is why I stuck around until the 6.2 hit the PTR w/nothing of flight. Shortly after that Blizzard made the no flight statement I canceled my sub.

I guarantee Legion is going to launch w/the lowest subs in WoWs history sans maybe Vanillas launch. It will probably launch w/MoP content drought numbers... so your idea players just come back isn't the truth. For every player 10 players that leave only 5 will return. Sure some will come back .. not as many as you seem to think though.

Still would not be surprised for a future xpac to contain no flight

Unlikely Blizzard isn't willing to do the work needed to make a flightless expac work. I am willing to bet most future expacs will have flight at max level available at launch still may have to jump through some hoops to get it though.

as that is what Blizzard still seems to be going for...

Yah WoD was just a experiment to see if removing flight would cost them more subs <revenue> then the amount they would save from being able to develop all future content w/out flight.

possibly even moving towards a different style of fast travel or portals, as they e shown they are getting people acclimated towards this with features like toys and random items (FM whistle).

WoD had lots of those things already in place. Didn't work out so well did it?

If they want to move towards different style of fast travel they need to have that in place before removing flight.

Some regions don't even have RP servers, but "flying servers" - is actually great idea. I support it.

It is a great idea. Blizzard would make a crap ton of money from server transfers to.

Since it seems the majority of the anti flight crowd is the PVP folks I have always said "Fine disable flying on PVP servers" they don't like that idea either. Because they know that the moment that happens there will be a mass exodus of player from the PVP servers ...

And, as I already said. Problem isn't with flying/no flying - problem is with design of ground content itself. I will accept no flying, only if Blizzard will fix ground content and make it more like Vanilla's one:
1) Flat terrain
2) Bigger locations
3) Lesser density of mobs
4) Lesser spawn rates
5) Clear safe roads and paths
6) More ways to split players in order to avoid overcrowding

I agree to a extent. I have some things that need to happen to make a no flight expac successful, some of these things are being implemented in Legion, while other Blizzard would never do cause it would require to much work.

1. Have portal masters along w/flight masters. Work exactly the same way just instead of having a loading screen that is minutes long (you flying on the gryphon), those of us w/higher end PCs get a loading bar that lasts a few seconds.
2. Increase ground mount speed while on roads
3. Rework Hearthstone - use it once returns you to bound location, use it again w/in the 15 minutes returns you to where you were
4. Bring back have group will travel
5. Quest mobs and rares all share a faction tag - this is coming in Legion
6. Resource nodes are personally phased - this is coming in Legion
7. Reduce leveling mob density a month or so into the expac
8. Mobs can not stun or dismount you unless rare or out level you
9. Institute dynamic events in the open world (they did this in TI but didn't carry it forward in WoD)

this is the big one.

10. Have open world content patches every 3 months, adding quests dynamic events etc etc

Make content enjoyable to do on a ground or allow me to fly. As simple, as that.

Agree but easier said then done. Honestly take any of the expacs ... the open world content if fun sure.. but it doesn't last it is only fun for a finite amount of time..

I honestly don't believe many people left because of flight. What I do believe though is that the majority left because of WoWs short falls that were not painfully apparent when flight was enabled. Flight covers up many of WoWs flaws in regards to open world content.

Cardinal solution - personal instanced/phased questing. I won't hurry to anywhere and kill my immersion as the result, if there won't be any competition. No flying would be needed then.

Completely disagree here. WoW is a MMO and personally I want it to stay as much. What you are doing is turning the open world into a lobby for instanced content... that is no good.

[Eapoe]

Ok so Blizzard said " Flight will return if a significant majority of players want it "

Then when they were finally honest and said " No Flight in WoD or any future content", (don't fool yourself that was their goal all along), it took them less then two weeks to change course. Mind you they made this announcement on a 3rd party website on a Friday... so it wasn't exactly common knowledge.

So you have a option Anoregon either
A. Blizzard is lying but when us pro flight people accuse them of such we are told "to take off our tin foil hats"
B. The significant majority spoke forcing Blizzards hand and making them enable flight



Hmmm didn't Blizzard say it was a 50/50 split on flight... and 50% left ..



Got a source for that?
Cause news flash if players didn't care it it is back then Blizzard wouldn't have changed course when they said "no flying in WoD or future content"

Doesn't make much sense to devote time and resources to something unless it is going to potentially retain or bring in new players does it?



