Talents and Zoom - blizzard, wtf?

[Fabinas]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4692?page=1#18 and forward

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17612331418

There are your arguments, since you both seem unable to discuss the matter at hand. Go read and return later with valid points to defend that Watcher shitpost

[Srg56]

Hi

Was just testing Legion on beta and ptr and two big questions came to my mind

1. Changing talents inside raid/instance won't be as easy and accessible as it used to be in WoD, am I right? How expensive will it be?

2. Why dafuq Blizzard removed macros to zoom out camera further than default? Like... what was wrong about it?

1. This is a stepback from the watering down effect of the numerous QoL changes that have removed any sense of structure from the game world.

2. Perspective plays a huge role in world building and in the experience of being part of the world.

I like the changes, it shows that there are still people working on WoW that know something about what made the game great.

[Deleted]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...4692?page=1#18 and forward

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17612331418

There are your arguments, since you both seem unable to discuss the matter at hand. Go read and return later with valid points to defend that Watcher shitpost

I don't think anyone can actually defend that post or the decision, because it makes no sense. People defending the decision have no ground to stand on because they gain absolutely nothing from having the choice removed for other people, yet they still support it anyway. They say they never used it, even better, so it doesn't affect them either way but they still want it gone.

[Leih]

You should see this camera thing on the Blizz forums quite a few are saying they wont buy Legion because of this change..

Well, to clarify, I meant it's not a dealbreaker for me

[ManiaCCC]

I don't think anyone can actually defend that post or the decision, because it makes no sense. People defending the decision have no ground to stand on because they gain absolutely nothing from having the choice removed for other people, yet they still support it anyway. They say they never used it, even better, so it doesn't affect them either way but they still want it gone.

Acutally, I gain something from it. Finally I don't feel like a scrub in PvP, when I wont use camera macro. I actually enjoy seeing my character and not just dots all the way zoomed out. And while I never ever whined about it, I always felt I am putting myself to disadvantage not using this macro. Now, I am quite happy about it.

Also Field of View is design decision which is quite important. You have to know, what your players can and will see and you have to set it somehow and design around it. For years there were slider which dictates how far you can zoom out however there were hidden command to zoom even more. And everyone, who didn't know about that or didn't want to use it was in clear disadvantage.

So while I can see why you disagree with it, you can't say there is nothing to defend or no point in it. Actually, there is.

BTW Fabinas, I read both topics and as I said before, anyone can disagree with their decision and tell, why they feel it is wrong, but you can't disprove their decision, because blizzard has a point too. What you posted was just another opinion piece and arguments based around huge bosses. Maybe, just maybe blizzard don't want to have unlimited view over battlefield? If this is the case ( and I believe it is) you can, I repeat myself, just disagree with it but that's it.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Am I correct about this:

Blizzard adjusted camera zoom on Legion because big part of community never knew about those camera macros, and therefore it wouldn't be fair for some part of community to use those macros and some not.

At least that's what I've understood from the blue post...

Yeah, that is the bullshit they provided as justification for the change. Don't you love when they fix things that aren't broken?

[ManiaCCC]

Yeah, that is the bullshit they provided as justification for the change. Don't you love when they fix things that aren't broken?

But in the end, you can't say it is not making a little bit more fair for everyone.

[Morssoe]

Cause they create their own game, not your's. Must be salty to pay for game that you don't like.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

But in the end, you can't say it is not making a little bit more fair for everyone.

Sure, but why are addons being allowed if that is their excuse? Addons provide a far greater advantage, yet they're leaving them in. This is why their justification is bullshit, because it is absolute bullshit to claim "fairness" while ignoring something that is extremely unfair.

[ManiaCCC]

Sure, but why are addons being allowed if that is their excuse? Addons provide a far greater advantage, yet they're leaving them in. This is why their justification is bullshit, because it is absolute bullshit to claim "fairness" while ignoring something that is extremely unfair.

I know there are. And some could be considered even cheats but for me, this is at least baby step in the right direction. Honestly, I really believe everything what could give you advantage in the game should be on by default or have direct control in default UI. whole mods should be just fancy icons, ui skins etc.

[Thontor]

Impossible to say how expensive they'll be, but they're going to be more expensive than 50 silver/talent change, even if you're changing most of them. It's significantly less accessible than current, since I can't buy more from a vendor mount, can't buy them from convenient merchants, I have to buy them from AH (and let's hope there's someone selling stacks of them without a markup, because buying them one by one will be annoying) or make them myself, and the group one is expensive enough to make it a hassle to make. This is a significant quality of life downgrade.