Well that is true



So they are doubling down on stupid?

Unlikely. Chances the reason why flight isn't available at launch is cause Legion wasn't designed for it. Legion was in full development while Blizzard was of the mind set of "No flight in WoD or any future content". Of course if they wish to stick w/their release schedule flight is going to have to be enabled w/patches just like it was in WoD.

They were gambling when they made that announcement that all those that were passionate about flight would have left and the left would have become complacent to the idea of it being gone.

They lost.



Well to be fair the original statement was " Flying will be enabled first major content patch" for WoD. That is why I stuck around until the 6.2 hit the PTR w/nothing of flight. Shortly after that Blizzard made the no flight statement I canceled my sub.

I guarantee Legion is going to launch w/the lowest subs in WoWs history sans maybe Vanillas launch. It will probably launch w/MoP content drought numbers... so your idea players just come back isn't the truth. For every player 10 players that leave only 5 will return. Sure some will come back .. not as many as you seem to think though.



Unlikely Blizzard isn't willing to do the work needed to make a flightless expac work. I am willing to bet most future expacs will have flight at max level available at launch still may have to jump through some hoops to get it though.



Yah WoD was just a experiment to see if removing flight would cost them more subs <revenue> then the amount they would save from being able to develop all future content w/out flight.



WoD had lots of those things already in place. Didn't work out so well did it?

If they want to move towards different style of fast travel they need to have that in place before removing flight.



It is a great idea. Blizzard would make a crap ton of money from server transfers to.

Since it seems the majority of the anti flight crowd is the PVP folks I have always said "Fine disable flying on PVP servers" they don't like that idea either. Because they know that the moment that happens there will be a mass exodus of player from the PVP servers ...



I agree to a extent. I have some things that need to happen to make a no flight expac successful, some of these things are being implemented in Legion, while other Blizzard would never do cause it would require to much work.

1. Have portal masters along w/flight masters. Work exactly the same way just instead of having a loading screen that is minutes long (you flying on the gryphon), those of us w/higher end PCs get a loading bar that lasts a few seconds.
2. Increase ground mount speed while on roads
3. Rework Hearthstone - use it once returns you to bound location, use it again w/in the 15 minutes returns you to where you were
4. Bring back have group will travel
5. Quest mobs and rares all share a faction tag - this is coming in Legion
6. Resource nodes are personally phased - this is coming in Legion
7. Reduce leveling mob density a month or so into the expac
8. Mobs can not stun or dismount you unless rare or out level you
9. Institute dynamic events in the open world (they did this in TI but didn't carry it forward in WoD)

this is the big one.

10. Have open world content patches every 3 months, adding quests dynamic events etc etc



Agree but easier said then done. Honestly take any of the expacs ... the open world content if fun sure.. but it doesn't last it is only fun for a finite amount of time..

I honestly don't believe many people left because of flight. What I do believe though is that the majority left because of WoWs short falls that were not painfully apparent when flight was enabled. Flight covers up many of WoWs flaws in regards to open world content.



Completely disagree here. WoW is a MMO and personally I want it to stay as much. What you are doing is turning the open world into a lobby for instanced content... that is no good.

No, don't remember anything of a 50-50 split and Blizzard saying 50% left, especially with a reason for the sub drop. Source this please.
Source is the fact that 5 million players still continued playing after the Twitter or Reddit announcement of no flight. The fact that those players still were playing and stuck around shows that not having flight is not a major concern to them. At least not enough of one to quit the game.
Considering they've already addressed concerns (yes, there was a blue post) about how they are already designing Legion with flight in mind so they won't have to race like they did with WoD (original plan to bring in flight but was designed without it until closer to the planned release), then your statement about Legion being designed without flight in mind falls flat. If they specifically state that the content was made for it to avoid problems like they had with WoD, just to later announce this was a flat out lie, the PR damage would be so great from a company-consumer standpoint that their public image would be completely ruined.
Well, to be fair, don't base your response on a technicality. We both know when I said original statement I was talking about the statement of no flight. It shows you don't take the conversation seriously and just looking for places to stand out. For your next point in that response, you are also basing that on a technicality because since Vanilla they had an increase of numbers up to Wrath, with a steady decline since then. With WoD having the lowest since Wrath, and following the steady decline, of course Legion will have the next lowest sub amount at launch. The people that stayed and the people that came back after the 180 of flight is what shows Blizzard can go forward in Legion with the plan of no flight at launch. The people that left for good no longer matter in this debate because they have shown they are done with the game and nothing will bring them back. (Please try not to base your points on a technicality. That entire segment of your response was a trap, plain and simple)
As far as not working to make a flightless xpac work? They've already done it with WoD and, so far, Legion. All content made without flight in mind. Flight at max level upon release is a hard thing to get now since the game still retained over 1/2 it's playerbase and some of those that left came back after flight was brought back, showing that the model will work for them.
Most of the things for fast travel were already in before flight removal...hearthstones, mage portals, garrison hearth, naval base hearth, Dalaran ring/portals, etc. They are now implementing even more with the whistle and new Dal ring. Most of these things were in place before the announcement, and now they are giving even more moving ahead.

[SirBeef]

I understand, that no flying is important for immersion and RPing, that are major motivations for some players. What I don't understand, is why all of a sudden after 10 years Blizzard decided, that all players have to be forced to play like this and that outdoor content have to be dedicated to that players? And Blizzard don't even explain, why this decision is so important, or prove, that it's good for game. They just say "immersion - is most important thing in our game". Period. It's not enough for me, sorry. If I have to suffer from some change, I need to be sure, that it's worth it.

Yeah, Wow is MMORPG, but only tiny minority of players - are literally RPers. And they have their dedicated RP and PR-PVP servers. Why can't we disable flying there only? As I know, RPers have some rules, they have to follow. Why can't they set and follow no-flying rule then? Also, as I know, for many of them flying - is major part of their RPing.

Unfortunately for Blizzard, I can't even imagine, how I would play Wow without flying. It's like thinking about some painful procedure, like going to dentist or be operated. May be Blizzard think, that at some point players will get used to no flying, as they got used to other terrible changes? Yeah, back at the end of WotLK I said, that I would quit, if Blizzard would keep talent changes and class mechanics' nerfs (would never forgive them Druid Tree form removal). But at the end I given up and stopped caring about talents and class mechanics. Same happened with all other things: gems, chants, glyphs, reforging, dedicated spec gear, totems and all other class/spec homogenization. I think, I would even deal with ability pruning, cuz at least I understand, why they do it. But I will never get used to no flying. Cuz you just can't get used to pain. No flying - is that last straw for me, sorry.

It's not just after 10 years. They realized it was a mistake when making WotLK. There was an interview or CM post about it talking about how allowing flight past TBC opened Pandora's box in a way and it would be too difficult to take away. That is why you see some max level areas with flying disabled. The only reason I think they did it in WoD, was becasue they had nothing else to lose in their minds. The saw the reaction and held it off for as long as they could and compromised going forward starting with Legion to allow flying sooner but not as soon as you hit level cap.

I would bet my company and life savings that if they could go back in time flying would be limited to Outland only and the makeup of the WotLK zones on would be vastly different.

- - - Updated - - -

No, don't remember anything of a 50-50 split and Blizzard saying 50% left, especially with a reason for the sub drop. Source this please.
Source is the fact that 5 million players still continued playing after the Twitter or Reddit announcement of no flight. The fact that those players still were playing and stuck around shows that not having flight is not a major concern to them. At least not enough of one to quit the game.
Considering they've already addressed concerns (yes, there was a blue post) about how they are already designing Legion with flight in mind so they won't have to race like they did with WoD (original plan to bring in flight but was designed without it until closer to the planned release), then your statement about Legion being designed without flight in mind falls flat. If they specifically state that the content was made for it to avoid problems like they had with WoD, just to later announce this was a flat out lie, the PR damage would be so great from a company-consumer standpoint that their public image would be completely ruined.
Well, to be fair, don't base your response on a technicality. We both know when I said original statement I was talking about the statement of no flight. It shows you don't take the conversation seriously and just looking for places to stand out. For your next point in that response, you are also basing that on a technicality because since Vanilla they had an increase of numbers up to Wrath, with a steady decline since then. With WoD having the lowest since Wrath, and following the steady decline, of course Legion will have the next lowest sub amount at launch. The people that stayed and the people that came back after the 180 of flight is what shows Blizzard can go forward in Legion with the plan of no flight at launch. The people that left for good no longer matter in this debate because they have shown they are done with the game and nothing will bring them back. (Please try not to base your points on a technicality. That entire segment of your response was a trap, plain and simple)
As far as not working to make a flightless xpac work? They've already done it with WoD and, so far, Legion. All content made without flight in mind. Flight at max level upon release is a hard thing to get now since the game still retained over 1/2 it's playerbase and some of those that left came back after flight was brought back, showing that the model will work for them.
Most of the things for fast travel were already in before flight removal...hearthstones, mage portals, garrison hearth, naval base hearth, Dalaran ring/portals, etc. They are now implementing even more with the whistle and new Dal ring. Most of these things were in place before the announcement, and now they are giving even more moving ahead.