I agree that they will be more expensive per talent change, when using them. But when you take into account that talent changes are free in rested areas and other circumstances, that balances it out a bit.

I don't think it's too much of a hassle to keep an eye on your supply to make sure you have enough.

Personally, i feel they are even more hassle free than the WoD system.

[Deleted]

as for talent swapping dont really care just adjusting some rotation thats about it , .... yeah it was convenient but hey ....

as for the zoom , i'm playing wow 3800x1024 resolution on 3x22 inch monitors ( matrox ) connected , never had issues with wide view or seeing all things around me , yes i did also use the command to max camera , if even i had difficulties in short corner places, small rooms ( raids like icc ) ... but as of legion , the action cam modus is one of the most hidden gem's i'm looking forward to .

[grexly75]

Well, to clarify, I meant it's not a dealbreaker for me

I know, .. It is not a deal breaker for me either, it is just very interesting that to some it is, case of go figure but humans can be a very weird species..

[TEHPALLYTANK]

I know there are. And some could be considered even cheats but for me, this is at least baby step in the right direction. Honestly, I really believe everything what could give you advantage in the game should be on by default or have direct control in default UI. whole mods should be just fancy icons, ui skins etc.

If you buy the bullshit that Holinka spewed, I've got a bridge to sell you. I'll make this simple: Holinka was a lawyer before he went into game design, he gave a lawyer's answer instead of actually addressing the issue. His answer is designed to do nothing but distract, as the logic of it is so absurd and it is quite clear that no other aspect of the game is getting the same treatment.

[ManiaCCC]

If you buy the bullshit that Holinka spewed, I've got a bridge to sell you. I'll make this simple: Holinka was a lawyer before he went into game design, he gave a lawyer's answer instead of actually addressing the issue. His answer is designed to do nothing but distract, as the logic of it is so absurd and it is quite clear that no other aspect of the game is getting the same treatment.

What if I told you that I have this stance for years now. I always felt that camera scripts are little bit too stupid and giving advantage to people who knows about it. I was always for either removing or clamp the camera script command or put it directly into UI menu. And while I prefer the first (current) option, i would be okay even with second one because I would at least know, this camera distance is what they are considering when balancing or creating content.

Even for now, I am not using max camera distance in UI and never ever whine about people who do or are using camera script, but I really believe, this is the step in right direction. Hopefully, they will make more.

[Bepples]

And now you're doing the same that the change is in. I prefer having to choose something and stick with it than changing on the fly unless it's a raiding environment. Jut think about what you're going to do and tailor your spec to it before you leave. Or know where the inns are and plan around that.

"I prefer an unnecessarily restricting choice that adds nothing to the gameplay and actively counteracts the entire purpose of the tiered talent system."

No, you don't. You prefer to defend Blizzard and their bad decisions at all costs. Talents are NOT meant to be a set in stone configuration. If they were, we would still be using talent trees. The ENTIRE REASON FOR EXISTENCE of the talent tiers introduced in 5.0 is to allow for easy and frequent switching between talents. No fucking planning or expensive materials involved. As a BM hunter, I should be switching between Murder of Crows and Barrage depending on whether the fight is single-target or AoE. That sort of situation is EXACTLY what the tier system is meant to help, yet now I cannot switch between those without either having an expensive mat (which isn't even acquirable before Legion actually releases) or constantly hearthing out to a city. That is needlessly restrictive, counter-productive, and it solves approximately ZERO previously-existing issues. The same applies to the rest of you guys:

Why are people spazzing out about the talent changes, Scribes will make things that let raids change out their talents. I mean there was a time when you couldn't change your talents out before so why flip out about going back to that? Maybe on certain fights people with more aoe talents will do better than those w/o and vice versa on other fights. That's not a hard concept to imagine again.

About talents- you got 1 min after entering a instance to swap talents around. Inscribers can make a item that can be sold, that works like a "food feast" just to allow talent changes. I don't see any problems..

The talent thing is fine now that they added inscription tomes to get around it. I'm glad they're making it a little more expensive to switch talents on the fly. These things should be a choice and a bit more of a commitment. In the alpha and even in WoD to some extent it's gotten to the point where you switch talents between trash packs just to gain a bit more speed and DPS and that kind of menu-driven min/maxing just isn't a fun game.

eah was a shame that some folks went all torch and pitchfork over the respec for gold thing and well look where it got us.. Goes to show that some people can be complete idiots..

If you guys "don't see any problems", you are being wilfully ignorant. I especially like the last point about how apparently it was a choice between either gold on respec (who the fuck am I paying, exactly?) or no free talent switching. How about neither? Both those systems are needlessly obstructive. Both specs and talents should be freely switchable. The game should be encouraging as much playstyle diversity as possible. FFXIV allows for free switching between CLASSES at all times, so why is it such an issue to have free switching between specs/talents?