Well if the sub loss was for the lack of flying none of them came back when it allowed. I find this hard to believe. I believe there are too many reasons to make a valid list of our guesses as to why that many people left. I feel most of the pro flyers stuck it out or that the amount of pro flyers that quite was just not that noticeable despite the claims on these forums.

[WowIsDead64]

Completely disagree here. WoW is a MMO and personally I want it to stay as much. What you are doing is turning the open world into a lobby for instanced content... that is no good.

Phased questing - is idea, similar to personal phased resource nodes, you've mentioned above, but applied to ALL outdoor content. You will still be able to see all players and interact with them, but there will be zero competition with other players in outdoor PVE -> outdoor PVE will become 100% PVE again. Bye-bye crappy semi-PVP, i.e. competition even with players from your faction, which is nonsense. Other players around should be your friends - not enemies. You should want to see more players around - not to be alone. Other players around - should be reward for you, not punishment. Teamwork - this, is what PVE about. Leave competition for PVP.

[SirBeef]

1) Flat terrain
2) Bigger locations
3) Lesser density of mobs
4) Lesser spawn rates
5) Clear safe roads and paths
6) More ways to split players in order to avoid overcrowding

I just leveled an alliance Rogue and most of Vanilla's terrain is not flat at all. There is not as much verticality except for the edges in the Vanilla zones, but more often than not there are plenty of inclines and declines, areas with drop offs or high areas you need to work around to get up to. The only difference is the zones were bigger and less densely populated with things.

I saw plenty of roads and they rarely had mobs coming after you unless it was some IH pats in Tanaan or near that elite outpost in Nagrand. Roads are still the safest way to get to places in WoW on the ground.

You come here often enough I am surprised you did not read the Blizzard comment on their new tech that creates a new copy of a zone when too many people get in to alleviate those issues.
If we go back to zones like they were in Vanilla it would be crap IMO. Too much of nothing in between spawn locations or quests/quest givers. I may contradict some things I have said in the past but it seemed like too much wasted time trying to find mobs to kill for quests waiting on spawn timers that I wanted the QoL changes made in MoP and WoD with relation to small more populated zones with quicker spawn times based on how many players are nearby.

- - - Updated - - -

Phased questing - is idea, similar to personal phased resource nodes, you've mentioned above, but applied to ALL outdoor content. You will still be able to see all players and interact with them, but there will be zero competition with other players in outdoor PVE -> outdoor PVE will become 100% PVE again. Bye-bye crappy semi-PVP, i.e. competition even with players from your faction, which is nonsense. Other players around should be your friends - not enemies. You should want to see more players around - not to be alone. Other players around - should be reward for you, not punishment. Teamwork - this, is what PVE about. Leave competition for PVP.

Nothing wrong with asking to group up for those quests. I hear people used to do that all the time.

[WowIsDead64]

It's not just after 10 years. They realized it was a mistake when making WotLK. There was an interview or CM post about it talking about how allowing flight past TBC opened Pandora's box in a way and it would be too difficult to take away. That is why you see some max level areas with flying disabled. The only reason I think they did it in WoD, was becasue they had nothing else to lose in their minds. The saw the reaction and held it off for as long as they could and compromised going forward starting with Legion to allow flying sooner but not as soon as you hit level cap.

I would bet my company and life savings that if they could go back in time flying would be limited to Outland only and the makeup of the WotLK zones on would be vastly different.

And I don't see, how flying can be issue. Wildstar had all things, no-flyers (and even wider category of players - so called Vanilla/TBC fans) were asking for. No flying, jump puzzles, vistas, path for explorers (you choose your path, when you create your character), which activates special world quests - finding vistas and doing jump puzzles, etc. And where is Wildstar? Why it wasn't super popular? Why millions of no-flyers didn't quit Wow to play Wildstar three (if I remember correctly) years ago? It's F2P, lol. Yeah, when Draenor was announced, it really looked, like Blizzard were scared, that Wildstar would drive all no-flyers and Vanilla/TBC fans away, but... It failed. So... Argument "flying isn't an issue" - is two-edged blade. You say, that no flying isn't an issue for majority of players, but then flying isn't an issue either. So why fix, what isn't broken?

- - - Updated - - -

I just leveled an alliance Rogue and most of Vanilla's terrain is not flat at all. There is not as much verticality except for the edges in the Vanilla zones, but more often than not there are plenty of inclines and declines, areas with drop offs or high areas you need to work around to get up to. The only difference is the zones were bigger and less densely populated with things.

I saw plenty of roads and they rarely had mobs coming after you unless it was some IH pats in Tanaan or near that elite outpost in Nagrand. Roads are still the safest way to get to places in WoW on the ground.

You come here often enough I am surprised you did not read the Blizzard comment on their new tech that creates a new copy of a zone when too many people get in to alleviate those issues.
If we go back to zones like they were in Vanilla it would be crap IMO. Too much of nothing in between spawn locations or quests/quest givers. I may contradict some things I have said in the past but it seemed like too much wasted time trying to find mobs to kill for quests waiting on spawn timers that I wanted the QoL changes made in MoP and WoD with relation to small more populated zones with quicker spawn times based on how many players are nearby.

That's because current Vanilla zones - are essentially Cata's zones (they were overhauled back in Cata). And it was Cata, when Blizzard started to use this terrible design - making small questing areas with high density of mobs and high spawn rates. Have you ever seen starting quests at Northern Barrens? That cave with...ehhmmm...without bores.

Nothing wrong with asking to group up for those quests. I hear people used to do that all the time.

I'm not social player and for me explicit grouping, this obsolete clunky mechanic, this crutch, this support, that is being expelled from all modern games - is felt like forced socialization. And forced socialization - is terrible thing. Same, as attempt to force all players into large guilds, performed by Ghostcrawler back in Cata. The only advantage of having group in outdoor content, that doesn't require healing and tanking (you don't need to see their unit frames) - is to talk with them in dedicated chat. And if I don't want to talk to anybody or interact with them somehow - why should I group with them? Only to quit group after 10 minutes of doing my stuff? What can't I do exactly the same, but without explicit grouping with other players? What's the point? Since some moment I simply don't group with anybody principally - I play on my own. And. I've paid for this game to enjoy it and I don't want others to spoil it.

Don't get me wrong. I became asocial at exact the same moment, I became casual - during Cata's pre-patch, when I realized, that changes are too terrible and that I don't want to play this game seriously any more - I want make all my dreams, like my own guild tabard and having all classes and all specs, true. I don't have time for social interaction, that's why I also don't want to have any social obligations in game. For example if I'm too tired after work and don't want to log in today, then I don't want to log in, just because my friends want me to do it. If I have to log out, cuz I need to wake up early tomorrow - I want to do it freely. Or if I have only one hour to play and want to complete my daily stuff - I don't want to be annoyed by my friends. Remember those guys, who ask for "Appear Offline" feature for Battle.net? I would be one of them, if I would have some friends left in game. No friends - no problems. Good news for Blizzard: I'm even more stable, than social players - I won't quit due to losing all ingame friends, like they usually do.

[shonist]

And making content annoying just drives players away.

You still didn't answer the question. Flight removes tedium, make individual tasks faster. Still have to kill the mobs and do the tasks, flight doesn't do that for me.

Why is it so important that players consume content exactly the way the devs want them to? Does an artist stand next to their painting and demand every viewer see exactly what the artist intended?

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I hope so. Can't wait to be done with this nonsense.

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Oh good, so you can agree that Draenor was lacking.

Its very important that you do the content as it is designed. Dont you wanna have flying on raids to skip trash too? world is intender for you to have surprises and wild mobs may wanna catch you.

Flying is senseless within the eatrly months of expac. or until the last content patch is released.

[WowIsDead64]

Its very important that you do the content as it is designed. Dont you wanna have flying on raids to skip trash too? world is intender for you to have surprises and wild mobs may wanna catch you.