Well... I, like an adult should be able to, say "lets agree to disagree" and you come back saying I'm fanboying simply because you disagree with me. The "dissection and confrontation" is nothing more than children crying like little children refusing to accept what their parents have said. If it's that bad for you then unsub. It's that simple. You honestly simply sound like a child that just wants to cry into a resonating chamber and doesn't want to heard a solid conflicting argument (which I have put forth). The memes were to show you that you were acting like a child. That clearly pissed you off (which was the point of them tbh). You're literally plugging your ears screaming "I'm not listening to you!" when you're told that having a gigantic (200+ yard) field of view trivializes things that are meant to catch you off guard.

No, you really haven't put forth any compelling argument. You are simply parroting what Hazzikostas said, which also happens to be spin-doctoring nonsense. If Hazzikostas said NOTHING, you wouldn't even be posting here because you would have no material.

How much self-loating do you have to have as a consumer to be confronted with bad design choices and simply shrug and say "adapt or leave"? I find myself asking that a lot these days.

If the zoom out thing was such a huge issue, why did it remain unchanged until suddenly 12 years after the game release it needed a nerf? Absolute nonsense. They should have made the CVar maximum default and leave it like that. There is zero valid reason why they needed to actually nerf the maximum zoom distance. So many boss fights pretty much REQUIRE it, anyway.

I guess I'll put it to you this way. Two people walk into a room. There is a rogue stealthed in the room. One person has a larger stealth detection radius than the other. Who has the advantage? It's the same scenario, but in the field of view scenario you can move your camera left or right to see more if you aren't as zoomed out as the other player. It's meant as a player power nerf. If you refuse to accept that then that's fine. Don't call me a fanboy because you want to cry about it like a little bitch though.

Uh, no, that is NOT the same scenario. Mechanics that are plainly in the open are not stealthed. With your logic, pivoting the camera in certain positions is also cheating and gaining an unfair advantage since "it allows you to see mechanics that are meant to catch you off guard". You are defending a broken and doomed argument and you might as well stop before you make yourself look even more like a deluded Blizzard acolyte.

[ManiaCCC]

No, you don't. You prefer to defend Blizzard and their bad decisions at all costs. Talents are NOT meant to be a set in stone configuration. If they were, we would still be using talent trees. The ENTIRE REASON FOR EXISTENCE of the talent tiers introduced in 5.0 is to allow for easy and frequent switching between talents. No fucking planning or expensive materials involved.

IF this would be the case, why not have all talents active all the time and have shared cooldown within tier?
I have hard time to believe, new talent system was created just for sole purpose to easy switching anytime we want. All these limitations just prove, their intention is a bit different than you think... ergo, you are wrong.

[Bepples]

IF this would be the case, why not have all talents active all the time and have shared cooldown within tier?

One of the worst non-sequiturs I have ever seen. No, that would not contribute in any way to the purpose I outlined. How the hell did you even arrive at this? This would allow you to use, say, Barrage and AMoC in the same fight. That is NOT what the talent tier system is meant to accomplish. You choose which abilities are most advantageous for each upcoming fight. Being able to use ALL of them in one fight, even with a shared cooldown, would entirely defeat the purpose of talents in general.

I have hard time to believe, new talent system was created just for sole purpose to easy switching anytime we want. All these limitations just prove, their intention is a bit different than you think... ergo, you are wrong.

This change came 4 years after the talent tiers being released, and there have been many new developer hires since then. Newsflash: the current dev team is largely incompetent and makes changes like these because they want to make their mark on WoW design but don't actually have the expertise to carry them out properly or the humility to admit they are changing things for the worse. Hell, this talent change came directly from the removal of the pointless and nonsensical gold cost for swapping between specs, so it can be argued that they did this to get back at the players. It's the same "developer first" philosophy that resulted in the infamous flying debacle. They should actually focus on iterative improvements upon the foundations built up over 10 years instead of trying (and failing) to redo everything, only to end up with a product that the developers like but the players don't. The 5 million people who left in the first year of WoD clearly weren't going to put up with that.