Flying is senseless within the eatrly months of expac. or until the last content patch is released.

Would be nice, cuz trash is completely pointless indeed. It exists for immersion purposes too. And, as I've already said, immersion disappears after 100500th run, cuz completing the same raid every week - is counter-immersive thing in a first place. What the point of war in a world, where nobody can actually die and everybody (even bosses) can simply res on a graveyard?

[Saracens]

I can't believe this thread is still going?! It seems like, whether you view the social and antisocial ups and downs of the way PvE works, or the reasons for removing flying it doesn't change what's done. What's left to discuss? (not trying to be crass, just asking.)

[Maudib]

Its very important that you do the content as it is designed. Dont you wanna have flying on raids to skip trash too? world is intender for you to have surprises and wild mobs may wanna catch you.

Flying is senseless within the eatrly months of expac. or until the last content patch is released.

Not necessary, they reduced trash a long time ago... for the VERY reason of saving time it takes to run dungeons and raids.

You know... convenience.

Once you are able to actually play Legion like those of us in beta, you will find that world quests... are the same quests you did leveling. The exact same. Flying at max level does not prevent you from doing the content as designed.

The whistle that summons a "hearth" to the nearest flight path? Does that not allow you to bypass "content as it was designed?"

Why do you suppose they added that? Maybe because when you are doing the same leveling quests for the 327th time, they are spread all over the continent. Is it s good design to have you spend more time flight pathing AKF or organizing your inventory, than actually you know "making war" in warcraft?

[wing5wong]

Not necessary, they reduced trash a long time ago... for the VERY reason of saving time it takes to run dungeons and raids.

You know... convenience.

Once you are able to actually play Legion like those of us in beta, you will find that world quests... are the same quests you did leveling. The exact same. Flying at max level does not prevent you from doing the content as designed.

The whistle that summons a "hearth" to the nearest flight path? Does that not allow you to bypass "content as it was designed?"

Why do you suppose they added that? Maybe because when you are doing the same leveling quests for the 327th time, they are spread all over the continent. Is it s good design to have you spend more time flight pathing AKF or organizing your inventory, than actually you know "making war" in warcraft?

A 5 min cd return to a fp after you did the quest is very different to on demand 310increased, free of terrain direct Ato B travel.

The quests being the same is irrelevant. Dailies were the same. They rotate in.

[WowIsDead64]

Not necessary, they reduced trash a long time ago... for the VERY reason of saving time it takes to run dungeons and raids.

You know... convenience.

Once you are able to actually play Legion like those of us in beta, you will find that world quests... are the same quests you did leveling. The exact same. Flying at max level does not prevent you from doing the content as designed.

The whistle that summons a "hearth" to the nearest flight path? Does that not allow you to bypass "content as it was designed?"

Why do you suppose they added that? Maybe because when you are doing the same leveling quests for the 327th time, they are spread all over the continent. Is it s good design to have you spend more time flight pathing AKF or organizing your inventory, than actually you know "making war" in warcraft?

I guess, this whistle is obtainable via some hard quest or achievement? Something like Aviana's feather? I ask, just because I don't even know, how to obtain Aviana's feather. One of the reasons, why Blizzard remove things from game - they want us...to earn them again. Including flying itself. Remember water striders? This is bad sign. Wow lacks content and Blizzard want us to do things, we've already done, to earn rewards, we've already earned. Blizzard, wanting to add several travelling QOL things as rewards, remove flying in order to make this things meaningful, when they actually aren't. +20% ground speed? Pffffff...

Blizzard don't regret, that they've added flying - they regret, that they started to offer it "for free" at the end of WotLK, cuz it was mandatory to properly do content. Players got used to it and now refuse to jump through hops to "earn" it again.

[Deleted]

I guess, this whistle is obtainable via some hard quest or achievement? Something like Aviana's feather? I ask, just because I don't even know, how to obtain Aviana's feather. One of the reasons, why Blizzard remove things from game - they want us...to earn them again. Including flying itself. Remember water striders? This is bad sign. Wow lacks content and Blizzard want us to do things, we've already done, to earn rewards, we've already earned. Blizzard, wanting to add several travelling QOL things as rewards, remove flying in order to make this things meaningful, when they actually aren't. +20% ground speed? Pffffff...

Blizzard don't regret, that they've added flying - they regret, that they started to offer it "for free" at the end of WotLK, cuz it was mandatory to properly do content. Players got used to it and now refuse to jump through hops to "earn" it again.

Aviana's Feather is provided by a quest from your tavern / inn in the Garrison. I had this building in every setup on level 3 because of extra gold missions, so I was able to get the item on every character. But the nature of providing quests in a random pattern was a big turn-off for me, also I hated the item. Being propelled high up in the air and then have to navigate gliding is bothersome, and not really well impemented. You have little influence on the process, lose most of the control of your character. I guess, the whistle would be an improvement to that.

Gliding is bullshit in WoW, because in reality, you can use air currents and wind to move around, in WoW, you only go down. That's it. Ah well, I hope they will keep Featherfall for mages....

[Deleted]

The fact that you don;t play this "kids game" anymore and still come here anf argue about something you don't care about is a sign that you need to let go. SO much negativity and anger that you should seek help for.

I think there are a lot of people doing this... and somehow trying to find solace in other people's dissatisfaction seems like a way to cope. Please don't do that... it only leads to more regret and more self-loathing.

It was you that kept trying to widen the discussion, basically because you don't actually read what anyone says.

I just pop in here to see what nonsense you are all arguing about this week - It quite funny watching people sink hours of their lives into something so trivial as flying in a game that offers less depth than Minecraft. It shows a complete lack of perspective in life.

I don't really care about it at all but I will call out bollocks when I see it.

[WowIsDead64]

Aviana's Feather is provided by a quest from your tavern / inn in the Garrison. I had this building in every setup on level 3 because of extra gold missions, so I was able to get the item on every character. But the nature of providing quests in a random pattern was a big turn-off for me, also I hated the item. Being propelled high up in the air and then have to navigate gliding is bothersome, and not really well impemented. You have little influence on the process, lose most of the control of your character. I guess, the whistle would be an improvement to that.

Gliding is bullshit in WoW, because in reality, you can use air currents and wind to move around, in WoW, you only go down. That's it. Ah well, I hope they will keep Featherfall for mages....

Ahh, yeah, tavern. The problem is in fact, that I started to build taverns in every Garrison recently only, when I no longer needed trading posts. Garrison has flawed design - some buildings provide some "optional" rewards (including mounts, extra gold, etc) and some are mandatory for progression, which kills all the choice. But anyway - I don't even remember, if I've done this quest or not. I guess, I've done dungeon quests, needed for achievement, only. Gliding - isn't bad mechanic. Firefall has it and it's quite fun there. But Firefall also has another important mechanic, that makes this game enjoyable even without flying - Jet Packs. I would agree not to have flying in Wow, if Blizzard would implement jet packs too. Problem with Wow - is that all such mechanics, like climbing, jumping, gliding - are much more realistic in other games, but not in Wow. In Wow they're too clunky. In most cases you almost completely lose control of your character or it's extremely limited. For example, you can trade altitude for speed in Firefall, maximize gliding distance via minimizing speed, i.e. drag, use your jet packs as engines and even STALL.



THAT'S, what I call fun. And in Wow it's just crutch, that Blizzard implement simply to decrease outrage about no flying and provide just another mandatory reward.

[Maudib]

I guess, this whistle is obtainable via some hard quest or achievement?

Nope... they give it to you as part of the intro quests to questing in BI.

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It was you that kept trying to widen the discussion, basically because you don't actually read what anyone says.

I just pop in here to see what nonsense you are all arguing about this week - It quite funny watching people sink hours of their lives into something so trivial as flying in a game that offers less depth than Minecraft. It shows a complete lack of perspective in life.

I don't really care about it at all but I will call out bollocks when I see it.

I see. Well thanks for popping in, but you have lost all credibility with me and like many others that argue about flight, are really just a troll. A very poor one at that.

[Dhrizzle]

Nope... they give it to you as part of the intro quests to questing in BI.

According to WoWhead you need an achievement from getting Friendly with the 5 factions. Did it change recently and who's information is out of date?

[Maudib]

That could still be the case... I was locked out of some quests for a while due to bugs... and I thought it got it from Khadgar in the early quests.. but I guess that's not the case.. Since he was the one that wasn't available to me for a while early on I just assumed the whistle was too.