As for calling me wrong about the purpose of talent trees, why don't you actually go back and look at Ghostcrawler's stated reasons for the talent overhaul back when it was announced?

http://www.wowhead.com/guide=5.0&tal...g-talent-trees

Read the blue posts in that. In particular (emphasis mine):

Fundamentally, taking into account what we’ve learned about talent trees over the years, we’ve come to the conclusion that the talent tree model where you pick up tiny performance increases here and there (and where there’s, mathematically, nearly always a ‘right’ answer and a ‘wrong’ answer) is not a great model. The Mists talent design is a major revamp that should fix this problem once and for all. Talents should be meaningful game-changers. At absolute worst a given talent may be the right one only situationally, and at best, players will have a lot more customization to make their play-style stand out. Furthermore, the fact that you’ll have more flexibility to change your talents should help keep gameplay fresh, even with that character that you play most often.

With the new system we give you everything you really need automatically, and talents are going to be more interesting 'style' and utility choices than a bunch of stat and damage increases. The choice comes, hopefully, from choosing talents that appeal to how you like to play or what you think would be particularly useful for a specific boss, fight, or encounter, and the ability to swap around points freely while out in the world help reinforce that.

Similar to current functionality, talents selections will be finalized by clicking "Learn" at the bottom of the talent pane; however, a big benefit of removing talent points is that it allows us to let players "re-talent" with more flexibility. Even after players have activated their talents, they won't be completely locked into their choices as they are now. If at any point a player feels that another talent may be more appropriate or fun, he or she can simply select that talent from their tree and click "Learn" again. This can be done on a talent-by-talent basis or, if the situation demands it, all talents can be changed out at once.

So yeah, when you are going to call someone wrong, you better sure up your own position first.

[Archmage Alodi]

You had to buy tome for chaning talents before legion , you still will be doing that in legion. what's the big deal?
That camera distance is stupid, it didn't hurt anyone. removing it will ruin many people's gameplay.

[Fabinas]

Acutally, I gain something from it. Finally I don't feel like a scrub in PvP, when I wont use camera macro. I actually enjoy seeing my character and not just dots all the way zoomed out. And while I never ever whined about it, I always felt I am putting myself to disadvantage not using this macro. Now, I am quite happy about it.

Also Field of View is design decision which is quite important. You have to know, what your players can and will see and you have to set it somehow and design around it. For years there were slider which dictates how far you can zoom out however there were hidden command to zoom even more. And everyone, who didn't know about that or didn't want to use it was in clear disadvantage.

So while I can see why you disagree with it, you can't say there is nothing to defend or no point in it. Actually, there is.

BTW Fabinas, I read both topics and as I said before, anyone can disagree with their decision and tell, why they feel it is wrong, but you can't disprove their decision, because blizzard has a point too. What you posted was just another opinion piece and arguments based around huge bosses. Maybe, just maybe blizzard don't want to have unlimited view over battlefield? If this is the case ( and I believe it is) you can, I repeat myself, just disagree with it but that's it.

I am trying to discuss why Watcher's post and Blizzard's POV on the subject makes absolutely no sense. The only thing i could possibly accept from this post is (my own paraphrasing, feel free to tell me if i didn't understand well) "We like the game to be experienced THAT way from now on." Anything else mentioned in this post, any other argument stated, like parity, tactical advantage etc does not stand against logic. Even your own example is idioticly unreasonable.

"Acutally, I gain something from it. Finally I don't feel like a scrub in PvP, when I wont use camera macro. I actually enjoy seeing my character and not just dots all the way zoomed out. And while I never ever whined about it, I always felt I am putting myself to disadvantage not using this macro. Now, I am quite happy about it."

What i understand from those sentences is that you knew about the macro and you didn't use it on purpose. If that's the case, noone was getting an advantage on you when you knew about it and didn't use it. The bigger camera zoom was silently condoned by Blizzard for years (if it wasn't, it would have been fixed years ago as an unfair tactical advantage in PvP). Don't let me get started on the raid leading aspects, melee/tank concerns (not being able to view the battlefield or worse, "enjoying" the POV of the ankles, calves and knees of huge bosses), people with motion sickness, people BUYING their way to extra screen estate (just use a 4k screen or 2-3 connected screens and there you go, no player parity, p2w tactical advantage) etc.

I understand that this is a design decision. But when i see bullshit as a justification of this design decision, i will call it, though. I would have had more respect in this decision if they said "We believe that this is the right way the game should be experienced." And nothing more. And, even then, as a customer, if i feel that changing something that worked for years is bullshit (like their stance of flying, where the actual consumers forced their design decision to be overturned), i will protest and discuss my points. And i feel i cannot play the game because of this camera change, the time when i will vote with my wallet will come. It is already uncomfortable in Beta. When i start raiding, if the encounters aren't designed around this smaller camera change, i will just cancel my 4 subs. I feel i'm not the only one who will act this way, if we are enough to make Blizzard change their stance, it will be proven, sooner or later.